• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Those laws are in the past.

We need to embrace the new Laws. They are for our benefit, not God's.

Sorry busy back at work and will be away most of this week at conferences.

Regards Tony
And thank God they are in the past, but... were they ever really from God? Baha'is act as if God put laws out there that were needed at the time, and then he changed them as time progressed and people advanced spiritually. But these laws were never universal. Each people, each culture had their own laws, and, in fact, their own Gods and religion. The coming of a new messenger to a specific place and to a specific people never changed the beliefs and the laws of other people... until those people, that thought their God was the truth, imposed their beliefs and their laws on others by conquering them and forcing them to comply with "God's" laws and religion.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
There could be truth in it. Knowing the bigger picture might enable one to understand the interpolations and misinterpretations, perhaps.

Imho, the bahai religion is incomplete in itself and have defective understanding as well, though I consider it more progressive than the preceding Abrahamic religions.
I pretty much agree. It can be made to fit the Abrahamic religions without too much trouble. Even then, Christianity is still a problem for them. But to fit the Dharmic religions in also? And it's just so difficult to find quotes from the Baha'i founders than even bother with tying them into the "progression" of God revealing his truth.

I know Baha'is believe in the Quran. And they say, with some qualifiers, that they believe in the Bible. But I don't know of any Baha'i quote that supports the belief in any Hindu or Buddhist Scripture as being true and from the one God that they believe in.

Then about being "progressive"? That is one complaint... is it already outdated?
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
I pretty much agree. It can be made to fit the Abrahamic religions without too much trouble. Even then, Christianity is still a problem for them. But to fit the Dharmic religions in also? And it's just so difficult to find quotes from the Baha'i founders than even bother with tying them into the "progression" of God revealing his truth.

I know Baha'is believe in the Quran. And they say, with some qualifiers, that they believe in the Bible. But I don't know of any Baha'i quote that supports the belief in any Hindu or Buddhist Scripture as being true and from the one God that they believe in.

Then about being "progressive"? That is one complaint... is it already outdated?
Buddhism and the Bahá'í Faith
by Moojan Momen
1995
Buddhism and the Bahá'í Faith. Buddhism is acknowledged in the Bahá'í writings as one of the great world religions and its founder, the Buddha, is accorded a rank and station equal to that of all of the founders of the great world religions.
The relationship between the Bahá'í Faith and Buddhism can be described in terms of a sharing of religious concepts and of encounters between individuals and communities. The student of the Bahá'í Faith and Buddhism is at first struck by the scarcity of Bahá'í expositions on Buddhist themes.
Buddhism and the Bahá'í Faith
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
"When you understand why you dismiss other beliefs, you will understand why I dismiss yours".
There are things that most of us are going to agree on as being best for the whole of humanity. But that's not the main focus of religious belief.

The Baha'i Faith has some good stuff in it, and we could discuss it. But their main focus is on God and his prophet. And when has belief, a strict belief in any religion, been the best thing for the whole of humanity? Especially those religions that have a whole bunch of laws that supposedly came direct from God and must be obeyed. And that's what the Baha'i Faith is expecting of the people of the world to do... submit to the authority of the Baha'i laws and the decisions made by the UHJ.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
he student of the Bahá'í Faith and Buddhism is at first struck by the scarcity of Bahá'í expositions on Buddhist themes.
That's the problem... What quotes are there from Baha'u'llah on Buddhism or Hinduism? But, of course, Baha'is have to tie in all the major religions into the progression of God revealing his truth from age to age.

One problem that has been discussed with the Baha'is here, is about who was the manifestation that first revealed Hinduism to the people? I don't know? But Hindus made it clear it wasn't Krishna. Then, come to find out, Krishna was only one many incarnations of the God Vishnu. But Baha'is don't talk much about them. But some Hindus don't believe in Krishna. So, it is too much of a generalized guess to say Krishna is the "official" guy that was God's manifestation and that fits into the progression of revealed religions.

Anyway, let me know what else you learn.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
That's the problem... What quotes are there from Baha'u'llah on Buddhism or Hinduism? But, of course, Baha'is have to tie in all the major religions into the progression of God revealing his truth from age to age.

One problem that has been discussed with the Baha'is here, is about who was the manifestation that first revealed Hinduism to the people? I don't know? But Hindus made it clear it wasn't Krishna. Then, come to find out, Krishna was only one many incarnations of the God Vishnu. But Baha'is don't talk much about them. But some Hindus don't believe in Krishna. So, it is too much of a generalized guess to say Krishna is the "official" guy that was God's manifestation and that fits into the progression of revealed religions.

Anyway, let me know what else you learn.
If you looking for faults you find faults everywhere.

I think you seek to find faults in all religions and say "AHA HERE YOU SEE" but all you see in your own fear of not being in controll of your own destiny
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
You really don't understand how language works, do you?
You can say exactly the same thing using completely different words.

"I am eating my lovely dinner"
"One is enjoying a splendid evening repast"

Both convey exactly the same message, despite there being no common words.
You know what's coming... I can see it now, "But 'lovely' and 'splendid' don't mean the same thing". Along with "I" and "One" and "eating" and "enjoying". I think your claim is just your opinion of your beliefs... I think, but I could be wrong, but I'm certain I'm not."
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
For the benefit of those here on this thread that my not have heard them before, can you name a few of them?

There is whold books dedicated to this CG.

What I offer is read the Bible and be amazed at how many passages talking about the last days offer this.

You are aware of one, the Glory of God came by the way of the Gate.

Remember also this is the 'Day of God' when it offers God will cone to us. So consider, as we know God in Essence does not decend into creation, then this is another metephor to tell us that we will see the 'Self of God' walk amongst us, we finally realise that the Messenger is all we can know of God.

So we have passages that the Comforter, or the Lamb, or the Glory of God and God will be with us at the end of ages.

The issue is, like all.prophecy CG. We find what we look for. So mostly people will offer it is only confirmation bias.

I am off 700km to a course for a few days. All the best, Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
If you looking for faults you find faults everywhere.

I think you seek to find faults in all religions and say "AHA HERE YOU SEE" but all you see in your own fear of not being in controll of your own destiny
But... If it is really the Truth from an All-Knowing God, should it be this easy to pick it apart and finds faults? And because there are apparent faults, how do the believers explain them?

Then about "fear"... That's a big thing with the born-again Christians. They'll say, "Have you ever lied?" "Yes." "Then you've broken one of God's Commandments." They go on and show how everybody has sinned, in thought and deed. And then they say, "What is the penalty for sin?" "Death and being sent to hell." "Yes" says the Christian, "But the good news is Jesus has paid the penalty for you."

Unless you're the type of Christian that believes all of that, you, and many of us don't believe it, and even though it is pretty much what the New Testament is saying, we find "fault" with it. We just don't believe it is true. Then, we read the NT and Bible and do what? We pick it apart and find faults and reasons not to believe it everywhere. Typically, we say, "Aha, God created the Earth and Universe in 6 days and it was only a few thousand years ago? No way. How can you believe that is literally true?" But the born-again Christian has committed themselves to a very literal interpretation of the Bible. So, they find ways to try and prove how that is possible. "Look if the world was really billions of years old the oceans would be filled in with silt." And it goes on and on.

If people take their religious beliefs too literally, some of us are going to find faults with their beliefs. Here's one of the main "faults" I have with the Baha'i beliefs... They believe the resurrection was symbolic. I think that the gospel writers wrote about it as if it really happened, and that, somehow, it was some type of physical resurrection, because one writer said that Jesus had flesh and bone and was touched to prove he was real and not a ghost. To me, could be true, or... it could have been made up. Who knows? But I don't believe the Baha'i explanation that the writers intended it to be taken symbolically, as a parable. Here's is Abdul Baha'...
Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection.​
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
So, none of the current UHJ members were not members of the ITC just prior to getting elected to the UHJ? Or... were there a few?

And if there is, I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing. Why would you want to elect people that aren't qualified and haven't proven themselves as being able to handle the task.

It does not matter CG. The electoral process does not include their roles they may already be in.

How we are to vote is recorded by Baha'u'llah. We still have a lot to learn, but the only criteria is that we vote for those we see have the best virtues, morals and qualifications to do the Job.

As you would know, sometimes the best people for the job, are those that are most silent and do not think they are worthy and would never vote for themselves.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
There is whold books dedicated to this CG.

What I offer is read the Bible and be amazed at how many passages talking about the last days offer this.

You are aware of one, the Glory of God came by the way of the Gate.

Remember also this is the 'Day of God' when it offers God will cone to us. So consider, as we know God in Essence does not decend into creation, then this is another metephor to tell us that we will see the 'Self of God' walk amongst us, we finally realise that the Messenger is all we can know of God.

So we have passages that the Comforter, or the Lamb, or the Glory of God and God will be with us at the end of ages.

The issue is, like all.prophecy CG. We find what we look for. So mostly people will offer it is only confirmation bias.

I am off 700km to a course for a few days. All the best, Regards Tony
Okay Tony, thanks. Have a good trip.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
But... If it is really the Truth from an All-Knowing God, should it be this easy to pick it apart and finds faults? And because there are apparent faults, how do the believers explain them?

Then about "fear"... That's a big thing with the born-again Christians. They'll say, "Have you ever lied?" "Yes." "Then you've broken one of God's Commandments." They go on and show how everybody has sinned, in thought and deed. And then they say, "What is the penalty for sin?" "Death and being sent to hell." "Yes" says the Christian, "But the good news is Jesus has paid the penalty for you."

Unless you're the type of Christian that believes all of that, you, and many of us don't believe it, and even though it is pretty much what the New Testament is saying, we find "fault" with it. We just don't believe it is true. Then, we read the NT and Bible and do what? We pick it apart and find faults and reasons not to believe it everywhere. Typically, we say, "Aha, God created the Earth and Universe in 6 days and it was only a few thousand years ago? No way. How can you believe that is literally true?" But the born-again Christian has committed themselves to a very literal interpretation of the Bible. So, they find ways to try and prove how that is possible. "Look if the world was really billions of years old the oceans would be filled in with silt." And it goes on and on.

If people take their religious beliefs too literally, some of us are going to find faults with their beliefs. Here's one of the main "faults" I have with the Baha'i beliefs... They believe the resurrection was symbolic. I think that the gospel writers wrote about it as if it really happened, and that, somehow, it was some type of physical resurrection, because one writer said that Jesus had flesh and bone and was touched to prove he was real and not a ghost. To me, could be true, or... it could have been made up. Who knows? But I don't believe the Baha'i explanation that the writers intended it to be taken symbolically, as a parable. Here's is Abdul Baha'...
Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection.​
You said one very important thing "You don't believe" as you @CG Didymus do not believe in Baha'i teaching, and that is perfectly fine.
But others DO believe in Baha'i teaching, no matter if you understand it or not.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
And thank God they are in the past, but... were they ever really from God? Baha'is act as if God put laws out there that were needed at the time, and then he changed them as time progressed and people advanced spiritually. But these laws were never universal. Each people, each culture had their own laws, and, in fact, their own Gods and religion. The coming of a new messenger to a specific place and to a specific people never changed the beliefs and the laws of other people... until those people, that thought their God was the truth, imposed their beliefs and their laws on others by conquering them and forcing them to comply with "God's" laws and religion.

We have the chance to implement laws in this age that can build strong loving communities CG.

The community I live in suffers as these laws are not part of the way of life here.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You really don't understand how language works, do you?
You can say exactly the same thing using completely different words.

"I am eating my lovely dinner"
"One is enjoying a splendid evening repast"

Both convey exactly the same message, despite there being no common words.
You can say exactly the same thing using completely different words.
However, that does not change the fact that belief and opinion have different meanings.

A belief is a state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case whereas an opinion is a view or judgment formed about something. That is the difference between the two.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So you admit that you do not "know without doubt" that god exists.
You "believe that god exists".
I believe in God and I know without a doubt that God exists.
So, why do you believe god exists?
Your explanation that god chose you to believe in him doesn't work because it presupposes the existence of god. Why do you believe that there is a god there to choose you in the first place?
I believe there is a God because of Baha'u'llah, who was a Manifestation of God.

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49


All of the Manifestations of God were evidence of God, not only Baha'u'llah.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I understand and accept that you have no doubt in your belief that god exists.
But you cannot know he exists.
It is not my "ego" insisting this, it is the meaning of words. The English language. And logic (if it is possible that god does not exist, you cannot know that he does).
Hypothetically, it is possible that God does not exist, but
I believe that God exists and I know that God exists and there is nothing you can do about it, so I suggest you stop trying. It is your ego that keeps insisting what I cannot know.

All knowledge is not factual knowledge that is based upon proof. Not everyone needs proof in order to know that God exists. There is no proof that God exists because God chose not to provide proof, but God did provide evidence by way of the Messengers.

Definition of know

1a(1): to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2): to have understanding of importance of knowing oneself(3): to recognize the nature of : discernb(1): to recognize as being the same as something previously known(2): to be acquainted or familiar with (3): to have experience of

2a: to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of b: to have a practical understanding of knows how to write

Definition of KNOW
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
In this context, "knowledge" and "belief" are not the same thing.
From your own definition... "to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of"

So basically, you are stating that you are certain that your belief is true. And I accept and understand that.
But you cannot claim it is factually true.
I never claimed that my belief is factually true. In fact, many times I have said it is not factually true because God can never be proven to exist as a fact.
You are conflating your belief in god with knowledge of god - because if god does not exist (which you accept as a possibility), you cannot have any knowledge of him. What you think is knowledge would be merely belief or delusion.
I said that 'hypothetically' God might not exist but I do not accept that as a possibility.
I have knowledge of God through Baha'u'llah.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The logical implication of @TransmutingSoul's statement (that only Bahais can vote in Bahai run elections) is that once Bahaullah's dream of a world united under a single Bahai government comes true, the world will be run by a privileged group based on religious belief.
Baha'is do not believe in a world that will be united under a single Baha'i government run by a privileged group based on religious belief. That is your misconception, not what the Baha'i Faith teaches.
 
Top