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Who was the most influential person to walk the earth?

SethZaddik

Active Member
How is that relevant to the level of his influence? I didn't see you objecting to the inclusion of Moshe, Julius Ceasar or Muhammad - is that because they mostly had people other than their 'own people' murdered instead?

Mohammed (s.a.w.s) never had anybody murdered or committed murder.

Muslims early wars came to them, they were persecuted but finally emerged victorious by the Grace of God and established a just society and tolerant religion.

Argue all you want, it is true history.

Learn it. And I am aware of all the myths, one really is all there is and it comes from the Jews of Medina and was written to report that it was being said and not to validate its truthfulness (see: Ishaq), "curious" is what it was called, not History.

That doesn't stop the fundamentalists and other liars who claim that he was a murderer from using it, dishonestly without revealing the source usually, which was a people with every reason to and a history of, lying, over a century and a half later. They will say this themselves but use the source regardless and ignore all said about Jesus p in the Talmud.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
"And because the ambassador was so polite and charming, the Persians simply invited the Arabs to take over their country."

I agree Muhammad was one of the most influential people though. It's probably between him and Jesus/Paul and who you favour tends to be a bit subjective after that.


The Persians were fighting the Romans until Islam intervened so they were pretty welcome actually.

Nice assumption though.

Paul only wrote 4-7 of his epistles and no historical records of the time know him including contemporary Josephus and Philo Judaeus.

He didn't influence anything besides the cult of Marcion long after he died, his contribution to the world is some rants on paper.

Constantine and the Church Fathers made Paul influential post mortem.

If he even existed and Marcion didn't invent him, which is entirely possible as Justin Martyr knows Marcion but never mentioned Paul once, he is the first historian, or author that could be considered one, of the church.

Next is Iranaeus. He knows Paul.
 
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siti

Well-Known Member
Does that make him seem much more of a sympathetic character?
Certainly not - I was only intending to qualify the "murdered" part of PopeADope's question that I was responding to. Influence can be great and either horrendously negative or hugely positive - and I reckon my microbial inventor of sexual reproduction would still win both categories.:D
 
The Persians were fighting the Romans until Islam intervened so they were pretty welcome actually.

Nice assumption though.

They had actually stopped fighting each other by 628, but these wars did make the (proto)Muslim invasions a lot easier. They certainly weren't welcome though (when are foreign invaders ever welcome?), just not in a great position to defend themselves after years of war and plague.

Paul only wrote 4-7 of his epistles and no historical records of the time know him including contemporary Josephus and Philo Judaeus.

He didn't influence anything besides the cult of Marcion long after he died, his contribution to the world is some rants on paper.

Constantine and the Church Fathers made Paul influential post mortem.

Without Paul we'd probably never have heard of Jesus as he appears to have been influential in accepting non-Jews into the (proto)Christian fold.

You are also massively overstating Constantine's importance in the spread of Christianity as it was pretty widespread before he came to power. He was as much a symptom of the spread of Christianity as a cause.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Mohammed (s.a.w.s) never had anybody murdered or committed murder.

Muslims early wars came to them, they were persecuted but finally emerged victorious by the Grace of God and established a just society and tolerant religion.

Argue all you want, it is true history.

Learn it. And I am aware of all the myths, one really is all there is and it comes from the Jews of Medina and was written to report that it was being said and not to validate its truthfulness (see: Ishaq), "curious" is what it was called, not History.

That doesn't stop the fundamentalists and other liars who claim that he was a murderer from using it, dishonestly without revealing the source usually, which was a people with every reason to and a history of, lying, over a century and a half later. They will say this themselves but use the source regardless and ignore all said about Jesus p in the Talmud.
OK - so their early wars came to them - and as a result, Muhammad personally oversaw the subjugation of the entire Arabian Peninsula before his death - was all that an act of self defense? By the time ibn Ishaq was compiling his biography of the Prophet a hundred years or so later, the Caliphate had already expanded its boundaries from the shores of Spain and Morocco to the Indus and from Yemen to Armenia - all by military conquest. That's not a myth.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
The Persians were fighting the Romans until Islam intervened so they were pretty welcome actually.

Nice assumption though.
"And because the ambassador was so polite and charming, the Persians simply invited the Arabs to take over their country."

I agree Muhammad was one of the most influential people though. It's probably between him and Jesus/Paul and who you favour tends to be a bit subjective after that.


The Persians had to face the choice of losing to Rome and being FORCEFULLY converted to Catholicism or...

Uniting with the Muslims, ending forever the constant threat of Rome and being offered conversion to Islam, but allowed to say no and keep their religion.

Not much to think about there.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
OK - so their early wars came to them - and as a result, Muhammad personally oversaw the subjugation of the entire Arabian Peninsula before his death - was all that an act of self defense? By the time ibn Ishaq was compiling his biography of the Prophet a hundred years or so later, the Caliphate had already expanded its boundaries from the shores of Spain and Morocco to the Indus and from Yemen to Armenia - all by military conquest. That's not a myth.

Nobody was "subjugated" so you obviously have no knowledge of history.

Ibn Ishaq reported that a story was told (by the most obviously unreliable source available) not that it was true.

There is zero evidence to support it. Obviously the Jews of Medina were pissed at having lost yet another kingdom they had infiltrated, they had several in Arabia before Mohammed (s.a.w.s.) but by their own treachery suffered defeat at the hands of the Arabs/Muslims.

Despite the fact that they were allowed to live freely, they were not in charge anymore. But they were not Arabs, and in Arabia, so they should have been smarter in their dealings.
 
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The Persians had to face the choice of losing to Rome and being FORCEFULLY converted to Catholicism or...

Uniting with the Muslims, ending forever the constant threat of Rome and being offered conversion to Islam, but allowed to say no and keep their religion.

"Uniting" in the name of religious tolerance? Sorry, that's hard to take seriously.

"Ending the constant threat of Rome", Persia started the last war.

Evidence that they would have been converted to Christianity by force (quite a lot of them were already Christian btw)? This wasn't the usual way Rome ruled conquered territories. The Arab model of post conquest administration borrowed a lot from local custom (i.e. Roman and Persian law).

I understand you have a theological view of history, but don't expect others who are familiar with the actual history to agree with you.

the Caliphate had already expanded its boundaries from the shores of Spain and Morocco to the Indus and from Yemen to Armenia - all by military conquest robust diplomacy. That's not a myth.

Fixed it for you ;)
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
I didn't think I would have to do this but in order to support my belief that Mohammed (s.a.w.s) is the most influential (in a good way) person in history.

Quotes from non Muslims, sometimes who use the now known unlearned term "Mohammedan" because at the time it was not known that this term is improper to Muslims, nevertheless they speak highly of Mohammed (s.a.w.s)

Thomas Carlysle 1840 "Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic Story"

" The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped 'round this man (Mohammed) are disgraceful to ourselves only."

"A silent great soul, who who can not but be earnest. He was to Kindle the world, the world's Maker had ordered so."

How appropriate!

A.S. Trotting in ''Islam" 1951

"The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is QUITE FALSE" Emphasis mine.

Indeed it is Mr. Trotting, indeed it is.

De Lacy O'Leary in "Islam at the crossroads", London, 1923

"History makes it clear, however, that the legend of the fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most FANTASTICALLY ABSURD MYTHS that historians have ever repeated."

It seems you can't trust even historians when it comes to slandering Islam going back to the very first to write on the subject in the West, Europe.

Thankfully it has been long enough that the truth is spoken upon request. It is not shouted from the rooftops but if you want to know the truth you can find it. You just need a shovel to un bury it.

I have plenty more quotes but I have proven my point.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
I could not forget this:

Gibbon, "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire."

The good sense of Mohammed despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family man; he kindled fire, swept the floor, milked the ewes and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort the abstemious diet of an Arab.


Despite having the power of a Caesar and Pope and Prophet!

No wonder they need to resort to slander and propaganda to incite hatred and gain support for bombings and invasions!!!

The truth is the opposite of everything they say about Islam (government sources) and Muslims, Mohammed (s.a.w.s.) (Evangelical fanatics, Zionists).

If people knew the truth or cared about in other cases it would be a better world.

Don't contribute to lies.

Salaam.
 
Thomas Carlysle 1840 "Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic Story"

" The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped 'round this man (Mohammed) are disgraceful to ourselves only."

"A silent great soul, who who can not but be earnest. He was to Kindle the world, the world's Maker had ordered so."

Little bit of trivia for you. Many 19th C English language sources were influenced by the contemporary literary trend of Romanticism (of which Carlyle was an adherent).

The classic example is Walter Scott's 'The Talisman' which is mostly responsible for the excessively moral and chivalrous perception of Saladin that still exists in parts of the West.

Carlyle's is a Romanticised version of the great man theory of history, and it is thus not treated as a useful source for modern historians.

"The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is QUITE FALSE" Emphasis mine.

"History makes it clear, however, that the legend of the fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most FANTASTICALLY ABSURD MYTHS that historians have ever repeated."

This I agree with, they just had the sword.

The word Muslim doesn't come into common use until the end of the 7th C (they called themselves believers and emigrants), the invaders included Jews and Christians, and those they conquered didn't have the slightest clue that their conquerors were following a distinctly new religion (let alone being forced to join it).

They basically only had to win 2 major battles, one v the Romans and one v the Persians (both of whose armies included large numbers of Arab mercenaries), before large sections of the region were mostly undefended. Neither Empire could support multiple large field armies in the region by this point due to war, plague, declining tax revenues and lack of manpower.

After this settlements tended to get the choice of submitting and paying a tax on conquered people (Jizya is perhaps derived from a Persian word for levy - Kizyat) or fighting. Most chose the former, after which they were largely left to manage their own affairs as before, as long as they kept up the tribute. Choosing to fight would lead to your settlement being made an example of with killings and enslavement.

The Empire was won with violence or the threat of violence, not with persuasive rhetoric and a winning smile. That was the way of the world in those days not just of the proto-Muslims. They took from the Romans and Persians in the same manner the Romans and Persians had taken from others.

Most of this happened after Muhammad had died though of course.

Thankfully it has been long enough that the truth is spoken upon request. It is not shouted from the rooftops but if you want to know the truth you can find it. You just need a shovel to un bury it.

It certainly requires a shovel or two. It was only quite recently that Western scholars started to try to distinguish between theology and history. Not much distinction exists in the Muslim world though, as the theology has already been accepted as true.

The extent to which we can know the 'whole truth' though is limited by the lack of sources we have from the period. Many theories are still pretty tentative/speculative.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
Little bit of trivia for you. Many 19th C English language sources were influenced by the contemporary literary trend of Romanticism (of which Carlyle was an adherent).

The classic example is Walter Scott's 'The Talisman' which is mostly responsible for the excessively moral and chivalrous perception of Saladin that still exists in parts of the West.

Carlyle's is a Romanticised version of the great man theory of history, and it is thus not treated as a useful source for modern historians.



This I agree with, they just had the sword.

The word Muslim doesn't come into common use until the end of the 7th C (they called themselves believers and emigrants), the invaders included Jews and Christians, and those they conquered didn't have the slightest clue that their conquerors were following a distinctly new religion (let alone being forced to join it).

They basically only had to win 2 major battles, one v the Romans and one v the Persians (both of whose armies included large numbers of Arab mercenaries), before large sections of the region were mostly undefended. Neither Empire could support multiple large field armies in the region by this point due to war, plague, declining tax revenues and lack of manpower.

After this settlements tended to get the choice of submitting and paying a tax on conquered people (Jizya is perhaps derived from a Persian word for levy - Kizyat) or fighting. Most chose the former, after which they were largely left to manage their own affairs as before, as long as they kept up the tribute. Choosing to fight would lead to your settlement being made an example of with killings and enslavement.

The Empire was won with violence or the threat of violence, not with persuasive rhetoric and a winning smile. That was the way of the world in those days not just of the proto-Muslims. They took from the Romans and Persians in the same manner the Romans and Persians had taken from others.

Most of this happened after Muhammad had died though of course.



It certainly requires a shovel or two. It was only quite recently that Western scholars started to try to distinguish between theology and history. Not much distinction exists in the Muslim world though, as the theology has already been accepted as true.

The extent to which we can know the 'whole truth' though is limited by the lack of sources we have from the period. Many theories are still pretty tentative/speculative.


Yada, yada, yada.

I proved my point, argue against all you like.

Typical methods like taking unrelated facts about the author of the book a couple of quotes are from and pretending it makes a difference to what he says is cheap polemics.

Other than that you just ranted about stuff unrelated to my comments or just plain not accurate. It is easy to claim what popular opinion thinks is history (but isn't really) and you may convince someone, but I don't know what your point even is so I doubt it.

It is not as if I said anything untrue. I don't care what you do.
 
Typical methods like taking unrelated facts about the author of the book a couple of quotes are from and pretending it makes a difference to what he says is cheap polemics.

It was an accurate explanation of why Thomas Carlyle is not a highly regarded scholar in the field of academic Islamic studies. A scholar of 'truth' should be interested in such issues.

Based on a quick search, his 'research' is never cited as a source in any of the 600+ books/articles I have on my computer. By happy coincidence, I did find this though in one of the books:

Carlyle, deeply influenced by the German writer Goethe, linked ideas of genius with notions of
greatness. Muhammad’s unspoiled natural genius allows him to do things that will affect the world.
Carlyle emphasized the primitive, the lack of artifice and artificiality, in his thinking about
Muhammad’s relation to environment as well as to his inner self. Muslims were not his target
audience, though he became “the favorite author of all Islamic modernists in India.”22 Muslim authors
appropriated his praise for apologetic purposes, a trend that only increased after the 1911 translation
of his lecture into Arabic... Conventional wisdom deems his lecture, which includes its share of negative remarks, “a vehement and unusual rehabilitation of Muhammad.”24... [it should also be noted that] Carlyle was less interested in Muhammad himself than in what the Prophet allowed Carlyle to say about humanity as a whole... Carlyle synthesized the Romantic genius and the great man.
(Kecia Ali - The Lives of Muhammad)

He is also mentioned in Writing the Biography of the Prophet Muhammad: Problems and Solutions - Robert Hoyland (tl;dr: he reflected the post Enlightenment phase of scholarship that went past religious polemics, but swallowed Islamic narratives whole without a shred of critical thought and reflects an outdated perspective).

Other than that he only appears briefly in the Encyclopedia of the Quran making negative comments about said text.

Apart from him saying what you want him to say, why do you consider him a scholar of great repute?

Other than that you just ranted about stuff unrelated to my comments or just plain not accurate. It is easy to claim what popular opinion thinks is history (but isn't really) and you may convince someone, but I don't know what your point even is so I doubt it.

It's not popular opinion. Popular opinion tends to reflect the traditional Islamic narrative pretty closely. My point was that the conquests were less Islamic than is claimed, and played put in a similar way to other conquests of late antiquity.

It's also not a rant because I'll happily talk about this topic all day. Make a thread if you want to demonstrate the peaceful nature of the Arab conquests and I'll look up some sources for you. Don't assume that everyone who disagree with your 'peaceful conquests' narrative is dishonest and 'anti-Islam'.

If you want to read some of the oldest sources that mention Islam and the conquests you can start here though: Seeing Islam as others saw it

A sample:

It tells us that in the year 945 of the Greeks (AD 634), “on Friday 4 February, at the ninth hour” a Byzantine force engaged “the Arabs of Muhammad” in Palestine, twelve miles east of Gaza. Nothing is said about the course of the confrontation, but it is simply noted that “the Byzantines fled, leaving behind their patrician,” whom the Arabs killed, and that “some 4000 poor villagers of Palestine were killed there, Christians, Jews and Samaritans, and the Arabs ravaged the whole region.” This would appear to correspond to an equally brief notice in Muslim sources about a battle in the spring of 634 at Dathin, described as one of the villages of Gaza, in which a general was killed.

from Hoyland, Robert G.. In Gods Path: The Arab Conquests and the Creation of an Islamic Empire (Ancient Warfare and Civilization) (pp. 42-43). Oxford University Press.
 

TheMusicTheory

Lord of Diminished 5ths
Attempting to convince someone pushing a theological agenda to set that agenda aside and examine actual evidence has always struck me as a fool's errand but good on you for trying, Augustus.

As for the topic, I'm going with the guy that invented A/C.
 
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