Who won the War of 1812?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

(The North American one, not the European one).

Well?

I got taught one version that went pretty much like this:

The Americans took advantage of Britain's engagement against Napoleon in Europe by invading Canada. The Canadian militia, along with their Native Allies and what few British regulars weren't being used elsewhere (e.g. fighting Napoleon) repelled that invasion so that the US gained no territory at all. Since they preserved all of Canada's territory against an invader, the Canadians, British, and their Native allies (but mostly the Canadians) won the War of 1812.

In the past few years, though, I've heard from my American friends that they got taught a different version:

The British continued to violate American sovereignty after the American Revolution until British acts to the new country became so heinous that there was no other choice but to go to war to defend American rights. In the end, the British agreed to respect American sovereignty, so the Americans won the War of 1812.

Lately, though, I've started to take a more nuanced view. I think that things actually shook out like this:

- Canada won. They fought off an invader.
- The United States won. They got what they were fighting for: British respect for the terms of the Treaty of Paris.
- Britain lost. They gained nothing and gave up what the US wanted.
- the Natives lost. They were instrumental in Canada's victory, but their own war continued after the War of 1812. They were decimated by the Americans and their former allies turned their back and refused to help.

Thoughts? Do you agree? Disagree?

 

[tumbleweed41]

(The North American one, not the European one).

Well?

I got taught one version that went pretty much like this:

The Americans took advantage of Britain's engagement against Napoleon in Europe by invading Canada. The Canadian militia, along with their Native Allies and what few British regulars weren't being used elsewhere (e.g. fighting Napoleon) repelled that invasion so that the US gained no territory at all. Since they preserved all of Canada's territory against an invader, the Canadians, British, and their Native allies (but mostly the Canadians) won the War of 1812.

In the past few years, though, I've heard from my American friends that they got taught a different version:

The British continued to violate American sovereignty after the American Revolution until British acts to the new country became so heinous that there was no other choice but to go to war to defend American rights. In the end, the British agreed to respect American sovereignty, so the Americans won the War of 1812.

Lately, though, I've started to take a more nuanced view. I think that things actually shook out like this:

- Canada won. They fought off an invader.
- The United States won. They got what they were fighting for: British respect for the terms of the Treaty of Paris.
- Britain lost. They gained nothing and gave up what the US wanted.
- the Natives lost. They were instrumental in Canada's victory, but their own war continued after the War of 1812. They were decimated by the Americans and their former allies turned their back and refused to help.

Thoughts? Do you agree? Disagree?

The European settlers of North America won, the Native Americans lost as pawns in yet another European struggle for property and capital.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Welp, I've had the 'advantage' of not being taught about the war of 1812 at all. Might be a positive, right? I'm unbiased. Some might say uneducated too, but we'll see how we go...

The Americans took advantage of Britain's engagement against Napoleon in Europe by invading Canada. The Canadian militia, along with their Native Allies and what few British regulars weren't being used elsewhere (e.g. fighting Napoleon) repelled that invasion so that the US gained no territory at all. Since they preserved all of Canada's territory against an invader, the Canadians, British, and their Native allies (but mostly the Canadians) won the War of 1812.

In the past few years, though, I've heard from my American friends that they got taught a different version:

The British continued to violate American sovereignty after the American Revolution until British acts to the new country became so heinous that there was no other choice but to go to war to defend American rights. In the end, the British agreed to respect American sovereignty, so the Americans won the War of 1812.

Well, I'd see the first definition as closer than the second. The second is bunkum. The first isn't quite there either, but it's definitely the closer of the two.

Lately, though, I've started to take a more nuanced view. I think that things actually shook out like this:

- Canada won. They fought off an invader.
- The United States won. They got what they were fighting for: British respect for the terms of the Treaty of Paris.
- Britain lost. They gained nothing and gave up what the US wanted.
- the Natives lost. They were instrumental in Canada's victory, but their own war continued after the War of 1812. They were decimated by the Americans and their former allies turned their back and refused to help.

Thoughts? Do you agree? Disagree?

I agree that the winner/loser balance is more nuanced. This was actually a pretty messy and complicated war from a motivation point of view, so of course it gets hard determining who 'won' in the end. For what it's worth, here my take;

1) Canada were the closest to winners. Invading forces were defeated, as you mentioned. Every bit as importantly, this war was a key one in forging a national identity.

2) The USA lost the war. This is probably the most debateable opinion, so hear me out. Most of the gains America received were not direct results of the war. For example, one of the issues (as mentioned in your 'American version' of the war's outcome) was the British practice of impressing American seamen into the Royal Navy. This practice ended as a result of the conclusion of the Napoleonic War, not due to the war of 1812. It was not part of the peace treaty (Treaty of Ghent). American aims to cede Canada (which they may not have started the war with, but which certainly developed at some point in the war) were defeated, and the flow on effects of the war probably ended any hope of politically achieving the same goal, although there were those in the States who still harboured such hopes. But whilst I would note it as a defeat, it's more a technical defeat than anything. No long term harm was done to American forces, nor was American borders negatively effected.

3) The British won, but it was of no consequence. Canada was successfully protected, and the war had no impact on the 'real' war Britain was prosecuting against Napolean.

4) The Native Americans lost. They were the only clear losers in the war. The death of Tecumseh, in particular, and the destruction of the cohesive Native forces he led caused a major reduction in the ability of Native Americans to mount any sort of cohesive military or political response to subsequent colonialism.

------------------------------------------------------------

The other, and vitally important thing I would then add is that the USA were able to move on from this war, and take substantial steps forward in the peace that immediately followed, particularly in terms of creating new states, and settling increasingly west.

In this respect, it is of little consequence that the USA lost the war (as per my reasoning above). The conditions which prevailed after the war suited their aims quite nicely, and the damage done to Native American 'forces' and structures had a great positive effect on American expansion.

 

[Sunstone]

The Americans for the most part lost on the battlefield, but won on the negotiation table.

 

[Alceste]

I can't resist...

The war of 1812 Song (Original) - YouTube

 

[oldbadger]

All I know about the 1812 Anglo-American war is what C.S. Forester wrote in his 'Age of fighting sail'. I thought that we Brits kept boarding American ships, impressing their seaman and generally being -rses.

The daring blockade runs of the big American flush-decked heavy frigates, and the amazing ship-on-ship chases and actions between American and Brit frigates and sloops are truly breath-taking, if you read Forester's accounts.

I haven't read about the Great Lakes battles, but I believe that they also make gripping reading.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The big loser was the War of 1811, which everybody completely forgot about after the one in 1812.

 

[BSM1]

Johnny Horton, of course.

 

[Valjean]

Welp, I've had the 'advantage' of not being taught about the war of 1812 at all. Might be a positive, right? I'm unbiased. Some might say uneducated too, but we'll see how we go...

Perhaps the winner was Australia.

Britain's population was growing and changes brought about by the industrial revolution left many impoverished and living on the streets. Crime was rife and the prisons full. North America was longer available for prisoner transport. For a while ships left over from the 1812 coflict served as floating prisons.

Then someone thought of a new venue for Britain's riffraff, and off they sailed...

 

[lewisnotmiller]

One man's riff-raff is another man's founding father...

 

[Sir Doom]

Perhaps the winner was Australia.

I wonder if the native Australians would agree...

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I wonder if the native Australians would agree...

Doubtful. They were treated like crap. There are still a lot of issues, but it's in no way as clear cut as it was. Funny, but it seems like once you cut the legs off a culture, throwing money at it doesn't make the legs grow back?

There are other ways to look at it, of course. Someone was always going to settle here. The chances of the native Australian culture not being damaged was pretty remote. So, are British convicts any worse than sealers, French or Dutch traders, or whatever else you can dream up?

 

[Aquitaine]

Perhaps the winner was Australia.

Britain's population was growing and changes brought about by the industrial revolution left many impoverished and living on the streets. Crime was rife and the prisons full. North America was longer available for prisoner transport. For a while ships left over from the 1812 coflict served as floating prisons.

Then someone thought of a new venue for Britain's riffraff, and off they sailed...

Whilst nowadays virtually every Brit wants to live in Australia. Indeed, I think the Kangaroo People may have won this one.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Whilst nowadays virtually every Brit wants to live in Australia. Indeed, I think the Kangaroo People may have won this one.

I can understand why. We're awesome.

 

[Aquitaine]

I can understand why. We're awesome.

Either that or Britain is just miserable.
Maybe it's a bit of both?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Either that or Britain is just miserable.
Maybe it's a bit of both?

Meh...I come from 'good British stock', amongst other flavours. I thank my British blood for my ability to eat all sorts of weird crap. British folk eat some strange food (at least traditionally).

Of course, I love it, so not sure what that says about me.

We all feel sorry for you down here. We're considering throwing the Ashes, and letting ya win, just to pick up your spirits.

 

[natstew]

All I know about the 1812 Anglo-American war is what C.S. Forester wrote in his 'Age of fighting sail'. I thought that we Brits kept boarding American ships, impressing their seaman and generally being -rses.

The daring blockade runs of the big American flush-decked heavy frigates, and the amazing ship-on-ship chases and actions between American and Brit frigates and sloops are truly breath-taking, if you read Forester's accounts.

I haven't read about the Great Lakes battles, but I believe that they also make gripping reading.

Ah ha! Ever hear of Capt. Charles Perry Stewart? Supposed to be somewhere
in my genetic ancestry. He kicked a few Britt Butts and took a few Britt
ships as prizes.
Sad thing is, only a few American Seamen were returned to American ships by the Britts. I'd have to say the U.S. won, but with divine intervention in
the way of the worst storm to ever hit Maryland decimating and demoralizing
the Britts marching from DC to Baltimore. And again at the Battle Of New Orleans when the highly experienced and disciplined Brittish army made blunder after blunder that was totally out of character for the greatest army in the world at the time, the army that had destroyed Napoleon a few months earlier.
On second thought, I think God won that war.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Ah ha! Ever hear of Capt. Charles Perry Stewart? Supposed to be somewhere
in my genetic ancestry. He kicked a few Britt Butts and took a few Britt
ships as prizes.
Sad thing is, only a few American Seamen were returned to American ships by the Britts. I'd have to say the U.S. won, but with divine intervention in
the way of the worst storm to ever hit Maryland decimating and demoralizing
the Britts marching from DC to Baltimore. And again at the Battle Of New Orleans when the highly experienced and disciplined Brittish army made blunder after blunder that was totally out of character for the greatest army in the world at the time, the army that had destroyed Napoleon a few months earlier.
On second thought, I think God won that war.

How do you figure the US won? It's an interesting position. Or are you only talking about the sea battles?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I got to thinking about this, and I remembered a podcast about this from a while back:

BBC Radio 4 - In Our Time, The War of 1812

On this program, one of the guests put forward the argument that British impressment of American sailors ended because the Royal Navy didn't need as many sailors once Napoleon was defeated, not because of any sort of concession won by the Americans on the battlefield.

Thoughts on this? If it's true, it seems that it really undercuts any claim to an American victory. So... do you think it is?

 

[Curious George]

(The North American one, not the European one).

Well?

I got taught one version that went pretty much like this:

The Americans took advantage of Britain's engagement against Napoleon in Europe by invading Canada. The Canadian militia, along with their Native Allies and what few British regulars weren't being used elsewhere (e.g. fighting Napoleon) repelled that invasion so that the US gained no territory at all. Since they preserved all of Canada's territory against an invader, the Canadians, British, and their Native allies (but mostly the Canadians) won the War of 1812.

In the past few years, though, I've heard from my American friends that they got taught a different version:

The British continued to violate American sovereignty after the American Revolution until British acts to the new country became so heinous that there was no other choice but to go to war to defend American rights. In the end, the British agreed to respect American sovereignty, so the Americans won the War of 1812.

Lately, though, I've started to take a more nuanced view. I think that things actually shook out like this:

- Canada won. They fought off an invader.
- The United States won. They got what they were fighting for: British respect for the terms of the Treaty of Paris.
- Britain lost. They gained nothing and gave up what the US wanted.
- the Natives lost. They were instrumental in Canada's victory, but their own war continued after the War of 1812. They were decimated by the Americans and their former allies turned their back and refused to help.

Thoughts? Do you agree? Disagree?

I think the version I was taught was that the U.S. was mad and because the British kept messing with them, so we went to war again and tried to drive the British out of Canada. Unfortunately, the British still retained control of Canada after all was said and done, but Fortunately they stopped messing with the U.S.

I wonder if Canada would have been a better nation had those born in the Northern British Colonies seized an opportunity to become independent. I guess I would imagine them not joining the U.S. but allying with them in order to help banish the British from the Americas. Oh well, I guess they were not organized enough or strong enough. But, the British did do a good job in preventing the U.S. from liberating any British Colonies. And now Canada is a wonderful country. Perhaps, they chose the better less violent path of continuing to submit to their British Overlords until their was a natural move toward independence.