I see it is fair for me, my black and white mentality is my character. It is not meant in an all knowing way, far from it, but I like examining things logically and see it as black and white, as such I am short and too the point.
Regards Tony
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Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
I see it is fair for me, my black and white mentality is my character. It is not meant in an all knowing way, far from it, but I like examining things logically and see it as black and white, as such I am short and too the point.
Regards Tony
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
What?
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Trinity:
One Being, Three Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
Jesus was not born of the Holy Spirit.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
From the passage:
“Thou hast gained admittance into the Paradise of God’s Remembrance, through thy recognition of Him Who is the Embodiment of that Remembrance amongst men.” Gleanings, p. 303
As I understand the passage, Baha'u'llah is the representation or expression of the 'Paradise of God’s Remembrance' in a tangible or visible form.
embodiment: the representation or expression of something in a tangible or visible form.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=embodiment+means
I don't know exactly what is meant by God's Remembrance. Maybe my friend @Truthseeker can help me out since He is good at interpreting the Writings.
Definition of remembrance
1 : the state of bearing in mind. 2a : the ability to remember : memory. b : the period over which one's memory extends. 3 : an act of recalling to mind. 4 : a memory of a person, thing, or event.
Remembrance Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I did not say that in the post to which you are replying...
If you think I said that, please provide the link to a post where you think I said that.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Adam, Abraham, Noah – each of them is Jesus returned?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Tony did not say that Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit
Tony said: "They are one and all from the same Holy Spirit, we are born of the human spirit."
Baha'is all have the same beliefs about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, but we have different ways of expressing our beliefs.
This is how I would express my beliefs. I would say that the Messengers are all from God and they all 'brought' God's Holy Spirit to the world.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, an emanation from God which became visible in Jesus Christ when Jesus walked the earth. God is like the sun and the Holy Spirit is like the rays of the sun. God remains in His own high place, and does not ever descend to earth.
Put another way, Jesus Christ was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror, but God did not descend into the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the God was visible and manifest in this mirror.
God the Father is One Being and God when God sent Jesus into this world God sent His Holy Spirit. Jesus then brought God's Holy Spirit to the world and He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. (Gleanings, pp. 85-86)
So, as I see it God the Father worked through Jesus and the Holy Spirit, so they are kind of like a team, and in that sense they can be thought of as three persons of a Trinity.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Ah! Yiou are upset because I point out your logical fallacies first.
But someone has to be first; why not me?
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
This changes nothing. Jesus is not from the Ho;y Spirit.
Baha'is all have the same beliefs about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, but we have different ways of expressing our beliefs.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Do believe you are respectful, unbiased and understand the beliefs of others? Even if you feel this way about yourself, do you think all the Baha'is here on the forum feel that way?
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Thank you. At last!
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Pardon the interruption @Truthseeker but I don't see it that way. These Prophets were the return of the Holy Spirit of God, they were not the return of the man Jesus.
Likewise, Baha'u'llah claimed to be the return of Christ, but He meant He was the return of the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised to send, the Comforter and the Spirit of truth.
It is best to read what He claimed rather than me trying to explain it in my own words because the meaning can get lost in my explanation. Please note that Jesus was designated by Baha'u'llah as the Spirit of God.
“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246
As I understand it, We in the following passage refers to God and all the Messengers collectively, who reside in the spiritual world (heaven).
“We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendour of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 18
“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19
“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85
WE in the following passage refers to Jesus and Baha'u'llah.
“WE, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit (Jesus), and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray… Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) verily, standeth before them.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 92
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Again, and again... Did Krishna claim to be a manifestation or an incarnation? How many Gods did he say existed? Did he teach reincarnation? Then compare that to the Jewish Bible message. Lots of differences. Then compare the Jewish message to the Christian message. Did sin enter the world because of the sin of one man, Adam? Did God requirement that his Son Jesus pay the penalty for that sin by dying on the cross? But then, after dying, did God raise him up back to life?
Religions are all over the place with their beliefs. And what's wrong with that? Except it kind of appears that not all these religions are compatible with each other. So, do Baha'i "make" no differences between the different religions or explain away the differences in a way that makes them all compatible to the Baha'i concept of "progressive" revelation? And how would we evaluate that claim? Of course, coming into without any preconceived notions but letting the facts guide us. But we know that's not what's going to happen. The Baha'is do have a preconceived notion of what the truth is... It is what is taught in the Baha'i teachings.
So, do Baha'is really care what others believe about the different religions? Even what people in those other religions believe about their own religion? No, for Hindus Baha'is tell them the "truth" is that Krishna is a manifestation not an incarnation and that there is only one God, and that one God does not have people get reborn into different human bodies. For Christians Baha'is tell them that they didn't inherit any sin nature or some "original" sin from Adam. And that Jesus is not part of a Trinity. He is a manifestation equal to all the other manifestations. And that he did not physically come back to life. He died and stayed dead and is not the one coming back. Yeah, no differences... after you explain them all away. But are Baha'is correct in saying all of that? Because, essentially, it makes the beliefs of all the other religions wrong.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Nobody has to be first, because people do not need to criticize each other, pointing out their faults.Ah! Yiou are upset because I point out your logical fallacies first.
But someone has to be first; why not me?
I am not upset at all, but I don't like this constant calling out of fallacies because it is not conducive to friendliness and unity thus it is not in keeping with the Baha'i teachings.
“The most hateful characteristic of man is fault-finding.”
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Star of the West, Vol. IV, No.11, p. 192)
“O ye Cohorts of God! Beware lest ye offend the feelings of anyone, or sadden the heart of any person, or move the tongue in reproach of and finding fault with anybody, whether he is friend or stranger, believer or enemy.”
Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas, p. 45
26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10
The Cause of God hath never had any place for denouncing others as infidel or profligate, nor hath it allowed anyone to humiliate or belittle another. Contend and wrangle not with any man, and seek ye not the abasement of any soul. Disparage not anyone’s name, and wish no harm upon anyone. Defile not your tongues with calumny, and engage ye not in backbiting. Lift not the veil from the doings of others, and so long as a person professeth to be steadfast, remonstrate not with him, nor expose him. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, provisional translation quoted in the Universal House of Justice, 2001 Apr 18, Clarification of Various Issues Raised by Provisional Translations, p. 2)
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Mark 14: 61-64 “Once again the high priest interrogated him: ‘Are you the messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?’ Then Jesus answered: ‘I am; and you will see the Son of
Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.’
John 8:58 “Jesus answered them: ‘I solemnly declare it:
before Abraham came to be, I AM.”
[This was the name God gave himself when he first communicated with Moses, Exodus 3:14
“God replied, ‘I am who am.’ Then he added, ‘This is what you shall tell the Israelites: I AM sent me to you.’”]
John 10: 30 ”The Father and I are one.”
John 14:8-11 “’Philip,’ Jesus replied, ‘after I have been with you all this time, you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show
us the Father’?.... Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe because of the works I do.’”
Matt. 11: 27 “Everything has been given over to me by my Father. No one knows the Son but the Father, and no one knows the Father but the Son – and anyone to whom the
Son wishes to reveal him.”
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I did not SAY that Jesus was from the Holy Spirit...
I guess you did not read the bulk of the post you are responding to.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
AGAIN, I did not SAY that Jesus was from the Holy Spirit...
What are you trying to convey with these Bible verses?
I am sure you have your own interpretation (what you believe they mean) but I also have my own interpretation, and who is to say which interpretation is correct?
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Then stop criticizing others.
Easy answer; stop constantly calling out fallacies.
Oh, and please stop throwing around dictionary definitions to people who know what these words mean. It is surplus to requirements and comes over as extremely condescending.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
I did not SAY that Jesus was from the Holy Spirit...
I guess you did not read the bulk of the post you are responding to.
Here is what you said:
Tony said: "They are one and all from the same Holy Spirit, we are born of the human spirit."
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
To try and evaluate whether or not the claims of Baha'u'llah true, in your beliefs, what was expected when Christ returned?
For me, there's more than just Baha'u'llah that has to be explained, but also Muhammad and the Bab. They, according to the Baha'is were also "Christs" or "Messiahs". And with the Bab and Baha'u'llah, there has to be two "end-time" Messiahs with the second one having the greater message. I don't see it. And I also don't see that the Messiah, the main one, would come and get rejected. In Revelation he does away with evil and evil people and rulers. Plus, the tribulation happens before he comes, not after. If you have something different, that's okay. I'll listen.