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Why are certain mythologies more popular than others?

SethZaddik

Active Member
I know what Plutarch says. I also know the time he lived. You have not even read what Guthrie or Kerenyi say. You are unaware that they are aware of Plutarch. You are unaware of the issues surrounding the tracing of the origins of the cult of Dionysos. Your childish goading changes none of that.

Neither of those people are more knowledgeable than Plutarch who would have said "perscieved to be identical, but are not."

If that is what he wished to communicate.

But he said "Are identical."

If your named pseudo-scholars don't know this I am not interested in reading anything they wrote.

Does the Pope know more about St. Peter today than did the people who lived in his generation?

Can he change history by simply claiming ancient sources that had more information closer to the source were wrong if he says so?

Not in reality.

Personally to dispute Plutarch and claim to know better than someone who lived at the time in question is idiotic and egotistical.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
To those interested in studying ancient Greek religion, I also recommend Orpheus and Greek Religion by Guthrie. An excellent book, it does a good job of presenting what is known of the Orphic tradition and how it relates to the wider cults and practices of the Greek world. Dionysos, being a center of the Orphic cult, receives some attention in the work.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
For those looking for a more ancient and reliable source I recommend Plutarch.

He was actually alive when Dionysus worship existed and well informed, I don't think a better source exists tbh.

People need money. Books make money but you have to write them using ancient sources if learning of Antiquity.

Why not go to their sources instead?

All are public domain and free to read online.

And free of the opinions of modern people who are less knowledgeable than their sources and will speculate whenever possible. Ancient authors didn't have to because the information was prevalent at the time to the informed.

No modern writer can possibly know more than one who was there.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Because if I explain it you it is just me saying it.
Or, it would indicate that you actually know what you're talking about, rather than jetting to Google and finding something that could be quite wrong. There is knowledge to be found on Google, but there's also a lot of misinformation and - in a word - crap. There is also the very strong possibility - as we see here - that you see one source, misinterpret it, take it for the absolute truth, and reject everything else.

And there is a chance you will just plain reject my answer because I disagreed with you which would be a waste of my time.
There is that chance regardless. Yet your show here with von bek doesn't shine any brighter; it's a very poor show to give one source, and when it is explained why that's not accurate, fall back to throwing barbs and "So, yeah..."'s It doesn't look good at all.

Serious scholars have conducted research trying to trace the origins of Dionysos worship. Simple answer, His origins are murky. He may be of Asiatic origin. He may not be, too.
I've commonly heard that as well, yeah. One book that I have - the Encyclopedia of Spirits by Judika Illes (who did quite a bit of research, it's fairly impressive) - lists his origins from Thrace: modern Bulgaria and Romania. If so he shares the same general origins as that of Hekate.

Idk about Norse, probably just from our European past honestly, plus sadly a nice dose of white supremacy.
English culture is born largely from Norse culture (specifically Anglo-Saxon.) Though I do quite urge people to not attribute the racism of a few modern Heathens to the ancient culture; Norse culture was actually quite diverse and inclusive of other races. It wasn't a Liberal Wonderland, as there were some people they just didn't encounter too often, but there were Asian and Arab traders, and native Icelanders like Bjørk even now display inter-culture relationships.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
I've commonly heard that as well, yeah. One book that I have - the Encyclopedia of Spirits by Judika Illes (who did quite a bit of research, it's fairly impressive) - lists his origins from Thrace: modern Bulgaria and Romania. If so he shares the same general origins as that of Hekate.

The name of Dionysos is found in ancient Mycenaean script. So, His worship is pretty ancient in the region. Some have tried to draw conclusions about His origin from the animals associated with Him. The tiger is a frequent companion, which suggests an Asiatic origin. However, it takes a lot more than that to establish a definitive connection. Another thing is that Dionysos was often considered a patron of people on the periphery of society. His ways are considered threatening to the interests of more conservative rulers. His appearance in many myths is as of one who appears from the outside, bringing a way of life that is considered alien. These things could suggest He was thought of as a "foreign" divinity. Of course, every society has rebels and those who desire to transcend the established boundaries. Given this, it is not impossible that a the worship of a god of "outsiders" could be fully established by people within that society.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I've noticed in communicating with various pagans online and in person that certain mythologies are far more popular among the pagans than others. But not just pagans. Among popular culture it almost always seems like we get the big 3 , Egypt, Norse, greek and little else. Why isn't Mesopotamian mythology more popular? I have my own opinions on this but I am curious to hear what you think.

I would say that the popular mythologies among pagans and the popular culture have a big effect on one another. With some people I know only getting into paganism after reading things like the Thor comics which got them to study the actual myths.
The evolution of writing in how that has manifested is the fundamental reason.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Why are the prevailing stories behind "Star Wars" and "Harry Potter" bigger than those behind "John Carter" or "Serenity"? Obviously you will have some individuals preferring one to the other, but on the whole, some stories are crafted with more care - resonate with more people, the character's are more compelling - or the stars aligned in the selection of people cast in the movie versions that appealed to the larger audience and made the whole franchise something "more".

Sad as it may be, it is the same with any series of stories... no matter how ancient or rooted in mystical/ancient narrative, some stories are just not as appealing - contain strange, or conflicted elements. Contain pieces people don't like.

Something is bound to rise to the top... which means that others fall lower on the scale.
 

Frolicking_Fox

Artemis, Athena, and Buddha. Anarcho-Communist.
I've noticed in communicating with various pagans online and in person that certain mythologies are far more popular among the pagans than others. But not just pagans. Among popular culture it almost always seems like we get the big 3 , Egypt, Norse, greek and little else. Why isn't Mesopotamian mythology more popular? I have my own opinions on this but I am curious to hear what you think.

I would say that the popular mythologies among pagans and the popular culture have a big effect on one another. With some people I know only getting into paganism after reading things like the Thor comics which got them to study the actual myths.

I am a Hellenice Pagan (Greek Myth), mostly because I have Greek Heritage. I started away from Christianity at a younger age, and have been following my ancestors in their beliefs. However, I do agree with you. I feel like many people choose theirs due to popularity and media outlook.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Osiris is the source of Dionysus mythology.

It's not innaccurate to say they are the same. One is Egyptian the other Greco-Egyptian.

The problem with studying any source, especially ancient, is that it requires more than taking things at face value. There are worldviews and perceptions that differ, sometimes radically, between ancient and modern thought.

The difficulty you're having with the others here and in your interpretation of Plutarch seems due to you either forgetting or not being familiar with two dominant and unavoidable influences of the ancient world: Hellenization and interpretatio graeca. Hellenization is Greece's wide spread influence on other cultures. Egypt was greatly Hellenized thanks to the Ptolomies' 300 year dynasty, so there was an acceptance that helped to blur distinctions. Interpretatio graeca is the ancient Greek's version of comparative mythology, Hellenic myths and deities were the measure by which others' deities and myths were interpreted. The gods and myths of other cultures were that other culture's (less than perfect) understanding of deities.

When citing ancient sources, it's also important to recognize that quite often what is being cited is a translation of that source for which the wording and nuances of those quotes can differ from one translation to the next. Scholars fluent in ancient Greek dialects can and do differ on how their interpretations are phrased. "Equated with" or "counterpart to" are closer to the mark than "same as" which implies identical - clones so to speak. Commonly it amounts to there being several parallels between god A and B.

As Walter F. Otto notes in "Dionysus: Myth and Cult":

“The story of his [Dionysos] horrible death, which is mirrored in so many cult practices and is eloquently represented in one myth we still have, is undeniably like the famous myth of Osiris… This has let scholars even very recently to believe that the myth of Dionysus must be explained as a copy of the Egyptian myth… [and] the comparison of Dionysus with Osiris… constitutes a major portion of Plutarch’s essay on Isis and Osiris

However, the myth of the death of Osiris differs from that of Dionysus in far too many important points. Isis plays a significant role in the former, but the Dionysiac myth knows nothing of a figure comparable to her. Osiris is first shut up in a coffin and is killed in this way. Later Typhon tears him into fourteen parts which he scatters far and wide. Nothing is said about eating the dismembered body. And finally, Osiris meets his deadly fate when he has reached a man’s estate, after he has ruled for many years filled with blessings, while Dionysus is a boy when he is overcome by the Titans. These are not incidental characteristics. On the contrary, they give the death myth of Dionysus its character and make the similarities with the Osiris myth appear unessential.” -
p. 195​

A helpful book on the topic of interpretatio graeca is Greco-Egyptian Interactions: Literature, Translation, and Culture, 500 BC–AD 300 by Ian Rutherford.

Another problem with assuming "same god, different name" is that there is not one simple history or definition of a god. Characteristics for one deity vary not only over time but could differ regionally, even within the same era. "Same god, different name" requires selectively choosing to observe just those elements that are similar and disregarding the entirety of a god's nature.

Even etymologically there is a connection. I forget exactly how but I have seen it broken down.

Their etymologies are unrelated. Dionysus descends from "dios" which is associated with Zeus. Osiris' name is NOT "Osiris" but Wesir. "Osiris" is actually the Latin transliteration of Wesir.
 
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The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Excuse you! Rude. Is it impossible for you to say something nice without having to throw in an unnecessary insult? Wow, you must really hate Christianity and Islam. Sad.

But he's not wrong, is he? Islam borrowed from Judeo-Christian mythology, Christianity borrowed from a mixture of Jewish & Pagan mythologies. Also, that last bit makes you read like Trump ;)
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
That's what makes Greek mythology popular because it incorporates the world's collective mythology in it.

It's influenced by interactions with alien cultures but there are few cultures that are not so this really isn't worthy of remark.


Cronos-Saturn-El are the same for instance, Greek-Roman-Semitic

Actually the Roman gods only became conflated with the Greek ones after the Roman conquest of the Hellenes - a lot of the gods of Rome gained epithets more & more similar to their Greek counterparts.


Dionysius is Osiris

Nope. Callisto has already explained why the similarities, while worth mentioning, do not mean the two are the same god.


Adonis is Bacchus

Dionysus is actually Bacchus, not Adonis. Bacchus derives from a Greek epithet for Dionysus: Bakcheos.


Appollo is the sun god I think.

Apollo was a sun god. The wonderful thing about polytheism is you don't get to stuff deities into confining boxes. The traditional sun deity (before his cult was absorbed by that of Apollo) was the Titan called Helios.


Hercules-Sampson-Gilgamesh

While there are similarities, they're not necessarily the same character.

Imagine us non-Muslims started telling you that all your prophets were really just Zoroaster or Abraham reincarnating again & again. Would you not consider that at least impolite?
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I've noticed in communicating with various pagans online and in person that certain mythologies are far more popular among the pagans than others. But not just pagans. Among popular culture it almost always seems like we get the big 3 , Egypt, Norse, greek and little else. Why isn't Mesopotamian mythology more popular? I have my own opinions on this but I am curious to hear what you think.

I would say that the popular mythologies among pagans and the popular culture have a big effect on one another. With some people I know only getting into paganism after reading things like the Thor comics which got them to study the actual myths.

In any niche, there's generally only room for a few popular items. The big mythologies have been marketed for so long, they've pretty much established a monopoly on the market.

Besides, they mostly include the same collection of archetypal characters and events. It would be nice if Native American mythologies would get more exposure, as they have some interesting perspectives and stories with some different elements and dynamics.
 
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