Why are “some atheists” so intolerant of religious believers?

[Trailblazer]

What I mean by the victim mentality is blame and the inability to accept one's own fault. I have years of anecdotal experience with a family member and a relationship where they displayed the constant victim mentality. I'm not saying you have it, but I am noticing similarities. For instance, here you expressed what a good person you are (rent example/optimist/innocent/stands up for equality and justice/gullible) and what a bad person he is (unjust/unfair/controlling) and this is only from this snippet. This is just an observation.

First, let me say that religion is not the primary hat I have worn during my life. I am a Baha’i, have been for over 48 years, but I had dropped out for all intents and purposes for decades. Only within that last six years have I dropped back in and tried to get right with God. So what I did for a number of years was study psychology and homeopathic medicine and I am a Licensed Counseling Psychologist, although not presently practicing. I was also a client in counseling for about 20 years and a member of various 12 step programs, so I did more than my share of healing and self-reflection. I never considered myself “fit” to be a Baha’i until I got my own act together. I am not saying I am all healed, I do not think people who were emotionally damaged ever completely heal in this lifetime. But I do know I have healed more in the last six years than I did in the six years before that, because God is the Source of all healing. When counselors could no longer help me, God did.

Because of my childhood experiences, I tend to feel guilty, so I tend to blame myself for things when they go wrong. People who blame themselves often feel so guilty that sometimes they cannot take it anymore so they start blaming other people for what is not the other person’s fault, but as long as they are self-aware they can catch themselves doing that and thereby prevent conflict. I am extra cautious about that so I always analyze both sides of any relationship issue and try to figure out what is really going on. That is why I always look for evidence of what “I might have done” on a forum whenever I am accused of something. I want to take full responsibility for what I have done, but it is unjust for me to take responsibility for what I have not done, and I am not doing anyone any favors to allow them to think I am guilty as charged when I am not.

I am not saying I am a “good person” for letting the tenant get behind on his rent, I said I was an optimist so I thought he would eventually pay it. I try to look for the good in everyone, and I also see the good in that forum owner, otherwise I would not have gone back to that forum. I did not say he is generally unjust or controlling, only when it applies to my religion being posted about on his forum. I know that because I know what I did vs. what he accused me of doing, and the two are not the same. Moreover, I have the evidence of what I did and he has no evidence of what he accused me of doing, only an impression. A person does not go to court with no evidence.

But it is all over now so I want to put it in the past. I am not on bad terms with him because I sought to make amends. I realized I do not belong on that forum because he cannot tolerate me talking about my beliefs at all. I just wish he would come right out and say it, but for some reason he won’t, so I just have to assume it by what he has said.

Was this a rhetorical question?

No that was a straightforward question; does religious discrimination or justice and equity matter to anyone reading this post? After, all, that is what I am concerned about, not being hurt. I got over being hurt the same day I decided to leave that forum, because I quickly realized what happened and why it happened and what I needed to do about it.

So, what kind of justice will you implement?

That is a pretty broad topic, and it would depend upon the context what would be implemented. There is individual justice and social justice.

I was actually writing some of these down, but before I did, I stated I can only really talk about myself. I tried to answer a few and tried to relate to myself. Before I knew it, I was generalising about atheists and not talking about myself at all .

Why do you want me to generalise about atheists when you would get a much better picture if you ask the person directly what they believe? Atheists have very little in common other than they disbelieve or have non-belief. It would be like asking what non-sport players has in common or non-pc users, etc; It'll range quite widely.

That is a good point that you raised. You cannot know why other atheists think or do what they do any more than I can know why other believers think and do what they do, as we humans are all unique.

If you really wanted to know, ask us directly, don't ask atheists to generalise about other atheists as if we know anything about each other. I can answer these questions for myself, not others. However, I do not think you care what I think; the only thing you've done in this thread is generalise.

Maybe I should have asked for individual perspectives of atheists who might care to respond, in which case I would have worded that differently, asking people to answer from their own perspective as an atheist.

To say I do not care what you think is completely wrong because the reason I posted this thread is to find out what you and others think. You can speak from your own perspective but you could also answer those from a general perspective, hypothetically speaking... For example, I could answer those questions from my perspective as a believer:

• I can think of some reasons why some believers might be hostile towards atheists.
• I can think of some reasons why some believers might act out towards atheists.
• I can think of some reasons why some believers would not want to be friends with atheists.
• I can think of some reasons why some believers become hostile and even insulting when an atheist says they do not believe in God, a soul and an afterlife?

Believers might do those things because they have an air of superiority, because they are arrogant. However, a believer can be certain of their beliefs without being arrogant about it. A believer might also be fearful that maybe the atheists are right and they are wrong about what they believe, when an atheist for example confronts them with the unreasonableness of their beliefs.

However, I would never speak for any individual believer except myself, so if I answered that from my perspective I would say: There is no good reason (reason I consider acceptable, moral) for me to be hostile towards atheists or act out towards them. There is no reason (reason I consider acceptable, moral) why I would not want to be friends with atheists. There is no good reason (reason I consider acceptable, moral) why I would become hostile towards an atheist who says that he does not believe in God, a soul or an afterlife.

In short, atheists are not any different from believers except that they don’t believe in God. My religion teaches the unity of mankind and that we are all one people, so I would be going against my religious beliefs if I discriminated against anyone on the basis of race, creed, color, socioeconomic status, beliefs, or anything else.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don’t know. It’s just that something I can’t quite put my finger on gave me the impression the thread was about Why are “some atheists” so intolerant of religious believers. I even gave a perfectly valid answer to that question. A story about how one forum owner mistreated you is an entirely different topic unless you can present a concrete reason for projecting his behaviour on to any wider group of people. Again, I don’t think you did this consciously and it’s the kind of thing we can all be guilty of but that’s all the more reason to acknowledge and address it.

Yes, it is a different topic although it is related since the “reason” that forum owner treated me unfairly is because he is not tolerant of religious believers, particularly Baha’is. Moreover, most of the posters on his forum are atheists and most of them are intolerant of religious believers. That is probably because his forum attracts that kind of atheist. No doubt these intolerant atheists are exceptions to the rule, as it seems like most of the atheists on this forum are tolerant of religious believers. One does not have to “agree” with someone in order to be tolerant of their beliefs.

Sorry if it seems as if I implied that atheists in general are intolerant of religious believers. That certainly is not the case, and I would not have come back here if it was. Atheism is about one thing only, lack of belief in a God or gods. It does not define anyone’s attitudes or character. As people, atheists are all unique.

 

[Woberts]

My religion teaches the unity of mankind and that we are all one people, so I would be going against my religious beliefs if I discriminated against anyone on the basis of race, creed, color, socioeconomic status, beliefs, or anything else.

By this metric, all Bahai's are frauds.

 

[Trailblazer]

Philosophically speaking, aren't you as a Christian not supposed to have other gods besides God? You know, one of the commandments?

I am not a Christian, I am a Baha’i, but we also believe that there is only One God, and no other God besides God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Guff? Or arguments which question the basis for your beliefs? Are you just wanting to post your beliefs but not have them questioned? If you cannot factually and logically defend your beliefs, perhaps you should reexamine those beliefs. Not saying that’s the case with you, just asking.

I got both guff and questioning the basis of my beliefs. I have no problem with people questioning my beliefs and I certainly did factually and logically defend my beliefs. They just did not LIKE my facts and my logic. That is their right, but it is also my right to fire back, as long as I am respectful in my delivery.

You should never confuse attacking an idea with attacking the person. I agree with you that attacking the person is counter productive. But you should always be open to having your beliefs challenged with new ideas and logical arguments. That is how one learns new things and refines one’s beliefs and knowledge.

I fully agree, but the converse also applies if we are to be just. Atheists should also be open to having their non-beliefs challenged with new ideas and logical arguments.

There are areas on this board where people who believe in a certain god or gods can discuss their faith-based (as opposed to fact-based) beliefs without having them questioned. In these areas, no debate or argumentation is allowed. Self-imposed echo chambers, if you will, where what you want to hear is continually repeated back to you and never challenged. Perhaps that is where you should be posting if you wish to avoid having to defend your beliefs.

Good Lord! That is not where I want to be at all, how boring. Who ever said I want to avoid defending my beliefs? I like the challenges that atheists and Christians throw at me. I love defending my beliefs. Why I do not like is when I am falsely accused by the forum owner or moderators of bringing up my Baha’i beliefs or talking too much about them when all I was doing was answering questions or responding to attacks upon my beliefs. That is wholly unjust.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, it's because you act so high and mighty about how you fixed the problems with religion, and yet you're no better than anyone else.

STRAW MAN. Why do you twist what I say? I never said I “fixed” the problems with religion or that I am any “better” than anyone else. However, the fact remains that Baha’i Faith does not have the superstitious beliefs of Christianity, such as Jesus rising from the grave after being dead for days and then walking around eating and drinking, the physical body of Jesus floating up into the clouds to heaven where there is no oxygen to breathe and living there for 2000 years, only to return from the clouds, at which time people long dead will rise from graves en masse. Do you really expect intelligent people to believe these things?

If the shoe fits, wear it. Christianity is out of step with the modern age and science. Islam however, is in the same ball park with the Baha’i Faith.

 

[Woberts]

I never said I “fixed” the problems with religion or that I am any “better” than anyone else.

However, the fact remains that Baha’i Faith does not have the superstitious beliefs of Christianity, such as Jesus rising from the grave after being dead for days and then walking around eating and drinking, the physical body of Jesus floating up into the clouds to heaven where there is no oxygen to breathe and living there for 2000 years, only to return from the clouds, at which time people long dead will rise from graves en masse. Do you really expect intelligent people to believe these things?

Good job contradicting yourself.

 

[Trailblazer]

By this metric, all Bahai's are frauds.

Why is that?

 

[Trailblazer]

Good job contradicting yourself.

Nice try, but there is no contradiction whatsoever.

This has NOTHING to do with ME being better.

The Baha’i Faith HAS what the Baha’i Faith HAS and Christianity HAS what Christianity HAS. God allows people to make their own decisions which one makes more sense.

 

[charlie sc]

First, let me say that religion is not the primary hat I have worn during my life. I am a Baha’i, have been for over 48 years, but I had dropped out for all intents and purposes for decades. Only within that last six years have I dropped back in and tried to get right with God. So what I did for a number of years was study psychology and homeopathic medicine and I am a Licensed Counseling Psychologist, although not presently practicing. I was also a client in counseling for about 20 years and a member of various 12 step programs, so I did more than my share of healing and self-reflection. I never considered myself “fit” to be a Baha’i until I got my own act together. I am not saying I am all healed, I do not think people who were emotionally damaged ever completely heal in this lifetime. But I do know I have healed more in the last six years than I did in the six years before that, because God is the Source of all healing. When counselors could no longer help me, God did.

Indeed, trauma will last with people forever and in some way make up who we are but it does not define us. I sympathise with what you've told me and appreciate the reflection and honesty. I have no idea what the Baha'i religion is. However, if I am to be honest, it appears, from numerous people in this forum and the short time I've been here, that this religion is somewhat persecuted, at least online. If I may make a comment: from what you've told me about your past, can you see a resemblance of similar behaviour? You seem to have chosen to defend a religion that requires protecting and defending. All the while putting yourself in a potential victim position. This is not saying don't believe or don't defend it. One can believe something without needing to publicly take on this role. I'm sure you well know, we tend to repeat behaviour and habits, even bad ones.

No that was a straightforward question; does religious discrimination or justice and equity matter to anyone reading this post? After, all, that is what I am concerned about, not being hurt. I got over being hurt the same day I decided to leave that forum, because I quickly realized what happened and why it happened and what I needed to do about it.

Any kind of discrimination matters to me and justice also matters to me. Nonetheless, I'm not sure what you want people to do in this forum and I'm dubious it's really about these things. I'm not sure people can get over emotions as easily as one-two-three.

That is a good point that you raised. You cannot know why other atheists think or do what they do any more than I can know why other believers think and do what they do, as we humans are all unique.

Indeed. Trying to find differences between atheist and theist alone can difficult to impossible. I've known a few Buddhist who called themselves atheists and I've also deism sometimes has no further ideology - the same as the atheist. These two examples show it's nearly impossible to find differences between these two distinctions alone. To find commonality or differences you'd need to look at specifics. I don't know of any atheist ideologies and have never been part of any atheist groups. Honestly, I have no idea what we'd talk about. However, the same cannot be said for theists. There are many, many, many institutions, tautologies and ideologies based around theistic beliefs. You can get a pretty good idea what someone believes and their world view depending if they're a Christian(some denomination) vs some sort of pagan religion. Even then it can be difficult, but there are certainties. For instance, I've never met a Christian that does not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Since Jesus Christ is God, he cannot be wrong. Some differences might be how people perceived what he said rather than if it's wrong. Similarly like theists, you do get variations among atheists, like soft/hard atheist, but this is more about how they don't believe not what they believe.

To say I do not care what you think is completely wrong because the reason I posted this thread is to find out what you and others think. You can speak from your own perspective but you could also answer those from a general perspective, hypothetically speaking... For example, I could answer those questions from my perspective as a believer:

• I can think of some reasons why some believers might be hostile towards atheists.
• I can think of some reasons why some believers might act out towards atheists.
• I can think of some reasons why some believers would not want to be friends with atheists.
• I can think of some reasons why some believers become hostile and even insulting when an atheist says they do not believe in God, a soul and an afterlife?

Believers might do those things because they have an air of superiority, because they are arrogant. However, a believer can be certain of their beliefs without being arrogant about it. A believer might also be fearful that maybe the atheists are right and they are wrong about what they believe, when an atheist for example confronts them with the unreasonableness of their beliefs.

However, I would never speak for any individual believer except myself, so if I answered that from my perspective I would say: There is no good reason (reason I consider acceptable, moral) for me to be hostile towards atheists or act out towards them. There is no reason (reason I consider acceptable, moral) why I would not want to be friends with atheists. There is no good reason (reason I consider acceptable, moral) why I would become hostile towards an atheist who says that he does not believe in God, a soul or an afterlife.

The two examples you gave could classify any belief system, such as a political debate. I think it's important to differentiate why, say, an atheist would act a certain way toward a believer and vice versa. For instance, there are scripture in Islam telling Muslims not to trust atheists, which is very specific to their culture and ideology. You’d have a harder time pinpointing this for atheist and you’d end up generalising people, not beliefs. It's difficult to pinpoint what an atheist believes but it's far easier a theist, because most of the time a theist believe in a very specific ideology based on the teachings of their god. What I'm trying to get at is you need to be more specific. So these lines of questions become vague to the point of obscurity and even denote some sort of ulterior motive. Nonetheless, I will answer these questions for myself. I'll use the ones from your last post and I'll have to substantially reconstruct them.

• I wonder why people think and do what they think and do. Can you think of any reason why atheists are hostile towards believers other than that they feel threatened in some way?

• Why would atheists act out that way unless they are afraid of what I have to say about God or my religion?

• Why can’t “some atheists” be friends with believers, as opposed to only telling them they are wrong about what they believe and even brainwashed? Why do you think that atheists are compelled to keep telling me I am wrong about what I believe?I do not tell atheists they are wrong about what they disbelieve. I have been noted for saying that atheism is just as logical as belief, given there is no proof that God exists. But there is no proof that God does not exist, so belief is just as logical. There are reasons to think that God does not exist and reasons to think that God exists.

• Why do you think “some atheists” become hostile and even insulting when I say I believe in God, a soul and an afterlife? It seems to me that if atheists are so sure these do not exist they would be able to just blow me off instead of getting antagonistic. I would not get angry if someone who talked about a pink unicorn in my garage because I know there is no pink unicorn in my garage.

• Along these lines, I do not think it is not right for a believer to threaten an atheist with hell, but if they did, why would an atheist get upset about that if they are so sure there is no hell?

• Am I hostile towards atheists other than If I feel threatened in some way?

I don't feel threatened by theists, but I am reserved for fanatics. I have, on occasion, become hostile, but that's more due to frustration and reciprocating their behaviour. This rarely happens. As an observation, I have never seen atheists become hostile with Buddhist the same way they’re with Christians. This may be because of recripocal behaviour to one another.

• Are you afraid of god and/or my religion?

I'm not afraid of god, because I do not think god exists or it is unknowable, but I am reserved and cautious on how aggressive some religions can get. I don't know anything about your religion.

• Can you be friends with theists?

Yes.

• Why do some atheists tell me I'm wrong and would you?(I thought I'd try generalise a bit here)

I try avoid this, but I have been known to correct misunderstandings, logical fallacies and hypocritical remarks. I'd assume some atheists tell theists they're wrong for the same reason theists tell atheists they're wrong, whatever that is. However, it seems both are judging each other.

• Do you become hostile and insulting when I say I belief in a god or afterlife?

No, but I can become hostile when theists try force this belief onto me.

• Would a theist(probably a Christian) upset you if they threatened me with hell?

Depends how they said it. If they were scared I'd go to hell, then no. However, if they were being hostile and use hell as some sort of insult or proselytising, then I'd be annoyed. It's one thing to be concerned, it's another to force that concern onto another and judge them. An excellent example is a recent episode from the Atheist Experience. A Christian father calls in who is, I think, slowly leaving his faith. While he's telling his story(Matt gives him a lot of time) he explains his relationship with his son. The father explains, very emotionally, the first time he saw his son cry was when he realised how judgemental he was over his son. This was the father's fear of his son burning in hell. As you are well are, If you are judging people, you are probably treating them differently. Here is the episode - it's very good - I suggest you watch it. If you only want to watch the bit I said it's between 3:48 - 4:10

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

@Subduction Zone and @Bob the Unbeliever, how long do you think it'll take for people to stop blaming completely unrelated things on Marx?
I'm guessing at least another 100 years or so.

My guess? About the same time it'll take certain people, to quit blaming the Holocaust on the Catholic Church.... ?

... wait..... <snerk>

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not have a victim mentality. I was not even victimized in childhood; I was emotionally abandoned but I never sustained any kind of child abuse.

There is no relationship whatsoever between my choosing the Baha’i Faith which is a religion that sustains many attacks, to my own personal psychology. It just so happened that I become a Baha’i because I was attracted by the spiritual and social teachings, but at that time I had no idea that the Baha’i Faith was a persecuted religion. I only realized that about six years ago when I started to take the Faith seriously, which is when I started going on forums.

Do you realize that all new religions are opposed by those of older religions? You can read this and get an idea why that happens to every new religion:
ON CALUMNY, Paris Talks, pp. 102-106

I do not feel like a victim when people attack my religion because I realize that they are attacking my religion, not me. I will defend my religion when it is attacked because that is what Baha’u’llah (the Prophet Founder of the Baha’i Faith) said we should do.

Just as Jesus told His disciples to go out and spread His message far and wide, Baha’is have been enjoined by Baha’u’llah to proclaim that He has come and to teach the Faith to those who might be interested, so that is why I put myself in the line of attack. Moreover, it does not bother me one iota if people attack my religion, as it cannot harm me, since God is my protection.

You said that it is dubious that what I posted is really about justice and discrimination, and to me that indicates that you question my intent, thinking that maybe you know it better than I do.

This is what sometimes happens on these forums. I am open and honest about my life experiences and my thoughts and feelings and then some people think that they can analyze me. However, all they really end up doing is projecting their own thoughts and feelings onto me, because they have separation issues. I realize that I make myself vulnerable, but I can only be who I am; I cannot be secretive, because that is not my personality.

How true, all humans are different but nonbelievers probably vary more than believers since they have no common beliefs that cause them to have certain similarities. I find human psychology fascinating, more fascinating that religion, and in that regard I am different from most Baha’is. I always try to understand people and why they do what they do, but if they do not tell me I cannot know; so I just accept that I cannot know, because some people do not share their intentions. That is their prerogative and I won’t say I know why they choose it because there could be many reasons. I might have an opinion, but I realize I could be wrong.

No, there is no ulterior motive, I just tend say what comes to my mind in the moment and I am very spontaneous. I never plan anything. If I wonder about something, I just ask because I am curious about people, and why they think and believe as they do. I realize that others are reading what I say from their own perspective, so they might misconstrue my intent, but that is okay as long as people do not insist they know my intent better than I know it. Surely, we all do things for reasons that we are not consciously aware of, since 95% of our thoughts are unconscious, so I can only know what is conscious. The same applies to anyone.

That is a good observation and that is what I have experienced. Atheists are more prone to become hostile towards Christians than Buddhists. I have never seen an atheist become hostile at a Buddhist. One reason is that I think that most atheists in the Western world were raised Christian and they broke away for a reason. Many were hurt by Christianity and many feel hurt by a God that does not seem to “do anything” or a God that does what they consider immoral. But where do these ideas come from? They come from the Bible, but they also come from the Christian doctrines which are a distortion of what Jesus taught.

Sometimes atheists are hostile towards Islam and I think the reason is that Islam can be harsh on nonbelievers. Finally, atheists become hostile towards the Baha’i Faith because they falsely assume it is just another religion like Christianity or Islam, and they fail to see the big differences because they don’t really look. Of course, that is the fallacy of hasty generalization and the fallacy of jumping to conclusions.

“Are you afraid of god and/or my religion?”

I'm not afraid of god, because I do not think god exists or it is unknowable, but I am reserved and cautious on how aggressive some religions can get. I don't know anything about your religion.

That is what I have heard from other atheists and I can understand why they would feel that way, with some Christians are telling them they are going to hell all the time. Baha’is do not believe heaven and hell are places you go to; rather, we believe they are states of the soul, nearness to God or distance from God, respectively, and one can be in heaven or hell in either this world or in the spiritual world (afterlife).

I assume you are not an American but in the United States Christians have an influence on politics, and many atheists I know from that other forum feel that their rights are usurped by certain laws. I am not really into politics; Baha’is are completely nonpolitical, except to vote. That does not mean we do not care about social issues, we just don’t think they will be resolved through the present political system.

“Can you be friends with theists?”

Yes.

I am glad to hear that.

“Why do some atheists tell me I'm wrong and would you?(I thought I'd try generalise a bit here).”

I try avoid this, but I have been known to correct misunderstandings, logical fallacies and hypocritical remarks. I'd assume some atheists tell theists they're wrong for the same reason theists tell atheists they're wrong, whatever that is. However, it seems both are judging each other.

The obvious thing that comes to mind is that atheists tell theists they are wrong (and vice versa) simply because they think they are right. There is nothing wrong with that, but the problem ensues when they insist they are right and they try to convince the other side they are right. Moreover, since there is no proof that God exists, my position is that given the empirical evidence, there are three possibilities, and each one is equally logical:

1. God exists and communicates via Messengers (theist), or
2. God exists and does not communicate at all (deist), or
3. God does not exist (atheist)

I choose #1 and you choose #3, but that is not something to fight about, although we can discuss it if we want to.

“Do you become hostile and insulting when I say I belief in a god or afterlife?”

No, but I can become hostile when theists try force this belief onto me.

Well, I can certainly understand why. People generally become hostile when other people try to force anything on them, since most people like to make their own choices.

“Would a theist(probably a Christian) upset you if they threatened me with hell?”

Depends how they said it. If they were scared I'd go to hell, then no. However, if they were being hostile and use hell as some sort of insult or proselytizing, then I'd be annoyed. It's one thing to be concerned, it's another to force that concern onto another and judge them. An excellent example is a recent episode from the Atheist Experience. A Christian father calls in who is, I think, slowly leaving his faith. While he's telling his story (Matt gives him a lot of time) he explains his relationship with his son. The father explains, very emotionally, the first time he saw his son cry was when he realised how judgemental he was over his son. This was the father's fear of his son burning in hell. As you are well are, If you are judging people, you are probably treating them differently. Here is the episode - it's very good - I suggest you watch it. If you only want to watch the bit I said it's between 3:48 - 4:10

Thanks, that was a really good video and I listened to the whole thing. The beliefs of Tim, the believer who dropped out of Christianity, are very similar to Baha’i beliefs, namely that all religions have validity. Unfortunately, he did not have the logical answers Matt was looking for, but there are logical answers I could have given Matt. I could have stepped in and defended Tim’s side if I had called in. I have been debating atheists like Matt on forums for five years, so I know the arguments like the back of my hand and I have a retort. I am not saying that Matt did not make some good points; he did, but there are answers to everything he asked Tim. That video would be a good thread starter if you had time to start a new thread.

I have seen my fair share of both scenarios, Christians threatening hell because they sincerely care about the atheist or Christians just threatening hell because they feel superior. I have been threatened with hell by Christians a lot, so I know how it feels, but it does not bother me because I have my own conception of heaven and hell, and I don’t believe there is a Lake of Fire for everyone who is not a Christian. How anyone can believe something that ridiculous is beyond my comprehension, but I guess if you are raised believing that as a child you don’t think about it. But obviously some people did think about it because many people are dropping out of Christianity.

There is one Christian on another forum who calls me a “religious atheist” because Baha’is do not believe in the God of the Holy Bible the same way he believes, which means that I have to believe ONLY in Jesus and that Jesus is God and that Jesus is the Only Way for all eternity. I find these beliefs offensive, mainly because they exclude all other religious beliefs as well as nonbelievers.

I used to debate with Christians a lot but I finally realized it was a lost cause, because rarely are they ever going to change their beliefs and I know I am not going to change mine. After I stopped debating with Christians I started debating with atheists because it was a lot more interesting and I was actually learning something about why people disbelieve in God. Eventually I decided I do not want to debate with atheists but rather just have discussions. I will readily admit that I think it would be a good thing if they freely decided to believe in God, but that is because I think that is important to believe in God. Belief in God has more implications for the afterlife than for this life.

I have several friends I met on other forums who were ex-Christian atheists and after many years of discussion about God and Messengers of God a couple of them have now decided that God probably exists. They are still averse to the idea that God uses Messengers, but that is par for the course. I still think it is great that they think God probably exists even if they do not accept the idea that God uses Messengers to communicate.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Along these lines, I do not think it is not right for a believer to threaten an atheist with hell, but if they did, why would an atheist get upset about that if they are so sure there is no hell?

Because it's a an expression of the theist's own attitudes. Regardless of whether it's reasonable to say that God exists, when someone says "I believe *God* will send you to Hell," their implication is "*I* think you deserve Hell."

 

[Trailblazer]

Because it's a an expression of the theist's own attitudes. Regardless of whether it's reasonable to say that God exists, when someone says "I believe *God* will send you to Hell," their implication is "*I* think you deserve Hell."

It would depend upon the reason why they think you deserve Hell. If they think *everyone* who is not a Christian deserves Hell, it is not *personal* towards you, but rather it is just their belief that all non-Christians deserve Hell. Many Christians think I deserve Hell because I do not believe in Jesus the same *way* they believe in Jesus, and one Christian on another forum calls me a *religious atheist* and says I am going to Hell along with the atheists because I believe in Baha'u'llah and I side with the atheists on that forum.

Some Christians really think they are doing you a favor by warning you, as if believing what they do is as easy as falling off a log, but you can only believe what makes sense to you. Besides that, God does not want you to believe just to get to Heaven because then your belief would not be sincere, it would be selfish.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It would depend upon the reason why they think you deserve Hell. If they think *everyone* who is not a Christian deserves Hell, it is not *personal* towards you, but rather it is just their belief that all non-Christians deserve Hell.

Whatever their rationale, if they think that their God is wise and just, and if they think that their God will send someone to Hell, the implication is that they think it would be wise and just to consign that person to Hell.

This is no less insulting than, say, flipping someone the bird, so I see nothing wrong with flipping them the bird - or expressing offense some other way - right back at them.

Many Christians think I deserve Hell because I do not believe in Jesus the same *way* they believe in Jesus, and one Christian on another forum calls me a *religious atheist* and says I am going to Hell along with the atheists because I believe in Baha'u'llah and I side with the atheists on that forum.

Some Christians really think they are doing you a favor by warning you, as if believing what they do is as easy as falling off a log, but you can only believe what makes sense to you. Besides that, God does not want you to believe just to get to Heaven because then your belief would not be sincere, it would be selfish.

Yeah... I don't really care about any of this. IMO, a person's God is just a personification of their ideas of perfection and virtue, so anything that they try to pawn off on God is still just coming from themselves.

 

[osgart]

I dont think rf is a great place for empathy. Especially for those in a religion on the debate sections of this forum. Its moreso an anti religious vent fest.

Its all critical thinking, and philosophical positioning. They will constantly bring up the standards of objective evidence and the law of non contradiction, as if everything is solveable via the scientific method.

Many atheists cannot understand a religious point of view whatsoever. So they tend to demonize what they cant understand.

Im not an atheist by will. I am an atheist by sense of experience and reason. I would rather that there was an allmighty and truly just God. However i see no evidence of that being the case for many many reasons.

I carry no animosity toward non condemnational religion myself.

I have a personal spiritual worldview, and i feel no need to relate to other atheists, nor do i feel the need to bond with fundamentalists of either side, naturalism nor religion.

I mainly take in the experience of existence as a great mystery. Im wary of people who claim to have all the answers via science or religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Whatever their rationale, if they think that their God is wise and just, and if they think that their God will send someone to Hell, the implication is that they think it would be wise and just to consign that person to Hell.

This is no less insulting than, say, flipping someone the bird, so I see nothing wrong with flipping them the bird - or expressing offense some other way - right back at them.

It is true that the religion they believe in that represents the God they believe in is a reflection of their own values, because they would not believe in a religion that condemns people to Hell if they had any compassion or sense of justice.

 

[ManSinha]

I dont think rf is a great place for empathy. Especially for those in a religion on the debate sections of this forum. Its moreso an anti religious vent fest.

Its all critical thinking, and philosophical positioning. They will constantly bring up the standards of objective evidence and the law of non contradiction, as if everything is solveable via the scientific method.

Many atheists cannot understand a religious point of view whatsoever. So they tend to demonize what they cant understand.

Im not an atheist by will. I am an atheist by sense of experience and reason. I would rather that there was an allmighty and truly just God. However i see no evidence of that being the case for many many reasons.

I carry no animosity toward non condemnational religion myself.

I have a personal spiritual worldview, and i feel no need to relate to other atheists, nor do i feel the need to bond with fundamentalists of either side, naturalism nor religion.

I mainly take in the experience of existence as a great mystery. Im wary of people who claim to have all the answers via science or religion.

mmmmmmmmmmm - I would like to get a contrarian word in edge ways - I am about as much of a theist as they come - love my prophets especially the 10th and then on to a universal divine. BUT that said - and I have only been here a short time - I have at least - not experienced the atheists (self labeled or otherwise) on this forum in the same light.

Yes - they ask for objective evidence - but that is a bit of settled argument is it not? There is no agreed upon objective evidence. It is indeed subjective as per the heart and brain and mind and consciousness discussion. I have never really come across the demonization you allude to. My issue - if issue at all - has been from those who believe their way is the only way or those that intentionally try and harmonize everything to fit their teaching or world view - just my $0.03 (adjusted for inflation)

 

[osgart]

mmmmmmmmmmm - I would like to get a contrarian word in edge ways - I am about as much of a theist as they come - love my prophets especially the 10th and then on to a universal divine. BUT that said - and I have only been here a short time - I have at least - not experienced the atheists (self labeled or otherwise) on this forum in the same light.

Yes - they ask for objective evidence - but that is a bit of settled argument is it not? There is no agreed upon objective evidence. It is indeed subjective as per the heart and brain and mind and consciousness discussion. I have never really come across the demonization you allude to. My issue - if issue at all - has been from those who believe their way is the only way or those that intentionally try and harmonize everything to fit their teaching or world view - just my $0.03 (adjusted for inflation)

Well my experience has been totally different. But Rf, must be a super big forum. I dont doubt that there are totally different experiences out there!

Harmonizing everything out there to one's beliefs sure does not sound healthy!

 

[Trailblazer]

Harmonizing everything out there to one's beliefs sure does not sound healthy!

No, because there is BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY.