Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[KWED]

I never said any such thing. That is a big fat straw man.

Yes you did.
The evidence is all over this thread.

 

[Trailblazer]

Erm, selecting only the bits that suit you is the definition of "cherry-picking".

@Seeker of White Light said he reads scriptures from various religions and they all have something that helps him.
He did not say that he selects only the bits that suit him.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes you did.
The evidence is all over this thread.

Prove it or admit you were wrong.

Quote me saying what you claim I said: Bahaullah was just an ordinary man and not a messenger of god. You admitted that he was either dishonest or delusional.

 

[KWED]

Well, maybe. But after all these years, do you know any of such Laws that UHJ enacted that was unfair?

What is the UHJ ruling on homosexuality? Or on women serving on the UHJ?

 

[KWED]

You really do struggle to stop finding fault with me and look at your own faults, don't you?

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

I have no interest in you beyond the words you type here on the subject of religious belief.
I fully expect you to look for faults in my arguments.

That's how debate works.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you are still repeating this obvious lie.
You really have no shame, do you?

I already presented the evidence.
#1496 Trailblazer

 

[KWED]

I believe, not claim, that Baha'u'llah was infallible.

Still struggling with the meanings of words, I see.

That belief will not change tomorrow because it is based upon the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

What, specifically, about his writings makes you think he is infallible?

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself.”

Gleanings, p. 167

Ok. So we can confirm that Bahaullah did actually claim himself that he was infallible.
But didn't you earlier say that he never claimed it himself?

With all due respect, if you struggle with the meanings of basic, individual words, it is no surprise that you get hopelessly confused by the vague and archaic language used in Bahai scripture.

 

[KWED]

@Seeker of White Light said he reads scriptures from various religions and they all have something that helps him.
He did not say that he selects only the bits that suit him.

Them pesky words again!

 

[KWED]

Prove it or admit you were wrong.

Quote me saying what you claim I said: Bahaullah was just an ordinary man and not a messenger of god. You admitted that he was either dishonest or delusional.

I can find more than one example, but it is not my job to do your homework for you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you feel physical pain when @Trailblazer and others, including yourself criticise my views or repeat lies about me?

I never did any such thing. I just said that you stated opinions as if they are facts and I showed where you did so. #1496 Trailblazer

If you think you can prove that those opinions you hold about the Baha'i Faith are facts now is your chance to do so.

That is how a debate works.

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. opinion meaning - Google Search

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

 

[KWED]

I already presented the evidence.
#1496 Trailblazer

And I went through it for you.
#1527

 

[Trailblazer]

I can find more than one example, but it is not my job to do your homework for you.

I never said that Baha'u'llah was just an ordinary man and not a messenger of god.
I never admitted that he was either dishonest or delusional.
NOT EVER.

You cannot find it because it is not there.
I found where you stated an opinion as if it was a fact because it was there.

Case closed.

 

[KWED]

I never did any such thing. I just said that you stated opinions as if they are facts and I showed where you did so. #1496 Trailblazer

If you think you can prove that those opinions you hold about the Baha'i Faith are facts now is your chance to do so.

Is, or is not, Bahaism a small, new religion with relatively few followers?
(Facts - founded 1844, 5 million followers, 0.07 of the world's population)

 

[KWED]

I never said that Baha'u'llah was just an ordinary man and not a messenger of god.
I never admitted that he was either dishonest or delusional.
NOT EVER.

You cannot find it because it is not there.
I found where you stated an opinion as if it was a fact because it was there.

Case closed.

Ah, so the penny finally dropped.

You admitted that your belief in the existence of god and Bahaullah as his messenger was just a belief, an opinion, not a fact and not something that could be proved.
Therefore, you must accept the possibility that there is no god and Bahaullah was just a dishonest or delusional man. It is not impossible. And as Sherlock Holmes said “When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ah, so the penny finally dropped.

You admitted that your belief in the existence of god and Bahaullah as his messenger was just a belief, an opinion, not a fact and not something that could be proved.
Therefore, you must accept the possibility that there is no god and Bahaullah was just a dishonest or delusional man. It is not impossible. And as Sherlock Holmes said “When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

I am sorry, but the Holmes argument is a terrible one. It ignores the fact that one may not simply recognize the right answer since there are almost endless answers. It is like saying 2 + 2 must equal five since every other possible answer that I have checked is wrong. The person may just have not checked 4 as an answer.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Bahaiism is "A very small and new religion, with relatively few followers"
That is indeed a demonstrable fact.
Can't see what you argument is here.

I had no problem with calling that a fact. Look at my post.

You could argue that it is just my opinion that Bahaullah's writings are "meaningless platitudes",

That is exactly what it is, your opinion. In my opinion, it is the Word of God.

but I could just as easily present examples of his writings that perfectly match the dictionary definition of "meaningless platitude". (In fact, I shall start a specific thread on the topic. See you there)

No, you could not do that. It is only your personal opinion that the Writings of Baha'u'llah are meaningless platitudes.

However, the "blindly parroting" bit is not only a demonstrable fact, but you have repeatedly admitted as much your self by saying that you have to accept what Bahaullah says because he is infallible. You do not question his writings.

My accepting what Baha'u'llah wrote and quoting His Writings is not blindly parroting, that is not a fact. That is just your personal opinion of what it is.

Excluding women from a job they are capable of doing simply because they are women is sexist discrimination. FACT! Go check with your lawyer if you disagree.

No, that is not a fact and I already explained why.

Calling homosexuality "immoral" and a "shameful sexual aberration" is homophobia. FACT! Go check with your lawyer if you disagree.

No, that is not a fact and I already explained why.

Burning someone as a punishment is the definition of barbaric. "Savagely cruel" (OED)
I genuinely can't believe that you are trying to defend or justify the practice.

No, that is not a fact and I already explained why.

So basically, your "evidence" that I insist that my "opinion" is "fact" is your claim that some facts that you disagree with are just opinions.

Your opinions are not facts, they are opinions. I already showed why.

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. opinion meaning - Google Search

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: No, I did not say that God might not exist and Baha'u'llah might have just been a dishonest or delusional man.

KWED said: But that is what you implied with the words you used....
"It is a religious belief that God exists and Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. It is not a fact"
If you admit that it is not a fact, but merely an opinion, a belief, then you must accept the possibility that it could be wrong and that God does not exist and that Bahaullah was therefore dishonest or delusional.
It is the logical conclusion of rational thought.

No, just because it is not a fact that God exists and Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God that does not mean that I accept the possibility that it could be wrong and that God does not exist and that Baha'u'llah was therefore dishonest or delusional. I do not accept that possibility.

That is not a logical conclusion at all. It is you taking what I said and turning it into what you think it means. That is called the fallacy of jumping to conclusions.

You have repeatedly stated that you are obliged to follow what he wrote, that you don't have the authority to question the rules, that you just accept god's law. That is blindly following dogma.

No, I did not say that I am obliged. I said I choose to follow what He wrote. I choose to accept God's Law. I have free will so I have a choice.

There is nothing blind about it since I do it with eyes wide open, knowing WHY I am doing it..

Which is why, despite the above, you also claim to disagree with Bahaullah, but still think he's right.

*sigh*

I can disagree with Baha'u'llah and still think He is right because I can put my ego aside.
That is nothing to sigh about. It is actually a good thing, would you but know it.

“For, no veil is greater than egotism and no matter how thin that covering may be, yet it will finally veil man entirely and prevent him from receiving a portion from the eternal bounty.”
Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 371-372

 

[KWED]

I am sorry, but the Holmes argument is a terrible one. It ignores the fact that one may not simply recognize the right answer since there are almost endless answers. It is like saying 2 + 2 must equal five since every other possible answer that I have checked is wrong. The person may just have not checked 4 as an answer.

Yes, obviously.
What if eliminating the impossible leaves several possible but mutually exclusive options?
It was purely for the benefit of @Trailblazer's level of critical thinking.

 

[KWED]

I had no problem with calling that a fact. Look at my post.

That is exactly what it is, your opinion. In my opinion, it is the Word of God.

No, you could not do that. It is only your personal opinion that the Writings of Baha'u'llah are meaningless platitudes.

My accepting what Baha'u'llah wrote and quoting His Writings is not blindly parroting, that is not a fact. That is just your personal opinion of what it is.

No, that is not a fact and I already explained why.

No, that is not a fact and I already explained why.

No, that is not a fact and I already explained why.

Your opinions are not facts, they are opinions. I already showed why.

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. opinion meaning - Google Search

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

So you are claiming that facts are just opinions when they don't suit you.
Which was kinda my point in the first place.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok. So we can confirm that Bahaullah did actually claim himself that he was infallible.
But didn't you earlier say that he never claimed it himself?

Do you see the word infallible in the quote from Baha'u'llah?