Why are “some atheists” so intolerant of religious believers?

[leibowde84]

In December 2017, I left a forum I had been posting on for about four years to come here because of a falling out with the atheist forum owner. I was here for about a year and then that atheist forum owner saw me posting on another forum in that forum group and invited me back to his forum. I went back in December 2018, reticently, and since then I have only been posting here on RF on a limited basis, because I do not have time for both forums. I am now very sorry I ever went back there and I hope I never make the same mistake again.

That forum pretends to be a forum for believers, ex-believers and nonbelievers but it is inhospitable for believers of any kind, particularly for believers of the Baha’i Faith. That is putting it mildly. We are discriminated against because the forum owner has a vendetta against my religion. Christians and Jews are tolerated as long as they do not talk too much about God or their religious beliefs. Mostly what they talk about on that forum are politics and social issues. So they really should not call themselves a “religious forum.”

My most recent academic background is in psychology, so I wonder why people think and do what they think and do. It seems rather obvious to me that if the atheists on that forum are hostile towards me it is because they are threatened in some way. Of course, they would never admit that. It is not as if I am a bit pushy about what I believe, and in fact I only discussed my beliefs if someone else posted to me about my beliefs. Then I responded and I got blamed for proselytizing. This is wholly unjust.

This last falling out was precipitated by the forum owner having a hissy fit for what he considered me mentioning my religion too much and then he put me on moderation. I sent him a private message that I will not post on his forum while on moderation because that is unjust, since I broke no forum rules, and I told him I was leaving his forum. Of course most of the atheists are glad I am gone. I am also glad I am gone because now I am back here and the atheists on this forum have been so different. They are mature adults, not little children acting out.

There is no reason why those atheists would act out that way unless they were afraid of what I have to say. They do not react to the other believers on that forum that way because they do not dare talk much about God or their religion, because they are too afraid of being insulted. But I never cared about being insulted; I stood right up to them, but I was always polite. And I never told them that they should believe in God, as I am very well aware of the reasons atheists do not believe in God and I respect those reasons. Why can’t we all just get along? Is that too much to ask?

Imagine that! I dare to talk about God and my religion on a “religious forum.”

The forum owner just wants to control everything I post, it is so obvious. Why can’t other people see this? It is psych 101 stuff. I know atheists are intelligent, but the atheists on that forum seem to wear blinders regarding the reasons for their fearless leader’s behaviors.

Finally, they call that forum a “free thinkers” forum and I find the very ironic, because nobody has changed the way they think since I went there five years ago. They are not free to think anything that contradicts their atheism and they don’t want to hear about it. Then they rank on believers and say we are not free to think because we have a religion. They say we are just “brainwashed believers.” It is comical that they cannot understand their own behavior, but it is also rather sad.

I understand that a lot of atheists are ex-believers who were hurt by Christianity but it is not fair to take that out on me. I did not do anything to them except try to be their friend. But they cannot be friends with a believer, all they can do is tell me I am wrong about what I believe. They say there is no God, no soul and no afterlife but they have no proof of that. I readily admit believers have no proof either, but there is evidence. By contrast, atheists have no evidence that there is no God, no soul and no afterlife, so they should just admit that, instead of insisting they know. I guess it makes them uncomfortable to have to think about these things, but if they are so sure they do not exist they would be able to just blow me off instead of getting antagonistic. This is psych 101 stuff.

I am interested in what the atheists on this forum have to say about this, but I am also open to hearing the opinions of believers.

Obviously enough, reason would dictate that the proportion of intolerant atheists be equal to or below the proportion of intolerant religious people. In my experience, there are far more intolerant religious people (just think of the amount of religious people who are intolerant of same-sex marriage), but that is merely my experience.

All in all, intolerance in all forms should not be tolerated, but, instead, ridiculed (ironic, I know). Your question here seems to be "why are people jerks?" And, I don't think anyone really knows.

 

[Trailblazer]

I feel for your plight, but consider the abuse atheists receive from believers, yesterday alone i was the target of verbal abuse/insult twice on this forum, once resulted in me putting the culprit on ignore, the other resulted in words in kind.

There are far more believers than atheists and i would say the exchange of abuse is roughly equivalent to the number of members in each grouping

Say there are 10 atheists and 1 or 2 are effected by the abuse they receive and fight back whether it be to the religious abuser or to religious people in general

For the same number of atheists there will be 30 or 40 religious people with around 3 to 8 who are abusive of to atheists.

This constant barrage of abuse will temper a persons attitude no matter how laid back they believe themselves to be.

Would you consider this a fair comparison?

Also consider many of the holy books teach intolerance to those not of their own faith, holy book literalists seem to be the culprits here. So you can add to that 3 to 8 an extra couple

As for you, we have had our disagreements in the past but despite being somewhat close minded and intransigent to different views you have always been polite in explaining your view as i would hope i have.

Remember, atheist are also human beings, with human emotions. If one gets up your nose the chances are they are simply reacting to how they have been treated

Here on RF there is always the option to ignore them.

Yes, I consider that a fair comparison, and I am very big on fairness, justice and equity. That is why I get so upset about inequity and injustice, no matter who commits it.

I feel your plight as a minority of the population, although in Europe you have a lot more company than atheists in the U.S. Still, in the Western world, Christians are in the majority, and as a Bahai I get the same flak as you do from Christians, only for a different reason. I am constantly called a "religious atheist" on another forum I post on because I always stand up for the atheists on that forum.

I tend to gravitate towards minorities and those who have been discriminated against. Certainly, many believers discriminate against atheists and think that they are superior. That has never been my position, people are people. What matters is their character and how they live their lives, not their beliefs. Sure, there are a few atheists who have given me a bad time about my beliefs, but that does not mean their character is bad. They are just standing up for their position the same way I do.

I think we should both have an equal say on a religious forum, but on that forum I cited in the OP that right is not afforded to Baha'is because the forum owner does not like my religion, so he does not tolerate it being discussed, even if people on the forum want to discuss it. After all, nobody is holding a gun to their head making them post to me. Maybe a few of the atheists don't like hearing about my beliefs but it is really only the forum owner who controls what happens there; it is a dictatorship, not a democracy.

I tried to be a friend of everyone on that forum I just left, Christians and atheists alike. The owner said I had "trouble" on his forum, but what he failed to see is that I had no trouble with anyone except him. I pointed that out in a personal message and that is all I can do. If his prejudice against me and my religion is so strong that he cannot even understand what actually happened, he will have to live with that. I know what happened because I have actual evidence, by way of all the posts I posted and what they contained. That is irrefutable evidence, yet when presented with that evidence, he did not acknowledge it. Maybe he did acknowledge it to himself though, I cannot ever know that.

 

[osgart]

What i dont like is the picking and pulling of generalizations of arguments. Some bad apple affiliates with a religion, therefore all religious people are characterized by the bad apple.

You could speak of bad secular apples and bad religious apples, and you would find cases of each. Neither bad apples are representative of the whole.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

When some people leave a religion they do not leave the zealotry behind but merely transfer it to another worldview. Hence a lot of atheists go into an "anti-theist stage" in which theists are not tolerated in general regardless of how the theists acts.

I have noticed that when comparing people raised in a religion with those newly converted to that religion, a similar phenomenon appears. The newly converted are extremely enthusiastic and strict about their approach to the religion, while those raised in it are much loser and relaxed about it. I have seen similar differences between native speakers and second language learners of languages too.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Yes, I consider that a fair comparison, and I am very big on fairness, justice and equity. That is why I get so upset about inequity and injustice, no matter who commits it.

I feel your plight as a minority of the population, although in Europe you have a lot more company than atheists in the U.S. Still, in the Western world, Christians are in the majority, and as a Bahai I get the same flak as you do from Christians, only for a different reason. I am constantly called a "religious atheist" on another forum I post on because I always stand up for the atheists on that forum.

I tend to gravitate towards minorities and those who have been discriminated against. Certainly, many believers discriminate against atheists and think that they are superior. That has never been my position, people are people. What matters is their character and how they live their lives, not their beliefs. Sure, there are a few atheists who have given me a bad time about my beliefs, but that does not mean their character bad. They are just standing up for their position the same way I do.

I think we should both have an equal say on a religious forum, but on that forum I cited in the OP that right is not afforded to Baha'is because the forum owner does not like my religion, so he does not tolerate it being discussed, even if people on the forum want to discuss it. After all, nobody is holding a gun to their head making them post to me. Maybe a few of the atheists don't like hearing about my beliefs but it is really only the forum owner who controls what happens there; it is a dictatorship, not a democracy.

I tried to be a friend of everyone on that forum I just left, Christians and atheists alike. The owner said I had "trouble" on his forum, but what he failed to see is that I had no trouble with anyone except him. I pointed that out in a personal message and that is all I can do. If his prejudice against me and my religion is so strong that he cannot even understand what actually happened, he will have to live with that. I know what happened because I have actual evidence, by way of all the posts I posted and what they contained. That is irrefutable evidence, yet when presented with that evidence, he did not acknowledge it. Maybe he did acknowledge it to himself though, I cannot ever know that.

Justice, fairness and injustice are a topic unto themselves. I think we all experience instances of them to some degree or another. I have to admit that I often let some of the little ones go, but they can be no less biting at times than the larger ones that require addressing. The only difference is that the bite does not seem to last as long.

 

[ChristineM]

Yes, I consider that a fair comparison, and I am very big on fairness, justice and equity. That is why I get so upset about inequity and injustice, no matter who commits it.

I feel your plight as a minority of the population, although in Europe you have a lot more company than atheists in the U.S. Still, in the Western world, Christians are in the majority, and as a Bahai I get the same flak as you do from Christians, only for a different reason. I am constantly called a "religious atheist" on another forum I post on because I always stand up for the atheists on that forum.

I tend to gravitate towards minorities and those who have been discriminated against. Certainly, many believers discriminate against atheists and think that they are superior. That has never been my position, people are people. What matters is their character and how they live their lives, not their beliefs. Sure, there are a few atheists who have given me a bad time about my beliefs, but that does not mean their character bad. They are just standing up for their position the same way I do.

I think we should both have an equal say on a religious forum, but on that forum I cited in the OP that right is not afforded to Baha'is because the forum owner does not like my religion, so he does not tolerate it being discussed, even if people on the forum want to discuss it. After all, nobody is holding a gun to their head making them post to me. Maybe a few of the atheists don't like hearing about my beliefs but it is really only the forum owner who controls what happens there; it is a dictatorship, not a democracy.

I tried to be a friend of everyone on that forum I just left, Christians and atheists alike. The owner said I had "trouble" on his forum, but what he failed to see is that I had no trouble with anyone except him. I pointed that out in a personal message and that is all I can do. If his prejudice against me and my religion is so strong that he cannot even understand what actually happened, he will have to live with that. I know what happened because I have actual evidence, by way of all the posts I posted and what they contained. That is irrefutable evidence, yet when presented with that evidence, he did not acknowledge it. Maybe he did acknowledge it to himself though, I cannot ever know that.

You dont owe that forum anything so just forget it. Your are appreciated here

 

[Trailblazer]

Exactly the same range of reasons some theists do. Exactly the same reason some people do the same kind of thing in politics, science, art, education and religion. Some will be afraid of hearing something they don’t want to, some will just be being difficult for their own entertainment, some will be just idiots, some may truly believe your opinions are dangerous.

I fully agree with that.

The fact remains that this is a human trait so there is no valid reason to single out any specific subgroup in the way you did. Maybe your just afraid of hearing what they want to say and you’re rationalising that by perceiving all their responses as hostile. Psychologist, psycho-analyse yourself?

I did not single out atheists as a "subgroup." I was careful to say that this is not about atheists, it is only about one particular atheist who has treated me unjustly. I have no problem with any of the other atheists on that forum, even though they attacked by beliefs constantly. This is about INJUSTICE and INEQUITY, and not about belief and unbelief.

What you might not understand is that I have no problem with atheists and I do not consider them a subgroup. Baha'is believe that we are all one people, so we do not divide people into subgroups. But maybe because you consider yourselves a subgroup, you project that thought onto me?

I can understand that after having been discriminated against or attacked by believers that is what atheists would come to expect, but I do not think it is fair to generalize from many to one. Why can't you imagine a believer who is different from the norm? I like to be believed when I bear my soul to people, when I say that I like and respect people according to their character, not according to their beliefs or lack thereof. All my closest friends on other forums are atheists, not believers. I only have one close Baha'i friend. I have my own issues with God and religion, but that is another subject.

 

[QuestioningMind]

In December 2017, I left a forum I had been posting on for about four years to come here because of a falling out with the atheist forum owner. I was here for about a year and then that atheist forum owner saw me posting on another forum in that forum group and invited me back to his forum. I went back in December 2018, reticently, and since then I have only been posting here on RF on a limited basis, because I do not have time for both forums. I am now very sorry I ever went back there and I hope I never make the same mistake again.

That forum pretends to be a forum for believers, ex-believers and nonbelievers but it is inhospitable for believers of any kind, particularly for believers of the Baha’i Faith. That is putting it mildly. We are discriminated against because the forum owner has a vendetta against my religion. Christians and Jews are tolerated as long as they do not talk too much about God or their religious beliefs. Mostly what they talk about on that forum are politics and social issues. So they really should not call themselves a “religious forum.”

My most recent academic background is in psychology, so I wonder why people think and do what they think and do. It seems rather obvious to me that if the atheists on that forum are hostile towards me it is because they are threatened in some way. Of course, they would never admit that. It is not as if I am a bit pushy about what I believe, and in fact I only discussed my beliefs if someone else posted to me about my beliefs. Then I responded and I got blamed for proselytizing. This is wholly unjust.

This last falling out was precipitated by the forum owner having a hissy fit for what he considered me mentioning my religion too much and then he put me on moderation. I sent him a private message that I will not post on his forum while on moderation because that is unjust, since I broke no forum rules, and I told him I was leaving his forum. Of course most of the atheists are glad I am gone. I am also glad I am gone because now I am back here and the atheists on this forum have been so different. They are mature adults, not little children acting out.

There is no reason why those atheists would act out that way unless they were afraid of what I have to say. They do not react to the other believers on that forum that way because they do not dare talk much about God or their religion, because they are too afraid of being insulted. But I never cared about being insulted; I stood right up to them, but I was always polite. And I never told them that they should believe in God, as I am very well aware of the reasons atheists do not believe in God and I respect those reasons. Why can’t we all just get along? Is that too much to ask?

Imagine that! I dare to talk about God and my religion on a “religious forum.”

The forum owner just wants to control everything I post, it is so obvious. Why can’t other people see this? It is psych 101 stuff. I know atheists are intelligent, but the atheists on that forum seem to wear blinders regarding the reasons for their fearless leader’s behaviors.

Finally, they call that forum a “free thinkers” forum and I find the very ironic, because nobody has changed the way they think since I went there five years ago. They are not free to think anything that contradicts their atheism and they don’t want to hear about it. Then they rank on believers and say we are not free to think because we have a religion. They say we are just “brainwashed believers.” It is comical that they cannot understand their own behavior, but it is also rather sad.

I understand that a lot of atheists are ex-believers who were hurt by Christianity but it is not fair to take that out on me. I did not do anything to them except try to be their friend. But they cannot be friends with a believer, all they can do is tell me I am wrong about what I believe. They say there is no God, no soul and no afterlife but they have no proof of that. I readily admit believers have no proof either, but there is evidence. By contrast, atheists have no evidence that there is no God, no soul and no afterlife, so they should just admit that, instead of insisting they know. I guess it makes them uncomfortable to have to think about these things, but if they are so sure they do not exist they would be able to just blow me off instead of getting antagonistic. This is psych 101 stuff.

I am interested in what the atheists on this forum have to say about this, but I am also open to hearing the opinions of believers.

I suspect that the vast majority of atheists who are intolerant of religious believers at some time encountered religious believers who were intolerant of them. Whereas religious believers may encounter intolerance on religious debate sites like this, there are plenty of atheists who encounter intolerance from religious believers in there everyday lives, from communities that subtly shun them to living in states where atheists aren't allowed to run for public office.

 

[Trailblazer]

Was it believers in general they were "intolerant" of, or was is proselytizers? Nobody likes to be sold to.

I think it is both believers and proselytizers they are hostile to, but they make up their own definition of proselytizing to mean anyone who shares their beliefs, even if it is only in response to others inquiring about them. This is wholly unjust.

proselytize: convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another. https://www.google.com

I never tried to convince or convert anyone to my religion, I always said that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone else except himself. To be told by the forum owner and other staff that I am proselytizing is as much as calling me a liar or unaware of my own intent. It is not only disrespectful but it is arrogant. I would never tell anyone what their intent is, let alone contradict someone who already stated their intent.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think it is both believers and proselytizers they are hostile to, but they make up their own definition of proselytizing to mean anyone who shares their beliefs, even if it is only in response to others inquiring about them. This is wholly unjust.

As unjust as passing a verdict with only one side of the story?

proselytize: convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another. https://www.google.com

I never tried to convince or convert anyone to my religion, I always said that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone else except himself. To be told by the forum owner and other staff that I am proselytizing is as much as calling me a liar or unaware of my own intent. It is not only disrespectful but it is arrogant.

"Disrespectful and arrogant" doesn't necessarily imply incorrect.

I would never tell anyone what their intent is, let alone contradict someone who already stated their intent.

By my count, you did this about 14 times just in the OP of this thread.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course, you have the advantage of presenting both sides in whatever happened in this anonymous discussion board, so you can characterize their posts however you want without any risk that anyone here will pull out a link and say "that's not how it happened."

That is true, but there is no way around that. I am not trying to get people to side with me, I am just expressing myself and trying to get opinions from others.

I would love for people to see what actually happened because it was grossly unjust. When a forum owner can hurl accusations at me and then immediately put me on moderation right after I tried to defend myself, and I broke no forum rules in doing so, that is unjust. It is simply a way to prevent me from defending myself with evidence. I have all the evidence of what actually happened in the posts I was able to search for and that does not even count for anything.

This is not about believer vs. atheist. My four best forum friends left that forum a long time ago because of the way the staff treated them, so this is not only about me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That is true, but there is no way around that.

I can think of one way around it, but you've refused to do it.

I would love for people to see what actually happened because it was grossly unjust.

Since you have that power but have chosen not to use it, I don't believe you.

 

[Vinayaka]

The owner of any forum can determine the way they want to run it. The internet is a free place. Anyone can set up their own forum, and then they can be the boss of it, and run it whatever way they want to. There are lots of one religion only forums where nothing outside of that religion is tolerated. Same with atheist forums, or political forums. If you feel unwelcome at any particular forum, be it a motorcycle discussion forum, a movies forum, or whatever, just don't go. For me, it's really that simple. I've been a mod, and people complaining about moderation was a constant hassle. Thank goodness the owner there just banned them after 3 strikes.

As a general rule in life, I don't go where I'm not invited.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think atheists are intolerant of believers. Atheists just don't believe in the supernatural or ancient Middle Eastern myths.. which are entertaining, but often silly.

Yes, that is true of almost all atheists I have encountered, although there are a few exceptions, there are always exceptions. I was talking about the exceptions.

Actually, many Christians are looking for the message in the didactic literature and are disinterested in whether Jonah sat in the belly of a whale or the sun stood still for Joshua.

Many Christians have rejected the whole Scofield heresy and futuristic version of Revelation by such poor scholars as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye and before them the Millerites.

That is sure good to hear.

 

[Vinayaka]

This is not about believer vs. atheist. My four best forum friends left that forum a long time ago because of the way the staff treated them, so this is not only about me.

I'm guessing lots of people have left this forum for the very same reason. At least that's what they said as they slammed the door behind themselves. Fact is you can't please or cater to everyone.

 

[Trailblazer]

When some people leave a religion they do not leave the zealotry behind but merely transfer it to another worldview. Hence a lot of atheists go into an "anti-theist stage" in which theists are not tolerated in general regardless of how the theists acts.

And some atheists stay in that stage for a lifetime.

 

[Trailblazer]

Obviously enough, reason would dictate that the proportion of intolerant atheists be equal to or below the proportion of intolerant religious people. In my experience, there are far more intolerant religious people.

Yes, I agree about that proportion and that has been my experience. Maybe that is one reason I tend to like hanging around with atheists. I detest intolerance.

 

[Trailblazer]

You dont owe that forum anything so just forget it. Your are appreciated here

Thanks, that means the world to me.
I won't say anything more about what happened, it is too painful, but I will get over it, just like last time.
I am sure glad I still have atheists to post to, and nice ones at that.

 

[Trailblazer]

I suspect that the vast majority of atheists who are intolerant of religious believers at some time encountered religious believers who were intolerant of them. Whereas religious believers may encounter intolerance on religious debate sites like this, there are plenty of atheists who encounter intolerance from religious believers in there everyday lives, from communities that subtly shun them to living in states where atheists aren't allowed to run for public office.

Yes, I agree, and that is just wrong. Judging someone according to their belief or non-belief is no different from judging them according to the color of their skin. People are people and they should all be afforded the same dignity and respect.

 

[Cassandra]

I am not sure it is a good idea to reveal the forum name here.
I am trying this understand this, that is all. To do that I had to explain what happened. Of course there are always two sides to any story.

But evidence is evidence so if there is no evidence for what I was accused of doing, and he could not produce it when asked to. I went looking for the evidence myself and I proved my point, that I was being accused falsely. I posted that evidence to him in a private message and he still did not acknowledge it. Where do I go from there?

All I see is someone reflecting negatively without allowing us to check his story.