Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[Trailblazer]

Of course it was a fact that Pluto existed before 1930.
You have serious problems with your understanding of epistemology, Tb.

No, it was not a fact that Pluto existed before 1930 because it was not known until it was discovered.

fact
something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

The object formerly known as the planet Pluto was discovered on February 18, 1930 at the Lowell Observatory in Flagstaff, Arizona, by astronomer Clyde W. Tombaugh, with contributions from William H. Pickering. This period in astronomy was one of intense planet hunting, and Pickering was a prolific planet predictor.Nov 19, 2019

Why is Pluto no longer a planet? - Library of Congress

 

[CG Didymus]

You have repeatedly stated that god's existence is not a fact and can never be proven.
So how did you prove it to be a fact?

Back to the ol' circular logic.
If there is no god, Bahaullah is not his messenger. So how do you know he was a messenger if god's existence if not a fact? After all, the only "evidence" you present for Bahaullah being god's messenger is Bahaullah saying he was god's messenger.
Answer: it is just your opinion/belief.

We all know how it goes... People are told about a religion. They are told why and how they can trust the Scriptures. It sounds good and reasonable to them, so they believe. Then as they apply some of the things taught in the religion to their lives, those things work. Which is seen as a confirmation that the religion is true. Trouble is... it works for any religious type of belief... even Scientology, or, my favorite Christian sect, the snake handlers. Lots of us have been there and "believed" for a time, but then found reasons not to believe. Those of us that gave religion a try thought, at some point, that we knew for sure. We thought we had no doubt about it being true, until... we had a reason to doubt. It's happened to Baha'is, Christians, probably to people every religion. I know a well-known ex-Baha'i musician that converted back to Christianity. It happens. Because too much of religion is taught as an all or nothing commitment. But it's a commitment to things they can never know for sure. So, how can they say that they know for sure?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Then is Christianity a religion that has been "revealed" by a manifestation, or a religion based on hearsay of what people tell us about a manifestation said? Jesus could have written things down and appointed an authorized interpreter, but he didn't. So, God and Jesus weren't concerned that the gospel writers and the others, especially Paul might get things wrong in the way they interpreted the things about Jesus, what he did and what he taught?

I see the Bible was recorded from the Disciples explanations of what Jesus offered CG.

The problem is that no one had authority to interpret those records.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem is that no one had authority to interpret those records.

Nobody except Baha'u'llah.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We all know how it goes... People are told about a religion. They are told why and how they can trust the Scriptures. It sounds good and reasonable to them, so they believe. Then as they apply some of the things taught in the religion to their lives, those things work. Which is seen as a confirmation that the religion is true. Trouble is... it works for any religious type of belief... even Scientology, or, my favorite Christian sect, the snake handlers.

Welcome to God given Choice CG. Funny I was having some reflections in prayer this morning and had a thought to share with you, then low and behold you have the perfect post for that thought.

We can now view the World as a Whole and we can get information on all God given Faiths and explore the complexity of man made faiths.

So we have the Hindu Prophets, one was Krishna. There is writings we can pursue, there are thousands of men, with thousands of ideas you are able to pursue.

We have the Biblical Prophets of the Torah. There is records to read, there is quite a few branches of Jewish thought also available.

We have Buddha, we have writings attributed to Buddha, there is maybe hundreds of thousands of people that have a thought on what those Scriptures mean.

We have Jesus and the New Testament, which was recorded from the Disciples recollection of what Jesus taught to pursue, there is tens of thousands of branches, all with their version of thought one can pursue. The pursuit of other faith concepts is condemned in most schools of thought.

There is Muhammad and the Quran with a couple of Major branches of thought and hundreds of divergent offshoots of those thoughts to pursue.The pursuit of other faith concepts is condemned in most schools of thought, and literally dangerous to one's well being.

There is Baha'u'llah, there is one one hundred volumes of writings to pursue. There is one Faith that offers we must read those and make up our own mind, but we cannot let our opinions create disunity. Bahai.org is where all official Writings are found. The Baha'i Faith is inclusive of all past God given Faith, yet we must make up our own mind to embrace this cause. Yet the Bible already gave this principal.

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

The Quran also introduced to us that there is One God and all the Messengers are from the One God.

So here we are, we have the choice. May we all be guided to the best choices.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

We can now view the World as a Whole and we can get information on all God given Faiths and explore the complexity of man made faiths.

We can surely do that but that is not what Baha'u'llah enjoined us to do.
His Manifestation is God's Manifestation for this age, Baha'u'llah.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

Moreover, Baha'u'llah did not enjoin us to be concerned about the religious dispensations of the past since they do not have the remedy that the world needs in the present age.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

Moreover, if one wants to know if the Baha'i Faith is true, they look at the evidence for Baha'u'llah that Baha'u'llah enjoined us to look at, as noted below, we do not look at all the older faiths. That is not the way to know if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be.

I cannot stress this enough. I have pointed it out to said poster many times.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We can surely do that but that is not what Baha'u'llah enjoined us to do.
His Manifestation is God's Manifestation for this age, Baha'u'llah.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

Moreover, Baha'u'llah did not enjoin us to be concerned about the religious dispensations of the past since they do not have the remedy that the world needs in the present age.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

Moreover, if one wants to know if the Baha'i Faith is true, they look at the evidence for Baha'u'llah that Baha'u'llah enjoined us to look at, as noted below, we do not look at all the older faiths. That is not the way to know if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be.

I cannot stress this enough. I have pointed it out to said poster many times.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

Indeed that is so and indeed it is still a choice many are yet to consider.

Have a great day, work has been busy and will get busier. I have a full WHS System audit to complete at work, it is in 4 weeks. Lots to do.

Regards Tony

 

[samtonga43]

Nobody except Baha'u'llah.

Correction. MrB said he had authority.

 

[Sheldon]

A belief is a state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case whereas an opinion is a view or judgment formed about something. That is the difference between the two.

Thinking something to be the case, would definitely be a judgement formed about it? In fact it would be impossible to think something to be the case, without forming a judgment about it. They're synonymous clearly. The difference is that some beliefs may be subjective opinion, and others not, for example I believe red is the best colour, and I believe the earth is not flat, are both beliefs, but one is entirely subjective, and the other is an objective fact, supported by an irrefutable weight of objective evidence. Prove simply means to demonstrate the truth or existence of (something) by evidence or argument, ipso facto a belief can demonstrably be proved.

 

[Trailblazer]

Correction. MrB said he had authority.

That is not a correction to anything I said.

TransmutingSoul said: The problem is that no one had authority to interpret those records.
Tb said: Nobody except Baha'u'llah.

So I was saying that Baha'u'llah said that He had the authority to interpret those records.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thinking something to be the case, would definitely be a judgement formed about it? In fact it would be impossible to think something to be the case, without forming a judgment about it. They're synonymous clearly.

It is not impossible to believe something to be the case without forming a judgment about it.
But even if one believes and forms a judgment, a belief is not synonymous with an opinion.

Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.
Belief - Wikipedia

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. opinion meaning - Google Search

The difference is that an opinion can be based upon fact or knowledge whereas a belief is not based upon facts.

What is a belief or opinion?

A opinion is a judgement based on facts while a belief is a conviction based on personal values. An opinion is a judgment based on facts, an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence.Jun 29, 2016

What is a belief, and how does it differ from an opinion?

A fact is verifiable. We can determine whether it is true by researching the evidence. This may involve numbers, dates, testimony, etc. (Ex.: "World War II ended in 1945.") The truth of the fact is beyond argument if one can assume that measuring devices or records or memories are correct. Facts provide crucial support for the assertion of an argument. However, facts by themselves are worthless unless we put them in context, draw conclusions, and, thus, give them meaning.

An opinion is a judgment based on facts, an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence. (For example, we know that millions of people go without proper medical care, and so you form the opinion that the country should institute national health insurance even though it would cost billions of dollars.) An opinion is potentially changeable--depending on how the evidence is interpreted. By themselves, opinions have little power to convince. You must always let your reader know what your evidence is and how it led you to arrive at your opinion.

Unlike an opinion, a belief is a conviction based on cultural or personal faith, morality, or values. Statements such as "Capital punishment is legalized murder" are often called "opinions" because they express viewpoints, but they are not based on facts or other evidence. They cannot be disproved or even contested in a rational or logical manner. Since beliefs are inarguable, they cannot serve as the thesis of a formal argument. (Emotional appeals can, of course, be useful if you happen to know that your audience shares those beliefs.)

Writing@CSU

 

[samtonga43]

That is not a correction to anything I said.
TransmutingSoul said: The problem is that no one had authority to interpret those records.
Tb said: Nobody except Baha'u'llah.
So I was saying that Baha'u'llah said that He had the authority to interpret those records.

No. Re-read. You said that nobody except MrB had authority to interpret those records. It's there in black-and-white.

 

[samtonga43]

The difference is that an opinion can be based upon fact or knowledge whereas a belief is not based upon facts.

An opinion is not necessarily based upon fact or knowledge.
It is my opinion that there is a teapot orbiting the moon.

A belief can be based on facts.
I believe that the earth is an ellipsoid.

 

[CG Didymus]

I see the Bible was recorded from the Disciples explanations of what Jesus offered CG.

The problem is that no one had authority to interpret those records.

Regards Tony

We all say the "Bible" as if it is the Christian Scriptures. We should probably ask Jews who has the authority to interpret the Bible. Then for Christians, Paul and the other epistles helped explain things. Do you think Paul and the other writers had authority to interpret the things that Jesus said and taught? And I'd imagine that the bishops and popes gave some reason to back up their claim to having the authority to interpret the NT and the Bible. But, since most of us don't believe they interpreted it correctly, especially when they interpret verses in a way to make Jesus God, that they couldn't have had real authority to do it. Then comes the Protestants... Some of them I think try to let Scripture interpret Scripture as much as possible to avoid the problem, but sooner or later, somethings need to be interpreted. Lucky for you, the Baha'i prophets interpret the Bible and the NT for you. But then that's why I can't believe they are truly from God, because of how they have interpreted several things in the Bible and NT... Especially the resurrection, the Three Woes, and Ishmael instead of Isaac being taken to be sacrificed. Oh, might as well add that Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses are manifestations of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

May we all be guided to the best choices.

Lots of good people following lots of religious beliefs, that according to the Baha'i Faith, aren't 100% correct. Too many choices. And, for some people, the wrong choice is the Baha'i Faith. An example all of us have to deal with is the born-again Christians. Their Scriptures and their interpretation of those Scriptures is the only true one. Jesus is God in the flesh, the only one that people can turn to for salvation and so on. All the rest of the religions, including the Baha'i Faith, are false and the wrong choice. So, what we going to do? Ask questions and evaluate them.

 

[CG Didymus]

Indeed that is so and indeed it is still a choice many are yet to consider.

Have a great day, work has been busy and will get busier. I have a full WHS System audit to complete at work, it is in 4 weeks. Lots to do.

Regards Tony

And what has the Baha'i Faith enjoined its followers to do? And... how many are doing it? I was with my Baha'i friends 50 years ago when they went on Mass Teaching Project to Native Americans and to Minority communities. What happened? Are Baha'i still doing that? Or there's no longer a need? How about Baha'is leaving the cities? As with all organized religions, the bulk of the people do very little.

 

[Trailblazer]

No. Re-read. You said that nobody except MrB had authority to interpret those records. It's there in black-and-white.

I never denied saying that so what is your problem?

 

[Muffled]

Elijah always comes first.

Baha'u'llah has explained this aspect of Elijah in great detail now. This is the return of the Attributes of Elijah in each age. Every Messenger has an Elijah that prepares the way. For Baha'u'llah it was the Bab, who was the Lamb, who was the Gate to the Glory of God.

This Lamb and throne of God is mentioned often in Revelation.

Regards Tony

I believe tht shows why the B man is not from God. Jesus never mentioned attributes. The B man conjured that.

 

[Muffled]

To validate that belief, then one would have to show that the Bab was not Elijah and the Lamb that is to appear at the end of ages, and also show that Baha'u'llah was not the Glory of God who sits upon the throne.

I am happy to share all those passages where the Bab and Baha'u'llah have been foretold and made all things new.

The Bab the Lamb is worthy of justice.

"And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation."
Revelation 5:9

Regards Tony

I believe there is no way to prove whether the Bab was or was not Elijah. The way I figure it is that the B man wanted to appear to be like Jesus so he drummed up the Bab to be his Elijah. That is also a decpeption.

I believe that is Jesus and the end has not come yet.

I believe I already showed that by showing that he does not have the truth.

I believe I am happy to read short passages. I enjoy some religious philosophers but it is a matter of diminishing returns.

 

[Sheldon]

It is not impossible to believe something to be the case without forming a judgment about it.

I am dubious about this claim. How would one arrive at a belief without forming an opinion exactly?

But even if one believes and forms a judgment, a belief is not synonymous with an opinion.

Yes it clearly is, I demonstrated this in my post.

Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.
Belief - Wikipedia

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. opinion meaning - Google Search

Well there you go, I believe the world is not flat, I have formed this opinion based on the facts, they're clearly synonymous.

The difference is that an opinion can be based upon fact or knowledge whereas a belief is not based upon facts.

I believe that the world is not flat, the belief is clearly based upon facts, ipso facto your claim is demonstrably wrong.

A opinion is a judgement based on facts

In my opinion red is a far superior colour to blue, you seem to be wrong, again.

while a belief is a conviction based on personal values.

It can be, but need not be, I believe the world is not flat, the belief is not based on "personal values" at all, you seem to be very wrong, again.

The rest just seem to be you repeating these demonstrably false claims?