Why am I still a bigot?

[Valjean]

Hope you realise that these mitzvot only apply to Jews. The entire Torah only applies to Jews.

And yet there it is, part of the Holy Bible, being cited every Sunday in Christian churches around the world.

 

[Rival]

And yet there it is, part of the Holy Bible, being cited every Sunday in Christian churches around the world.

Mainstream Christian doctrine also posits that only the moral law applies to Christians. Prohibitions against porc and other such things are not what Christians refer to as the law moral. According to Judaism, the people to whom the Torah was given, it (Torah) only applies to Jews while gentiles have our own law, the Noahide Code. So either way, non-Jews are not bound by laws of kashrut or other such things.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Perhaps a comparison would help you understand.

If I were to say that black people have less moral integrity than white people, would you find that racist?

I don't see how that could be taken to be anything other than racist, personally.

I don't need to advocate for racial segregation, I don't need to actually attack or hate black people for that opinion to be a form of racial prejudice. When you say that homosexuality is a sin, you're at the very least implying that homosexuals are less moral than heterosexuals.


Now I don't personally think that's as bad as, for example, attempting to suppress the rights of gay people. Actions speak far louder than words to me so if you have that view, but don't act on it, it's not a major issue for me. To be clear, I do think it's a prejudiced view and thus bigoted. I strongly disagree with your perspective. Ultimately though, if you have that view but can still agree to live and let live ... eh, it could be worse.

Note that this doesn't imply you get a free pass in debates. You will have that view challenged if you choose to take part in debates. That's the same for all of us.

Agreed.

I define a bigot as anybody that holds an irrational and potentially harmful view of every member of a law abiding class just for being a member of that class, which seems to be in accord with your position.

Certainly anybody willing to believe that homosexuals are an abomination and fit for perdition if they don't curb their natural and lawful sexual proclivities because they read it in an old book fits that description.

 

[idav]

I think homosexuality is a sin. Nothing will change that. You may say Paul was just saying lustful gays are sinning, but it can also mean it's the same as lust.

However, I don't think it's a reason to discriminate. On an individual basis like housing, jobs, and services. Events are a different matter.

I simply don't hate and call for cooperation. Why am I still a bigot? Are you just trying to feel superior?

Sure there are lots of sins in the bible but it isn't a Christians job to make sure people don't sin, especially if nobody is being harmed in society. All the law is summed up in love so its important to know why its a sin or if its just something some ignorant folks may have got wrong I also find it really weird that Jesus never even mentions homosexuality like it isn't even a thing then..

 

[PureX]

I think homosexuality is a sin. Nothing will change that. You may say Paul was just saying lustful gays are sinning, but it can also mean it's the same as lust.

However, I don't think it's a reason to discriminate. On an individual basis like housing, jobs, and services. Events are a different matter.

I simply don't hate and call for cooperation. Why am I still a bigot? Are you just trying to feel superior?

Are you?

A bigot presumes his own superiority over those he's bigoted against by the virtue of being who he is, as compared to who they are. Usually without actually knowing anything about them. So if you think you are morally superior to homosexuals simply because they are homosexual and you are not, then you are a bigot. And especially if you think they should be shunned, denigrated, or otherwise socially maligned for what you believe to be their innate moral failure.

Only you can know the answer to this question, and only then if you are willing and able to be truly honest with yourself. When others accuse us, it's usually because they are reacting to something we may have said or implied, as opposed to who we are, which in most instances they have no knowledge of.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Mirriam Webster's online definition of bigot: : "a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance"

Etymology online etymology of bigot: "1590s, "sanctimonious person, religious hypocrite," from French bigot (12c.), which is of unknown origin. Sense extended 1680s to other than religious opinions...." The article goes on about various theories about how it became a French word, but its a word borrowed from France originally about religious hypocrisy and then extended to refer to intolerance of any kind. I think hypocrisy is still implied in its use in most cases. link

So putting a spotlight onto homosexuality is bigotry for Christians who break all sorts of other Jewish laws about kosher issues and are often very overweight, often spend lots of time to themselves in selfish pursuits, often in general are very flawed people. Its bigotry whenever you criticize another person's issues unless there is a compelling reason to do so. From time to time ministers will drum up attention to the actions of a minority group, and it is very bigoted of them to do so. The Prohibition movement was bigotry for example.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

I think homosexuality is a sin. Nothing will change that. You may say Paul was just saying lustful gays are sinning, but it can also mean it's the same as lust.

However, I don't think it's a reason to discriminate. On an individual basis like housing, jobs, and services. Events are a different matter.

I simply don't hate and call for cooperation. Why am I still a bigot? Are you just trying to feel superior?

You are a bigot because you have to come here post about it. Who cares if you think homosexuality is sin, if you want to be prejudice and closed minded fine, that's your deal, but the moment you start spreading your intolerance around that is when it becomes bigotry.

And don't give me that free speech nonsense, we already know you have the right to be a loud mouth bigot, that does not change the consequences of your actions. Your silly outdated rhetoric is still harmful to those around you, especially homosexual youths who may be too naive to realize you are full of it. Would you walk up to a black child and tell him you think he is less evolved but you don't hate him for it? You would be a major jerk for doing so and your prejudice could do some lasting damage to that kid.

 

[PureX]

Mirriam Webster's online definition of bigot: : "a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance"

Etymology online etymology of bigot: "1590s, "sanctimonious person, religious hypocrite," from French bigot (12c.), which is of unknown origin. Sense extended 1680s to other than religious opinions...." The article goes on about various theories about how it became a French word, but its a word borrowed from France originally about religious hypocrisy and then extended to refer to intolerance of any kind. I think hypocrisy is still implied in its use in most cases. link

Thanks for the additional info.

I think that presuming homosexuality to be a 'sin' is one's own business, and is an ideal to be applied to one's own life (as with all "sin"). If a Christian believes homosexuality is a sin, then they should certainly do their best to refrain from engaging in it. But the ideology of 'sin' should end, there.

When we apply this 'sin' ideology to other people, and especially if we use this ideology to disparage or abuse others, we become bigots. I don't really see where the hypocrisy enters into it except perhaps in the common habit of pointing out the sins of others while denying and ignoring our own.

 

[The magical volleyball]

It's not about the world being better off. I don't think it would be better off if there were no LGBT people. I think the LGBT people themselves would be happier. From my interactions with them (and I had many at sixth form, because they made up most of my friends, believe it or not) they'd rather not be gay and consider it a curse rather than a blessing. Many really want to have children, but they never will. In my experience many of them are unhappy or depressed and wish they weren't so. In the open they appear some of the happiest people I've met; in secret, they confess to being very insecure and depressed. Regardless, even if there were no LGBT people we'd still have maaaaany problems. Gays aren't really my #1 priory.

I don't doubt that the LGBT members you have interacted with were depressed, felt insecure, or possibly even ashamed. But I doubt it was because of children. Most LGBT members I know if they want kids they will find a way. Whether it be adoption, Ivf, surrogacy Or something else. Most members I know have these negative feelings because they feel they can't fully embrace that side of themselves out of fear of ridicule and undeserved assumption of character and must hide it and keep those feelings to themselves. So i dont agree with your assumption that if they hide who they are more and don't give into their feelings they will somehow be happier.

I'm not judging the person, but I think the action is wrong. A homosexual is a homosexual, but the actions are sin. So it requires celibacy. The same as you might be attracted to children, or horses or your neighbour's husband/wife. There are many, many human issues, homosexuality is just one of them. It sucks, but there you go

Adultery is bad because the act represents the betrayal trust between two or more people. Child molestation and pedophilia are not just disgusting but also evil because it represents an adult forcing a child to do something without that child having the ability to consent. Why do you equate homosexuals to these other groups? Who are homosexuals hurting by being homosexual?

They will enter the next world

Will they enter the same next world as you and be afforded the same rights even if they don't hide and are LGBT loud and proud?

I never said that.

You did equate their feelings and actions with that of adulterers, child molesters, and pedophiles. You directed me to investigate your religion which of the seven laws includes in this order from what i was able to research.
Law 3: murders
Law 4: homosexuals, adulterers, pedophiles
Law 5: thieves
Law 7: make sure other laws are enforced
What evidence have you provided that supports your assertion that you don't believe they are as morally corrupt as the rest?

 

[SinSaber]

By events I mean weddings or other groupings that they may find objectionable. However, I believe anyone (religious, atheist, gay, straight) should be allowed to opt out of events they don't agree with

How is acknowledging sin make them less than human? If anything it's a confirmation that they are human

I believe it's a sin because it doesn't Gods plan. For every man there is a woman. More than that woman was a gift to man, because God loved Adam that much. Like wise Adam was a gift to Eve because He loved her that much. Participating in gay acts is like asking for the receipt.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

When it comes to things like homosexuality, this whole "Hate the sin but don't hate the sinner" is in fact the wolf in sheep's clothes, it is an attempt to compartmentalize their prejudice so they don't feel responsible for the damage their intolerance is causing. We are not talking about drinking, gambling or overeating, we are talking about a person's being and who they are at their core, this is what makes it different. It is basically telling a youth that they are sin at the core and their desires for love is nothing but sin. It is a horrible thing to do, and bigots have been hiding behind this nonsense for far too long. Any religious belief that tries to cast real human love as a sin is a harmful and destructive belief.

 

[PureX]

You are a bigot because you have to come here post about it. Who cares if you think homosexuality is sin, if you want to be prejudice and closed minded fine, that's your deal, but the moment you start spreading your intolerance around that is when it becomes bigotry.

And don't give me that free speech nonsense, we already know you have the right to be a loud mouth bigot, that does not change the consequences of your actions. Your silly outdated rhetoric is still harmful to those around you, especially homosexual youths who may be too naive to realize you are full of it. Would you walk up to a black child and tell him you think he less evolved but you don't hate him for it? You would be a major jerk for doing so and your prejudice could do some lasting damage to that kid.

I think you're over-reacting.

This is a place where people come to discuss these kinds of issues. So 'SinSaber' has come here and is doing this. He/she has done nothing "wrong" in sharing their ideals with us, to offer them up for debate and/or discussion. I appreciate that you feel strongly about your disagreement to the ideology being presented, but if you're accusing this person based on "spreading bigotry" I really don't think that is the intent.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

I think you're over-reacting.

This is a place where people come to discuss these kinds of issues. So 'SinSaber' has come here and is doing this. He/she has done nothing "wrong" in sharing their ideals with us, to offer them up for debate and/or discussion. I appreciate that you feel strongly about your disagreement to the ideology being presented, but if you're accusing this person based on "spreading bigotry" I really don't think that is the intent.

"I think you're over-reacting."

Good for you. . . . did you want a cookie?

 

[PureX]

When it comes to things like homosexuality, this whole "Hate the sin but don't hate the sinner" is in fact the wolf in sheep's clothes, it is an attempt to compartmentalize their prejudice so they don't feel responsible for the damage their intolerance is causing.

I agree 100%. There is no reason for anyone to "hate sin", except maybe their own. And yet that is NEVER the context in which that phrase is used. It's ALWAYS used to refer to the supposed sins of others, which is no one's business but theirs.

 

[SinSaber]

When it comes to things like homosexuality, this whole "Hate the sin but don't hate the sinner" is in fact the wolf in sheep's clothes, it is an attempt to compartmentalize their prejudice so they don't feel responsible for the damage their intolerance is causing. We are not talking about drinking, gambling or overeating, we are talking about a person's being and who they are at their core, this is what makes it different. It is basically telling a youth that they are sin at the core and their desires for love is nothing but sin. It is a horrible thing to do, and bigots have been hiding behind this nonsense for far too long. Any religious belief that tries to cast real human love as a sin is a harmful and destructive belief.

And what, you equating everyone who disagrees with you to West Borough is some how enlightened? It's a belief, from one person. If you let yourself be that depressed based one belief you just want to be miserable.

You just want to be miserable.

 

[Indagator]

Perhaps a comparison would help you understand.

If I were to say that black people have less moral integrity than white people, would you find that racist?

I don't see how that could be taken to be anything other than racist, personally.

Depends if this statement is supported by evidence or not. Because if there is sufficient evidence for this claim then... hey... Facts cant be racist

 

[Jeremiahcp]

And what, you equating everyone who disagrees with you to West Borough is some how enlightened? It's a belief, from one person. If you let yourself be that depressed based one belief you just want to be miserable.

You just want to be miserable.

I am equating it to be openly racist. You are being openly racist.

 

[Rival]

I don't doubt that the LGBT members you have interacted with were depressed, felt insecure, or possibly even ashamed. But I doubt it was because of children. Most LGBT members I know if they want kids they will find a way. Whether it be adoption, Ivf, surrogacy Or something else. Most members I know have these negative feelings because they feel they can't fully embrace that side of themselves out of fear of ridicule and undeserved assumption of character and must hide it and keep those feelings to themselves. So i dont agree with your assumption that if they hide who they are more and don't give into their feelings they will somehow be happier.

I never said it was because they wanted children. Also, adopting etc. is not the same. It is not fulfilling that biological urge so they still won't feel fulfilled biologically. I just, as a rule of thumb, see more mental disorders co-morbid with LGBT people. People who are out. My sixth form was as liberal a place as you can imagine, so I highly doubt they felt insecure because of lack of acceptance. Evidently our experiences are different.

Adultery is bad because the act represents the betrayal trust between two or more people. Child molestation and pedophilia are not just disgusting but also evil because it represents an adult forcing a child to do something without that child having the ability to consent. Why do you equate homosexuals to these other groups? Who are homosexuals hurting by being homosexual?

Homosexuals are hurting themselves I believe spiritually. As well that those men who engage in sodomy, as well as hetero couples who do this, can end up doing some serious physical damage. Of course the spiritual aspect means nothing to you. But that is my opinion. To me, personally, it's like...a male and a female is the normal way and I'm not quite sure why I'm having to justify that when it's plainly obvious. They are made for each other by design in form and function. A homosexual, like a paedophile or hebephile, just has to admit to being abnormal and carrying that cross like the rest of us.

Will they enter the same next world as you and be afforded the same rights even if they don't hide and are LGBT loud and proud?

Yes. They will go to Sheol, along with anyone else with unrepented sins, to be purified first.

You did equate their feelings and actions with that of adulterers, child molesters, and pedophiles. You directed me to investigate your religion which of the seven laws includes in this order from what i was able to research.
Law 3: murders
Law 4: homosexuals, adulterers, pedophiles
Law 5: thieves
Law 7: make sure other laws are enforced
What evidence have you provided that supports your assertion that you don't believe they are as morally corrupt as the rest?

The laws are open to interpretation as to how we deal with each.

Basically, people won't be happy until we somehow 'realise' that being gay is 'alright'. But we won't. I am a bisexual hebephile, but I'm not trying to push the idea that it's normal.

 

[Erebus]

Depends if this statement is supported by evidence or not. Because if there is sufficient evidence for this claim then... hey... Facts cant be racist

That's a huge can of worms unfortunately and possibly not something to delve into too deeply on this thread. The phrase, "There's lies, damn lies and statistics come to mind."

For example, here in the UK, white people constitute the vast majority of the prison population. You could attempt to portray this in a way that suggests that white people are inherently more criminal. In fact, the UK is predominantly white, so a higher number of criminals from that ethnicity isn't surprising.

The long and short of it is that facts themselves may not be racist but you bet they can be used in that way!

 

[SinSaber]

I don't think anyone is less than me. You clearly think I'm less than you, of wonderous and enlightened lord