Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[KWED]

No, I am not wrong and I could easily prove it if I had time to back and look at the posts.
He said that certain things were a fact when they were not factual, they were only HIS opinion.

So you are still repeating this obvious lie.
You really have no shame, do you?

 

[KWED]

The reason I feel physical pain when others are physical or mentally critiqued or attacked is because of being an empath.

Do you feel physical pain when @Trailblazer and others, including yourself criticise my views or repeat lies about me?

Its truly unpleasant to see how Baha'is have to go through this every day because others disagree in their beliefs.

I hate being repeatedly punched and kicked in the face. It is truly unpleasant.
Because of this, I do not enter the octagon and challenge MMA fighters. Those that do cannot complain about the punches and kicks they receive. And people in the crowd shouting "stop it you bully" at one of the contestants just look silly.

 

[Spirit of Light]

This is quite the admission.
Firstly, it illustrates your dishonesty as you repeatedly claimed that you had not said that you do not agree with everything Bahaullah wrote, despite actually saying it.
Secondly, it shows that whatever you say is utterly meaningless as you might say the exact opposite the next day (and often do).

This is literally insane!
How can you expect to debate people on your beliefs if you beliefs change from day to day?
How do you even know what you believe?

So one day you agree with everything that Bahaullah said and believe he was infallible, the next morning you wake up and you have changed your mind and think he was wrong about some stuff and therefore not an infallible messenger of god. A day later, you have changed your mind again.

@Seeker of White Light has a different approach to you. He does not blindly follow dogma. He cherry-picks scripture to suit the circumstances to avoid the kind of mess you keep getting yourself into.
You claim that Bahaullah was the infallible messenger of god and whatever he wrote is the truth and must be followed without question (although you also claim that he was wrong about some things - but you admit that you are wrong to think he is wrong, meaning that you don't actually think he was wrong ).

I don't cherrypick, I just use scriptures in a practical way.

 

[KWED]

Disagreement is not the problem, you are free to disagree with those who believe different than yourself.
But why pushing and pushing to fault someone with a personal belief?

You're still not understanding how adversarial debate works, are you?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Do you feel physical pain when @Trailblazer and others, including yourself criticise my views or repeat lies about me?

I hate being repeatedly punched and kicked in the face. It is truly unpleasant.
Because of this, I do not enter the octagon and challenge MMA fighters. Those that do cannot complain about the punches and kicks they receive. And people in the crowd shouting "stop it you bully" at one of the contestants just look silly.

I feel unpleasant no matter who do it.
Unfortunately sometimes its nessesary to try to stop people like yourself from harming religion.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You're still not understanding how adversarial debate works, are you?

It is all the nasty characters a few of you use about people like @Trailblazer or other Baha'is that I trying to end in RF.

 

[KWED]

KWED said: Bahaiism is "A very small and new religion, with relatively few followers". That is a demonstrable fact.
"followers, who blindly parrot the meaningless platitudes of their charismatic leader" - we repeatedly see Bahai's here quoting the vague platitudes of Baha'u'llah. That again is a demonstrable fact.
You may not agree with all that, but it is not merely opinion. Ironically, that it is just option is just your opinion.
#1118 KWED, Friday at 1:05 AM

"Bahaiism is "A very small and new religion, with relatively few followers"
That is indeed a demonstrable fact.
Can't see what you argument is here.

OPINION: Bahaiism is "followers, who blindly parrot the meaningless platitudes of their charismatic leader" - we repeatedly see Bahai's here quoting the vague platitudes of Baha'u'llah.

It is a FACT that Baha’is quote the Writings of Baha’u’llah but it is an OPINION that we blindly parrot the meaningless platitudes of our charismatic leader. It is not a demonstrable fact since you cannot prove that the Writings of Baha'u'llah are meaningless platitudes.

You could argue that it is just my opinion that Bahaullah's writings are "meaningless platitudes", but I could just as easily present examples of his writings that perfectly match the dictionary definition of "meaningless platitude". (In fact, I shall start a specific thread on the topic. See you there)
However, the "blindly parroting" bit is not only a demonstrable fact, but you have repeatedly admitted as much your self by saying that you have to accept what Bahaullah says because he is infallible. You do not question his writings.

The gender discrimination, homophobia and barbaric punishments are facts. They are there in black and white in Bahai scripture.
Opinion only comes into it because I think those things are morally unacceptable, but you see than as morally acceptable.
#1217 KWED, Sunday at 3:35 AM

Gender discrimination:

Your claim that the Baha'i ruling that prohibits women from serving on the UHJ is gender discrimination is not a fact. That the exclusion is unjust or prejudicial treatment is nothing more than a personal opinion.

Discrimination: the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
discrimination meaning - Google Search

Unjust: not based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair.
unjust means - Google Search

Prejudicial: harmful to someone or something; detrimental.
prejudicial means - Google Search

Homophobia:

Homophobia: dislike of or prejudice against gay people.
homophobia means - Google Search

FACT: There is a Baha’i Law that prohibits homosexual sex.

OPINION: The Baha'i Law means Baha'i Faith teaches homophobia, dislike of or prejudice against gay people.

Barbaric punishments:

FACT: Baha’i Law states:

86. Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn; should anyone deliberately take another’s life, him also shall ye put to death. # 62

The law of Bahá’u’lláh prescribes the death penalty for murder and arson, with the alternative of life imprisonment (see note 87).
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 203

OPINION: This is a barbaric punishment. That is not a fact. It is only your opinion, but in my opinion it is not barbaric. Got any facts that prove it is barbaric? If not, it is only a personal opinion.

Excluding women from a job they are capable of doing simply because they are women is sexist discrimination. FACT! Go check with your lawyer if you disagree.

Calling homosexuality "immoral" and a "shameful sexual aberration" is homophobia. FACT! Go check with your lawyer if you disagree.

Burning someone as a punishment is the definition of barbaric. "Savagely cruel" (OED)
I genuinely can't believe that you are trying to defend or justify the practice.

EXAMPLE #3: Stating opinions as if they are facts

That is just the same point you raised earlier.

So basically, your "evidence" that I insist that my "opinion" is "fact" is your claim that some facts that you disagree with are just opinions.
There is one possible exception, where my terminology was not precise enough. So I withdraw that statement and replace it with "blindly parroting scripture".
Happy now?

 

[KWED]

Every prophet is a form of a manifistation of God, they speak the truth at the level of wisdom they have cultivated. Baha'u'llah may have been one of the prophests manifesting Gods wisdom on earth.

How do you tell if a self-proclaimed prophet really is a messenger of a real god?

 

[KWED]

Yes, I believe Baha'i hold truth in the teaching for today, but Baha'i Faith is only one religion. Others holds truth too.

Do you think all Bahai teachings hold truth, and all teachings of all other religions?

 

[KWED]

I don't cherrypick, I just use scriptures in a practical way.

"I don't cherry-pick scripture. I just take what is useful or meaningful from each one".
If you do not accept every scripture in its entirety, you are cherry-picking, by definition.

 

[KWED]

I feel unpleasant no matter who do it.

But I haven't seen you telling others to stop attacking me. In fact, you have been upvoting their attacks. Something smells off...

Unfortunately sometimes its nessesary to try to stop people like yourself from harming religion.

Why should religion be protected from criticism?

 

[KWED]

It is all the nasty characters a few of you use about people like @Trailblazer or other Baha'is that I trying to end in RF.

What "nasty characters"?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Do you think all Bahai teachings hold truth, and all teachings of all other religions?

Yes, seen from different P.O.V they all teach truth in my understanding

 

[Spirit of Light]

What "nasty characters"?

Every day saying they are lying, strawman fallacy, ignorant, out of reality, double standard, claiming the believer say or believe something they do not say or believe, as just a few example.
Just because you don't believe in religious teaching does not mean others believe it to be true.

Those kind of words are not needed in an adult discussion or debate.
Other than that you and ithers are of course in your right to disagree.

 

[Spirit of Light]

But I haven't seen you telling others to stop attacking me. In fact, you have been upvoting their attacks. Something smells off...

Why should religion be protected from criticism?

I only give you same medicine you give them.
I don't try to attack you, only to get you to leave certain people alone.

 

[KWED]

Yes, seen from different P.O.V they all teach truth in my understanding

I meant, the entirety of scripture of all religions.
Do you accept all of it or do you make valued judgements about the validity or acceptability of some elements?

But I'd be interested to know what you believe the truth taught by the Norse or Mesoamerican gods is.

 

[KWED]

Every day saying they are lying, strawman fallacy, ignorant, out of reality, double standard, claiming the believer say or believe something they do not say or believe, as just a few example.

Ironically, this is a straw man of your own.
The problem is sometimes (often, in the case of some apologists here) that they don't understand the implication, or even the meaning of what they are saying, or that they are sometimes dishonest, ill-informed, contradictory, hypocritical, yes.
Don't shoot the messenger!

Just because you don't believe in religious teaching does not mean others believe it to be true.

Sorry, but that makes no sense.

Those kind of words are not needed in an adult discussion or debate.

What kind of words?

 

[KWED]

I only give you same medicine you give them.

Look, I don't mind people criticising me or attacking my arguments. I welcome it as part of healthy debate.
However, you have shown yourself to be somewhat hypocritical.

I don't try to attack you,

But you do. Which is something you criticise others for.

only to get you to leave certain people alone.

Still don't understand your point here. This is an open, public, religious debate forum.
People present claims, arguments, etc.
Others challenge, criticise, refute them, etc.
If people don't want to be repeatedly punched and kicked, they shouldn't voluntarily don gloves, get into the cage with an MMA fighter, and start trash talking.
Just a thought.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Ironically, this is a straw man of your own.
The problem is sometimes (often, in the case of some apologists here) that they don't understand the implication, or even the meaning of what they are saying, or that they are sometimes dishonest, ill-informed, contradictory, hypocritical, yes.
Don't shoot the messenger!

Sorry, but that makes no sense.

What kind of words?

Words that are ment to hurt those who have a personal faith in God who practice according to their understanding of the teaching.

Not everyone practice 100% every word in the scriptures

 

[Spirit of Light]

Look, I don't mind people criticising me or attacking my arguments. I welcome it as part of healthy debate.
However, you have shown yourself to be somewhat hypocritical.

But you do. Which is something you criticise others for.

Still don't understand your point here. This is an open, public, religious debate forum.
People present claims, arguments, etc.
Others challenge, criticise, refute them, etc.
If people don't want to be repeatedly punched and kicked, they shouldn't voluntarily don gloves, get into the cage with an MMA fighter, and start trash talking.
Just a thought.

By bye @KWED i block you now, due to your lack of understanding