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Who wrote the Gospels?

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Matthew is a later version of the Gospel of the Hebrews used by the Ebionites

"In general, scholarly opinion has been, and continues to be, that the Gospel of the Ebionites is either an indiscriminate harmony of the Synoptics or a corruption of the Gospel of Matthew."

Edwards, J. R. (2002). The Gospel of the Ebionites and the Gospel of Luke. New Testament Studies, 48(04), 568-586.

The author naturally qualifies his statement because he is arguing that the fragments preserved by Epiphanius show that the Ebionite "gospel" used Luke as a main source. As for the gospel of the Hebrews, not only do we have a handful of quotations that make up the entirety of the extant text, but it is associated with the "Nazareans".

I'm wondering how there could be evidence (let alone what it is) demonstrating that Matthew relied on a "gospel" that survives in a few lines, let alone that this is also the "gospel" used by the Ebionites (another text which barely survives related to a group we known next to nothing about).

John's anonymous, but my educated guess would be Ignatius or Polycarp. John is pretty gnostic.

It is fairly certain that John wasn't written by one person (apart from anything else, the authors tell us that they are relating the teachings of the beloved disciple and that "we know that his testimony is true"). The literature on the Johannine community is vast, but interestingly the oldest extant fragment of the NT is from the first half of the 2nd century (~125 CE) and it is from John. It could be that both of those you mention were involved in writing John, but it seems to me to be quite speculative to begin with and all evidence (e.g., comparisons between the language of John vs. either of the authors you mention) tells against it.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Who wrote the Gospels in the NT?
What do you mean by "wrote"?

A big problem with the Gospels is that 1st century people had very different literary standards than modern people. "The Gospel according to Matthew" didn't mean Matthew was alive at the time it was written. It could easily have been an homage piece commissioned by people who venerated Matthew. It might be better called "The Good News of Jesus, as best we remember what Matthew told us about it". Nobody knows who actually put brush to papyrus or why or who knew about it or what they thought.

Tom
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
What do you mean by "wrote"?

A big problem with the Gospels is that 1st century people had very different literary standards than modern people. "The Gospel according to Matthew" didn't mean Matthew was alive at the time it was written. It could easily have been an homage piece commissioned by people who venerated Matthew. It might be better called "The Good News of Jesus, as best we remember what Matthew told us about it". Nobody knows who actually put brush to papyrus or why or who knew about it or what they thought.

Tom

Penned, authored, dictated.
 

Gnostic Seeker

Spiritual
"In general, scholarly opinion has been, and continues to be, that the Gospel of the Ebionites is either an indiscriminate harmony of the Synoptics or a corruption of the Gospel of Matthew."

Edwards, J. R. (2002). The Gospel of the Ebionites and the Gospel of Luke. New Testament Studies, 48(04), 568-586.

The author naturally qualifies his statement because he is arguing that the fragments preserved by Epiphanius show that the Ebionite "gospel" used Luke as a main source. As for the gospel of the Hebrews, not only do we have a handful of quotations that make up the entirety of the extant text, but it is associated with the "Nazareans".

I'm wondering how there could be evidence (let alone what it is) demonstrating that Matthew relied on a "gospel" that survives in a few lines, let alone that this is also the "gospel" used by the Ebionites (another text which barely survives related to a group we known next to nothing about).



It is fairly certain that John wasn't written by one person (apart from anything else, the authors tell us that they are relating the teachings of the beloved disciple and that "we know that his testimony is true"). The literature on the Johannine community is vast, but interestingly the oldest extant fragment of the NT is from the first half of the 2nd century (~125 CE) and it is from John. It could be that both of those you mention were involved in writing John, but it seems to me to be quite speculative to begin with and all evidence (e.g., comparisons between the language of John vs. either of the authors you mention) tells against it.

I do not deny John could have been written by multiple authors. I admit I was speculating based on the absolute earliest dates. As for your reference- I'd like to know what other Bible scholars he references, or if his work is more a theory. Origen and a few others claimed the Gospel of the Hebrews was the original Matthew and also that it excluded a birth narrative.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'd like to know what other Bible scholars he references

Standard practice when one is referring to a consensus position is to refer to a few main sources (this is true in the sciences as well). If there is a consensus, then necessarily virtually everybody relevant agrees and there is no point in any exhaustive survey, particularly when (as in this case) the author is arguing against the consensus. That said, here are the main "in text" citations:

"...the Gospel of the Ebionites is either an indiscriminate harmony of the Synoptics or a corruption of the Gospel of Matthew. Thus, W. L. Petersen says that the Gospel of the Ebionites ‘appears to have been harmonized, woven from traditions found in the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke)’. H. Koester believes that a harmony of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke ‘is not only in evidence in Justin and 2 Clement, but also in the Gospel of the Ebionites’. J. K. Elliott sees the Gospel of the Ebionites as a generic harmony of the ‘synoptic type’. In a study devoted to the provenance of the Gospel of the Ebionites, D. A. Bertrand sees the latter as a harmony of the three Synoptics (though with slight preference for Matthew), which was a precursor to Tatian’s Diatessaron. The harmony theory has recently been echoed by D. Lührmann: ‘Im Text [des Evangeliums der Ebionäer] finden sich Einzelzüge aus allen drei synoptischen Evangelien; . . . Wahrscheinlich handelt es sich um eine Evangelienharmonie.’ With regard to the influence of the Gospel of Matthew on the Gospel of the Ebionites, Throckmorton’s Gospel Parallels is the most pronounced, referencing each passage in the Gospel of the Ebionites to the First Gospel."

or if his work is more a theory

His work is speculative (theory is a rather laden term that I hesitate to use in this context), but that' why I used his paper: he disagrees with the consensus position but even his dissenting view doesn't give any evidence or indication that any Ebionite gospel was a basis for Matthew.

Further, as we know that the synoptics relied on at least one common source (the consensus view, despite challenges over the last 100+ years since Holtzmann, is that Matthew & Luke both used Mark as well as a second source Q), this would introduce yet another source we'd have to explain in relation to the synoptics when there is no evidence (and much against the view) that the authors of any of the synoptics used whatever the "gospel of the Hebrews" was.


Origen and a few others claimed the Gospel of the Hebrews was the original Matthew and also that it excluded a birth narrative.
Here's Origen:
"If any one should lend credence to the Gospel according to the Hebrews, where the Saviour Himself says, “My mother, the Holy Spirit took me just now by one of my hairs and carried me off to the great mount Tabor,” he will have to face the difficulty of explaining how the Holy Spirit can be the mother of Christ when it was itself brought into existence through the Word. But neither the passage nor this difficulty is hard to explain. For if he who does the will of the Father in heaven Matthew 12:50 is Christ's brother and sister and mother, and if the name of brother of Christ may be applied, not only to the race of men, but to beings of diviner rank than they, then there is nothing absurd in the Holy Spirit's being His mother, every one being His mother who does the will of the Father in heaven." (source)
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
I think there would be thousands who had their finger in the pie, every Council starting from Nicaea, they added and subtracted from the bible, they cannot do it today, because we are much smarter than then.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think there would be thousands who had their finger in the pie, every Council starting from Nicaea, they added and subtracted from the bible, they cannot do it today, because we are much smarter than then.

What did the council of Nicaea either add to or subtract from the bible?
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
What did the council of Nicaea either add to or subtract from the bible?

Well from the council of Nicaea, the so called bible was born, it was called the good book back then, everyone was arguing what should go into the book and what shouldn't, after much arguing they finally came to an agreement, and that's how we got the bible today.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
What did the council of Nicaea either add to or subtract from the bible?

There was lots more scripture way back when. Then the Christians started getting rid of the parts that they didn't like and canonized the rest.
What is now called The Bible is just part of the Christian scripture.

Tom
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There was lots more scripture way back when.
There are many more writings by Jewish and Christians than are in the bible. This doesn't say much about scripture. Certainly, Marcion regarded his "canon" (the first for which we have any evidence) as complete, but is included merely Luke (with some alterations) and Paul's letters. In general, the four "canonical" gospels were always given pride of place, and many of the non-canonical texts were written too near (or even after!) the council of Nicaea for them to be included in any canon.

More importantly, the council of Nicaea didn't rule on the canon but concerned Arianism (for which there are no texts that the council could have condemned).

Then the Christians started getting rid of the parts that they didn't like and canonized the rest.

One can't get rid of texts that don't exist. Most of the so-called "gnostic" gospels were written quite late (I say "so-called" because even those who argue against Williams' conclusion in Rethinking "Gnosticism": An Argument for Dismantling a Dubious Category, nobody argues that there is some category "Gnosticism" that can be readily defined other than as an nebulous term which may or may not include this or that text/view/individual and typically includes contradictory religious views). There were very few texts outside of the modern canon that were widely accepted as somehow how canonical, and most of these are quite boring compared to the dramatic contrasts posed by the Gospel of Judas or the Gospel of Mary (e.g., the didache, the Shepard of Hermas, various epistles, etc.


What is now called The Bible is just part of the Christian scripture.
It's just part of what Christians wrote, yes. But the Dennis the Menace Jesus from a proto-gospel (or infancy gospel) doesn't mean that this text was ever considered anything other than fantastical, and we have many extant manuscripts which contain lists demarcating which texts were "canonical" in some sense and a large majority of Christian texts appear no where in any of these despite the variety of the authors (of the lists) and whether they (these authors) were or weren't "heretical". On this and on the canon in general, few works are superior to Metzger's The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance. It's not particularly dense/complex, but neither is it intended for the general audience (for instance, the Greek isn't transliterated).
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Who wrote the Gospels?

Surely Jesus did not write them.

These were authored by anonymous people, doctored by Paul, the Church and their associates to suit to their ideology that has got nothing to do with Jesus or his teachings, chosen from several gospels (estimated approximately to be forty) at Nicene .

Regards
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Who wrote the Gospels?

Surely Jesus did not write them.

These were authored by anonymous people, doctored by Paul, the Church and their associates to suit to their ideology that has got nothing to do with Jesus or his teachings, chosen from several gospels (estimated approximately to be forty) at Nicene .

Regards

Thank god we have the holy Quran to show us the path of truth. There are no errors in that book at all... :rolleyes:
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well from the council of Nicaea, the so called bible was born

Please produce any shred of evidence that this is so. It would be most interesting, as the historical record not only shows there is no evidence that this council even addressed this matter, but that the formation of the canon began before it, was unrelated to it, and continued long after it.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Please produce any shred of evidence that this is so. It would be most interesting, as the historical record not only shows there is no evidence that this council even addressed this matter, but that the formation of the canon began before it, was unrelated to it, and continued long after it.

It's fair to point this out.

Nicea was the first of many councils held in the 4th century CE for the means of establishing a uniform understanding of the religion. It started to ball rolling for the final acceptance of the modern Bible, which was at the councils of Carthage.

The council in 325 dealt more with the divinity of the Christ character and some other house-keeping issues. Ya know, Nicene Creed and all that.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It started to ball rolling for the final acceptance of the modern Bible, which was at the councils of Carthage.

So far as we know, this began about 2 centuries before Nicaea with the "gnostic" Marcion, from whom we have the earliest canon. The council of Nicaea had virtually no influence on the cannon and outside of novels like The Da Vinci Code was never intended to.

The council in 325 dealt more with the divinity of the Christ character

Very true. Specifically, it did so in terms of Arianism.
 
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