Why Abrahamic faiths struggle to coexist.

[Sum1sGruj]

Here's an odd one for you: Although Christianity is an older religion than Islam, Islam, as a religion, more resembles Judaism than it does Christianity.

Ismael and Isaac are practically the split between Muslims and Jews. Jesus is the split between both and Christianity. Muslims hold Jesus as a prophet, Christians hold Jesus as the Messiah, and Jews hold Jesus as a heretic. Jews and Christians hold Muhammad as a false prophet, and Muslims and Christians hold Jews as blind dissenters.

That's pretty much the dynamics.

 

[sojourner]

Ismael and Isaac are practically the split between Muslims and Jews. Jesus is the split between both and Christianity. Muslims hold Jesus as a prophet, Christians hold Jesus as the Messiah, and Jews hold Jesus as a heretic. Jews and Christians hold Muhammad as a false prophet, and Muslims and Christians hold Jews as blind dissenters.

That's pretty much the dynamics.

I don't think that any reasonable Xian bodies (or individuals) "hold Jews as blind dissenters." Most people I know have a great deal of respect for their Jewish sisters and brothers.

 

[waitasec]

Ismael and Isaac are practically the split between Muslims and Jews. Jesus is the split between both and Christianity. Muslims hold Jesus as a prophet, Christians hold Jesus as the Messiah, and Jews hold Jesus as a heretic. Jews and Christians hold Muhammad as a false prophet, and Muslims and Christians hold Jews as blind dissenters.

That's pretty much the dynamics.

so, which one is right and why?

 

[Sum1sGruj]

I don't think that any reasonable Xian bodies (or individuals) "hold Jews as blind dissenters." Most people I know have a great deal of respect for their Jewish sisters and brothers.

They do not embrace Jesus/accept Muhammad, and therefore Christians and Muslims believe them to be blind dissenters.

so, which one is right and why?

It's all a matter of faith, really. Jews do not believe that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah and are still awaiting one.
There is a lot of issues with this alone. If the Jews bank on a Messiah, many Christians may believe him to be the Anti-Christ.
This is because Jesus warned of such a masquerade of himself.

That's sort of the backward irony between them. They co-exist peacefully now, but there is a ticking clock.

What it comes down to between them is:
Either the messianic prophesies or misinterpreted or Jesus is not the Messiah.

With Muslims, things are a little different. They believe Jesus to only be a prophet, but still a divine construct. They believe in the God of Abraham, of course, and that is why the are more Judaic rather than Christian in practice.
The prophet Muhammad delivered the word in the Holy Koran. This is thought to have been spoken of prophetically in the Bible itself.

What this comes down to is:
Either the prophesies are misinterpreted or Muhammad was a prophet.

The bottom line is interpretation. There really is no right or wrong answer, which is kind of hard for one of any religion, but it is the truth.

I personally believe Jesus to be the Messiah for many reasons. I'll throw a couple out there:
His disciples became fearless after his ascension, when beforehand they felt trepidation of sharing the fate that Jesus would undergo.
He completes the Bible in many ways. Like two jig-saws from my point of view.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

It's all a matter of faith, really.

Unfortunately, I think that in all actuality, it has very little to do with faith, and a LOT to do with what religion you were born into. There are signs that follow faith. And in our world, these signs are scarce. There are also signs that follow a lack of faith, and these signs are abundant. Sure, people throw out the word faith all of the time. I've found that more often than not when people use the word faith, they mean "The reason I can believe what I want whether it makes sense or not and I can pick and choose to listen to whatever or whoever I want and then I don't have to worry about whether I really am on the right path and I can just claim that everyone else is wrong except me." (I guess people like that have issues with run on sentences... )

I do believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the restoration of the fullness of Christ's church that he established on the earth after his ministry. However, even believing that, I find that most members of my church display very little if any faith, some blind belief, and a lot of apathy for the things of God and a lot of hearts set on the things of the world. Maybe it's just where I live... I hope so.

The problem is, we live in a world of Scribes and Pharisees. People like to argue and debate and act very grand and pretentious, but they don't like to obey God. I submit that if members of any of the disparate religions of the world actually followed what they had with their whole heart, they would be lead to a fullness of knowledge. They would learn gradually and be taught to recognize and accept truth wherever it might present itself.

I believe that Jesus teaches this concept clearly as seen throughout the Gospel of John. Such passages as these: "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

I.e. those people who follow the voice of the divine as manifested to them, would have recognized the truth as presented by Jesus. They were already trained to recognize the voice of truth and could not miss it as they heard Jesus teach.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."
"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

What I fear is happening across the world in this day is the same thing that happened in the days of Jesus. People reject truth because they construct for themselves some mental reason to reject the source. By mental I mean... logical? Cerebral? The Pharisees and other Jews latched onto the prophesy that the Messiah would come out of Bethlehem. And since Jesus was a Nazerene, they knew they could safely dismiss him as a heretic. They ignored all of the spiritual signs of truth, because they wanted to. Jesus' message did not please them. It threatened what they valued (hint: not the word of God). And they felt justified in their refusal to believe. Too bad!

"For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

This is an accurate portrayal of most of society... Guys. Let's not be like this... Let's open our eyes! Let's open our ears and our hearts! Let's follow what each has been given and stop endlessly arguing who is right and wrong for this and that reason! Let's put our faith in this message:
"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."

Whether you're Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or anything, I promise you this, those words are true. When we reach the level of humility and spiritual maturity where we actually *gasp* want to learn more, we will. And our eyes will begin to see, our hearts will begin to understand, our ears will begin to hear, and we will see things as they really are.

 

[Zardoz]

They do not embrace Jesus/accept Muhammad, and therefore Christians and Muslims believe them to be blind dissenters.

Not exactly, some of us accept both. We just don't think they are relevant to us Jews, they're sent to others.

It's all a matter of faith, really. Jews do not believe that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah and are still awaiting one.
There is a lot of issues with this alone. If the Jews bank on a Messiah, many Christians may believe him to be the Anti-Christ.

That's sort of the backward irony between them. They co-exist peacefully now, but there is a ticking clock.

...and when Yeshua returns to his people... the Jewish people... and is declared the Anti-Christ by others... won't that be truly ironic?

This is because Jesus warned of such a masquerade of himself.

Which already happened of course...

What it comes down to between them is:
Either the messianic prophesies or misinterpreted or Jesus is not the Messiah.

Or perhaps there's more than one Messiah in those prophecies.

 

[Gloone]

so, which one is right and why?

A Christian will tell you everything falls back on Judaism or Jewish people.
I’m sure you have heard this before. “You can lead a horse to water, but can’t make it drink.”
It is like asking 5 people to screw in a light bulb and all of them are stubborn and none of them want to do it. They would rather sit in a room with the lights off than take the time to fix the broken light fixture.
If religion didn’t exist, it wouldn’t even be an issue or a problem and everyone could just get on with their lives! But since it does, I imagine it will be an issue for a really long time.

 

[Badran]

generally speaking, yes.
people are not out to get at each others throats by any means.
people are generally decent. negativity speaks a lot louder than the norm.

sure people make mistakes from time to time, but think about why those who abide by the laws are generally harder working people...the general public. it's the minority that take advantage of the system that make it harder for the majority...immho

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. As far as these basics go, Abrahamic followers apply them too, to an extent, just like anybody else.

However, i'm talking about applying it fully. Giving people the exact same treatment as you'd have them treat you. Giving them the exact freedom you would have for yourself. Taking it as a code you live by, how many people do that?

If you think its the majority, then we just view people differently, and have a different understanding on how this should be applied i guess.

If you're suggesting that most people do this, but Abrahamic followers for the most part don't, you'll need to give something that shows this. As hard as it is, if not outright impossible. Since Abrahamic followers constitute a huge percentage of the world's population.

 

[BruceDLimber]

The scriptures of the Baha'i Faith explicitly recognize the other great religions, including those not Abrahamic, as being legitimate and of God!

... but incomplete, right?

No: they say no such thing.

Each was complete and good for its Age.

The Baha'i Faith is for this Age, and it, too, will eventually be superceded by a newer Divine Revelation.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

[Is the] Baha'i faith a Christian one or what? How does that work? Who are their prophets, or what prophets do they recognize?

The Baha'i Faith fully recognizes Christ and the Bible as legitimate and God-sent! So in that respect it's Christian.

But IOV the Second Coming happened about a century and a half ago with the Return of the Christ Spirit as Baha'u'llah, the Prophet-Founder of the Baha'i Faith Who appeared with the new name both the Jewish and Christian scriptures promised!

You can read more about it at: www.bahai.org and www.bahai.us

This fulfilled many prohecies; you can read about them here: www.bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled

What makes [the Baha'i Faith] an Abrahamic faith or religion?

ALL the religions revealed since Christianity have had Abrahamic Founders because They were all His descendants!

Abraham had three wives: Sarah, Hagar, and Keturah.

Jesus was descended from Abraham through Sarah.

Muhammad was descended through Hagar.

The Bab was descended through both Hagar and Muhammad.

Baha'u'llah was descended through both Sarah and Keturah.

(As an interesting side note, Shoghi Effendi, who headed the Baha'i Faith from 1921 to 1957, was descended from both Baha'u'llah and the Bab's family and was thus a descendant of ALL THREE of Abraham's wives!)

Well, Muhammad is the one and only profit to Islam pretty much. And they claim there will be no others after him.

Yes, Muslims often interpret the Qur'an as stating that Muhammad, being the Seal of the Prophets, is the final prophet and that there will be no more Divine Messengers sent by God (or Allah).

In fact, IOV this whole “last prophet” thing is based upon a misunderstanding!

There are in fact several different explanations of the verse in the Qur’an saying Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets (a statement we Baha’is accept, please note!):

• First off, there is a sense in which EVERY Divine Messenger is the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, and the Seal!

• Next, there are multiple Arabic words that all translate into English as "prophet."

One of these is "nabi," which refers to a minor prophet such as Jeremiah or Amos.

Another is Ras'ul, which means a major, religion-founding Divine Messenger like Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha'u'llah (our Founder). (And yes, Muhammad was a major--not a minor--Prophet.)

But the word actually used in the Qur'an is "nabi," meaning Muhammad was the Seal of the minor prophets! This says nothing whatever about the great Divine Messengers.

• Muhammad is also the Seal in the sense that He was the last Messenger during the Prophetic Age, which began with Adam and ended with Him. The Bab then closed out that Age and opened the Age of Fulfillment, of which Baha'u'llah is the first major Messenger.

• Finally, there is a sense in which the word commonly translated as "seal" also means "ornament," so that this verse of the Qur'an may simply be saying that Muhammad is the Ornament of the prophets! (Nothing whatever about any sort of finish.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No: they say no such thing.

Each was complete and good for its Age.

The Baha'i Faith is for this Age, and it, too, will eventually be superceded by a newer Divine Revelation.

Ah... so not "incomplete", merely obsolete and superceded. That's much better.

 

[waitasec]

It's all a matter of faith, really.

exactly...there is no right...even though they each claim to be...
which points to, either they are all right or all wrong...
considering the ancient religions of the past, which is more probable?

 

[waitasec]

However, i'm talking about applying it fully. Giving people the exact same treatment as you'd have them treat you.

who does that? who is that morally perfect?
no one...

 

[Badran]

who does that? who is that morally perfect?
no one...

No one's perfect. You might slip every now and then. However that doesn't mean this can't be applied properly. Much better than it is right now at least.

Not to mention, actually accepting that fully. Lots of people who supposedly accept that, do not in many cases apply it intentionally, and in some cases don't see why they should.

 

[waitasec]

No one's perfect. You might slip every now and then. However that doesn't mean this can't be applied properly. Much better than it is right now at least.
Not to mention, actually accepting that fully. Lots of people who supposedly accept that, do not in many cases apply it intentionally, and in some cases don't see why they should.

i disagree. people want to do the right thing...generally speaking.
even though their good and moral intentions are applied, it could still 'cause misery for others...

this is totally a subjective POV. i believe it is our insecurity that would lead us to believe someone would want to intentionally wrong us...

 

[Badran]

i disagree. people want to do the right thing...generally speaking.
even though their good and moral intentions are applied, it could still 'cause misery for others...

this is totally a subjective POV. i believe it is our insecurity that would lead us to believe someone would want to intentionally wrong us...

By intentionally, i don't mean because they enjoy it for example. But because of conflict of interest so to speak. Also i said sometimes they don't see why they should. As in they don't realize that what they're doing contradicts their supposed adherence to the golden rule.

That doesn't mean that i think people are generally awful. I just think that more people are not doing so good in regards to their adherence to the golden rule. But most people are indeed generally well intentioned.

 

[waitasec]

By intentionally, i don't mean because they enjoy it for example. But because of conflict of interest so to speak. Also i said sometimes they don't see why they should. As in they don't realize that what they're doing contradicts their supposed adherence to the golden rule.

That doesn't mean that i think people are generally awful. I just think that more people are not doing so good in regards to their adherence to the golden rule. But most people are indeed generally well intentioned.

more are not as opposed to who are?

 

[Badran]

more are not as opposed to who are?

As opposed to people who are, doing so good

People who take it extremely seriously and who's mistakes are only occasional, and as soon as they notice those mistakes they would fix it, or attempt to.

 

[Gloone]

ALL the religions revealed since Christianity have had Abrahamic Founders because They were all His descendants!

Abraham had three wives: Sarah, Hagar, and Keturah.

Jesus was descended from Abraham through Sarah.

Muhammad was descended through Hagar.

The Bab was descended through both Hagar and Muhammad.

Baha'u'llah was descended through both Sarah and Keturah.

(As an interesting side note, Shoghi Effendi, who headed the Baha'i Faith from 1921 to 1957, was descended from both Baha'u'llah and the Bab's family and was thus a descendant of ALL THREE of Abraham's wives!)

How do you know who is and isn't a descendant? I don't think Abraham was the first person to walk this planet was he? He just happen to be a traveler of some kind.

When people say father in a religion, they are referring to Abraham. Not a God though, right? So it based more on Genealogy than anything else.....

It isn't or doesn't even seem possible for everyone to be descendants of Abraham. So I take when Baha'i refers to everyone as being one single race it is referring to Abrahamic religions right? Not everyone...

 

[waitasec]

As opposed to people who are, doing so good

People who take it extremely seriously and who's mistakes are only occasional, and as soon as they notice those mistakes they would fix it, or attempt to.

i am of the opinion that those who take it to the extreme are a bit over zealous and legalistic...and the intent becomes self serving.
i am also of the opinion that within every human being, there is an element of self dignity and integrity that can only be satisfied with being as honest as one can be...
i of course go back and forth with being pessimist or an optimist in regards to how people treat each other, but the older i get the more i think the human drive always desires for the good...and good is subjective