Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[Trailblazer]

So you now accept that you unquestioningly follow dogma.

I follow it but not unquestioningly.

"Human" and "divine" (godly) are two separate and contradictory concepts.
Simply quoting some who claims that they are both human and divine does not resolve this.
If I told you I was both dead and alive, would you accept it as a fact?

They are different but not contradictory. Messengers of God are part human and part divine.
They have a twofold nature, a human nature and a divine nature, and that is how that can understand humans and understand God and why they can act as mediators between God and man.

This is logical, if you bother to think about it instead of rejecting it out of hand. You can never learn anything if you reject everything people say.

 

[CG Didymus]

dogma
/ˈdɒɡmə/

1. a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

Regards Tony

But Baha'u'llah is an "authority" and what he says is taken as the incontrovertible truth. So, should we be "dogmatic" about the beliefs that say that homosexuals have something wrong with them? If you're a Baha'i, I think the answer has to be "yes". Like some Christians say, "The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it." The Bible is their authority. With Baha'is, if Baha'u'llah said it, that's it. It is the truth from God himself. I think the word fits, but if you don't like it, that's fine with me. It's not a word I normally use, even with Christians.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which one are you talking about here, because from my position I could be listening to a Bahai and an Ahmadi.
There is no objective difference.

Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad is a false prophet, Bahaullah is a Messenger of God who got a message from God.
There is an objective difference if one actually looks at the evidence.

Once again, Ahmadis will make exactly the same claim.
Neither of you can present any evidence or rational argument.
To the objective observer, there is no reason to accept either's claim.

Once again, they can claim anything they want to claim, but they cannot prove what they are claiming.
Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad has not fulfilled any Bible prophecies, Baha'u'llah has done so on the ground.

By contrast, Baha'is have proven what we are claiming in books such as
Thief in the Night by William Sears

The book is kind of long to read so if you want a briefer look at some of the prophecies you can watch this 10 minute video.

 

[CG Didymus]

You said one very important thing "You don't believe" as you @CG Didymus do not believe in Baha'i teaching, and that is perfectly fine.
But others DO believe in Baha'i teaching, no matter if you understand it or not.

Well, some of the things that religious people believe is easy to understand why they believe it. A lot of it is that they have put they trust in the prophet and the Scriptures of the religion. And, even if other people and most scientists say they are wrong, they don't care... They believe their Scriptures and prophet over what others think is true. But Baha'is say they believe in science and science and religion must go hand and hand. Yet, some beliefs in the Baha'i Faith can't be proven true by science.

 

[Trailblazer]

@TransmutingSoul said "[Bahaullah's writing] can have many meanings."
If something can have "many meanings", it is not clear, by definition.

That is completely illogical. Scriptures can have more than one meaning and more than one meaning can be correct.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

Baha’u’llah was the Representative of God among men and He appointed interpreters through His Covenant, so their interpretation is the bottom line for Baha'is. That does not mean other interpretations are incorrect, but if they contradict the Baha'i interpretation we believe they are incorrect.

Also, you have several times admitted that you don't understand god's message, so again, it cannot be clear.

Again, that is completely illogical. Just because "I" do not understand something that does not mean it is not clearly written. It just means I am incapable of understanding it at the time, so I strive to try to understand it. That is what Baha'i study classes are all about.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Well, some of the things that religious people believe is easy to understand why they believe it. A lot of it is that they have put they trust in the prophet and the Scriptures of the religion. And, even if other people and most scientists say they are wrong, they don't care... They believe their Scriptures and prophet over what others think is true. But Baha'is say they believe in science and science and religion must go hand and hand. Yet, some beliefs in the Baha'i Faith can't be proven true by science.

A day or two ago I posted a saying from Baha'u'llah about a Baha'i should always investigate for him/her/their own benefit, so also to use science if nessesary in the quest to find truth so at least for Baha'is its not just to read the scriptures and follow it just because it say something.

Blindly follow without asking ones self "how can this be" or " does this really explain what I see in the real world"
Can lead to lack of understanding.

 

[CG Didymus]

We have the chance to implement laws in this age that can build strong loving communities CG.

The community I live in suffers as these laws are not part of the way of life here.

Regards Tony

Okay, what are we going to do with the law-breakers? What are we going to do with people breaking the moral laws about sexual behavior? We're not going to be able to stop people from "loving" people in all the wrong places and with all the wrong people. And even, like I keep saying, our leaders are also guilty of doing it.

Then there's is, what I think is a worse problem, is that people, including the religious leaders, are doing it, but keeping it secret. And that includes those that want to have sex with others of the same gender. The law won't stop the behavior. It'll only put them back in the closest. What good is that going to do? Oh, and the other problem, getting to authoritarian about enforcing the religious laws. And you know some of those authoritarian enforcers are going to be some of the worst culprits.

God couldn't stop the behavior by having them stoned to death, so how is giving them a fine going to stop them? But really... supposedly God made people. And he gave them hormones and a tremendous amount of pleasure from doing it. But then says not to do it and not to think about... to not even do it with yourself? But only when married and only to the person you're married to? Are you sure that God really is the one that came up with these moral laws?

'Concerning your question whether there are any legitimate forms of expression of the sex instinct outside of marriage: According to the Baha'i Teachings no sexual act can be considered lawful unless performed between lawfully married persons. Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse...

"Masturbation is clearly not a proper use of the sex instinct, as this is understood in the Faith. Moreover it involves, as you have pointed out, mental fantasies, while Baha'u'llah, in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, has exhorted us not to indulge our passions and in one of His well-known Tablets Abdu'l-Baha encourages us to keep our 'secret thoughts pure'. Of course many wayward thoughts come involuntarily to the mind and these are merely a result of weakness and are not blameworthy unless they become fixed or even worse, are expressed in improper acts. In 'The Advent of Divine Justice', when describing the moral standards that Baha'is must uphold both individually and in their community life, the Guardian wrote:

'Such a chaste and holy life, with its implications of modesty, purity, temperance, decency, and clean-mindedness, involves no less than the exercise of moderation in all that pertains to dress, language, amusements, and all artistic and literary avocations. It demands daily vigilance in the control of one's carnal desires and corrupt inclinations.'

(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, a copy of which was sent to the compiler with a letter dated March 8, 1981; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1220)​

 

[Trailblazer]

What was the OWO that was rolled up, and what was the NWO that replaced it? And was it the Bahai utopia that Bahullah promised, or does that NWO become another OWO that in turn must be rolled up and replaced? If do, how many times will this happen and how will we know e=when we have reached the final, actual NWO>

As his writings are clear, you will be able to give me a clear answer.

"Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead."
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

The OWO is the present-day order, the order that existed when Baha'u'llah wrote that, the order that still exists and will continue to exist until the NWO is built. Once the NWO is built, the NWO will not become another OWO that in turn must be rolled up and replaced.

The tearing down of the OWO and the building up of the NWO is a 'process' that is going on simultaneously. A building needs to be torn down before a new building can be built in its place. As one building is torn down another building will be built up. There are many buildings that need to be built and these represent the various components of the political and social order.

The building of the NWO will continue into the future and I do not know that there will be a final actual NWO since this is not stipulated in the Baha'i Writings.

That passage clearly shows that Bahullah's message was not clear and its implication needed to be clarified.
QED.

No, it clearly demonstrates that we need to read ALL the Baha'i Writings, not just one passage, if we want to understand the message.

Once again, that is rather vague and allows all sorts of interpretations. For example, it sounds not dissimilar to the old British Empire.

That's why we need to read ALL the Baha'i Writings if we want to understand. The subject is dealt with in many of the Baha'i Writings but there is a whole book on this subject:

The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh

 

[Trailblazer]

Whoah there!!
You just claimed that god's message was clear. Now you are saying that in can have different meanings.
*flip*
*flop*

As I said in a previous post, the Baha'i Writings can be interpreted in various ways because they can have more than one meaning, all of them correct. Moreover, no two Baha'is will interpret them 'exactly' the same way since we all have a different thoughts and life experiences.

Sorry if that is above your level of understanding, but if you are not even trying to understand you never will.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you looking for faults you find faults everywhere.

Good point, and that is exactly what has been going on for years.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think you seek to find faults in all religions and say "AHA HERE YOU SEE" but all you see in your own fear of not being in controll of your own destiny

Another good reflection. Some people do not want to submit to God's will because it is not what they want or agree with, but unless they realize that is what is going on in their heads, I see no hope for change. Awareness is the first step and is necessary before change can occur.

 

[KWED]

You can say exactly the same thing using completely different words.
However, that does not change the fact that belief and opinion have different meanings.

A belief is a state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case whereas an opinion is a view or judgment formed about something. That is the difference between the two.

Opinion: a state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case.
"It is my opinion that god exists".

Belief: a view or judgment formed about something
"It is my belief that god exists".

Hope this helped.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Another good reflection. Some people do not want to submit to God's will because it is not what they want or agree with, but unless they realize that is what is going on in their heads, I see no hope for change. Awareness is the first step and is necessary before change can occur.

The more I read Baha'i scriptures the more clear it becomes

 

[KWED]

I never claimed that my belief is factually true. In fact, many times I have said it is not factually true because God can never be proven to exist as a fact.

I said that 'hypothetically' God might not exist but I do not accept that as a possibility.
I have knowledge of God through Baha'u'llah.

I'm sorry, but this just isn't working. It's not you, it's me. I just can't live up to your expectations. You need to get out there and live your life and not think about me any more - but we'll always have our time together.
Goodbye...

 

[Truthseeker]

The problem is in a hypothetical "most great peace" one could be a global citizen and not have a vote in Baha'i elections as they are non-Baha'i and if the Baha'i Universal House of Justice is to be the supreme governing body of the planet that is very concerning amongst lovers of justice.

That is not the situation as I understand it. Here is some questions I asked the World Center and the response I got:

Is there any definitive guidance on what we will do when the Baha’is become a majority in a country? Will the national assembly take over? Or will we form a new government by other means. I am worried about shutting people out of the administration of a government. I am afraid we will cause bad feelings. Could we have a different law for Baha’is and other people so as to not impose Baha’i law on others?

Dear Bahá’í Friend,

The Universal House of Justice has received your email message of 12 June 2018, seeking guidance about the nature of the administration of a country when the majority of its population will have accepted the Faith and how in that circumstance minorities would be treated. We have been asked to convey the following and regret the delay in our response. It is not possible to describe with particularity how the governance of a country might be affected when the majority of its people accept the Faith. However, any change will be by democratic means and not by force. The writings of our Faith make it clear that under a Bahá’í system the rights of minorities must always be respected and upheld. Shoghi Effendi has enunciated this principle:

Unlike the nations and peoples of the earth, be they of the East or of the West, democratic or authoritarian, communist or capitalist, whether belonging to the Old World or the New, who either ignore, trample upon, or extirpate, the racial, religious, or political minorities within the sphere of their jurisdiction, every organized community enlisted under the banner of Bahá’u’lláh should feel it to be its first and inescapable obligation to nurture, encourage, and safeguard every minority belonging to any faith, race, class, or nation within it. (The Advent of Divine Justice (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 2006, 2015 printing), p. 53)
With loving Bahá’í greetings,
Department of the Secretariat

My take from this is that they can't say "with particularity how the governance of a country might be affected when the majority of its people accept the Faith" is because it will be different in each country. Each country will work it out in their own way, because each country is different and unique. The guidance is there from Shoghi Effendi, assuredly it will not be ignored.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm sorry, but this just isn't working. It's not you, it's me. I just can't live up to your expectations. You need to get out there and live your life and not think about me any more - but we'll always have our time together.
Goodbye...

I do not know why you would think I have any expectations.
I have no expectations of anyone on this forum - never had, never will.
I just respond to posts to the best of my ability.

Bye if that is how you want it.

 

[samtonga43]

That's true. It is possible that God does not exist since it cannot be proven that God exists.

It is possible that God is not Triune since it cannot be proven that God is Triune.
It is possible that MrB, was delusional, since it cannot be proved that he was sane.
It is possible that UHJ is misogynist to its core, since it cannot be proved that it offers equality to women.
It is possible that you do not have a logical mind, since it cannot be proven that you have a logical mind.

And so on..............

 

[Trailblazer]

Opinion: a state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case.
"It is my opinion that god exists".

Belief: a view or judgment formed about something
"It is my belief that god exists".

Hope this helped.

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something
"It is my opinion that god exists".

Belief: a state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case.
"It is my belief that god exists".

Hope this helped.

 

[CG Didymus]

"Human" and "divine" (godly) are two separate and contradictory concepts.
Simply quoting some who claims that they are both human and divine does not resolve this.
If I told you I was both dead and alive, would you accept it as a fact?

And some Christians believe Jesus was fully human and fully divine. But, other than Baha'is, who believes Abraham, Moses and Noah were both human and divine? And then Baha'is believe more in the Islamic version of the life of these people. So, I wonder, are they part divine in Islam?

 

[Trailblazer]

It is possible that God is not Triune since it cannot be proven that God is Triune.
It is possible that MrB, was delusional, since it cannot be proved that he was sane.
It is possible that UHJ is misogynist to its core, since it cannot be proved that it offers equality to women.
It is possible that you do not have a logical mind, since it cannot be proven that you have a logical mind.

And so on..............

It is possible that nothing in the NT is accurate, and Jesus was nothing but a man who claimed to speak for God.
It is possible that someday you will stop pointing out all my deficits...
Literally anything is possible but some things are highly unlikely.

So what if those things you cite about the Baha'i Faith are possible, what you are trying to accomplish by pointing that out?

Even if something is possible that does not make it true.
You cannot prove that Baha'u'llah was delusional or that the UHJ is misogynist to its core
You can only believe it.

It is possible that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God and the return of Christ and the Messiah prophesied in the OT and the Promised One of all the religions.
I cannot prove that, I can only believe it.

The hundred million dollar question is why you denigrate the Baha'i beliefs constantly?
I do not go on about what you believe and denigrate it constantly. You have a right to believe that Jesus is God and God is Triune if you want to.

Do you see the difference between you and me?
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In closing I would like to point something out. It is always possible that a patient will die in anesthesia so the risk of surgery vs. no surgery have to be weighed. What will happen without the surgery? If the patient will most likely die without the surgery the small risk of dying in anesthesia needs to be taken.

It is possible that there is no God and there were never any Messengers of God - not Jesus or Baha'u'llah or any others. What is the risk to people of believing that? The consequences of believing that will not be known in this life, they will only be known after they die, and by then it could be too late.

I consider people who laugh this off to be foolish and arrogant, but that is just my personal opinion.
If they cannot believe in Baha'u'llah at least they should consider believing in God and Jesus.
I am sure my opinion will be disregarded by these people.