Why are men expected to take care of their children?

[Koldo]

I think it's an interesting subject to ponder about.

In a world where abortion is fully legal for whatever reason in say, the first 2 months of pregnancy, I indeed do feel like there is an imbalance between man and woman if the choice to abort rests solely on the woman.

If "I can't afford a child" or even just "don't want to pay for a child" is a good enough reason for a woman to get an abortion, then during the same period I feel like it should be a good enough reason for the man to "abort" his fatherhood for the same reason in the same period.
The woman could still choose to not abort, while the man is freed from his responsability (and thereby also any rights of fatherhood - it's as if he became an anonymous sperm donor).

Then there's also the idea of being "tricked" by women.

Let's imagine a woman in her late 20's who desperately wants a child but doesn't want a husband.
She meets a man, has sex with him and lies about being on the pill. She gets pregnant and then demands alimony.
It's a scenario that seems far fetched, but occurs more then you would think.

In fact I remember reading an article about a trend in the UK some time ago where women would even "steal" the sperm from their one night stand from the condom he was wearing.

Now, I don't think it should be 100% free choice all the time, but I certainly can imagine plenty of scenario's where I feel like the system isn't exactly fair.

Like promising they will abort if they get pregnant but later on having a change of mind.

 

[crossfire]

Can you elaborate on why you are bringing this up?

Sure, the following quoted post made the claim that young women were desperate to get pregnant to the point of stealing sperm. The falling birth rate would indicate that they are not very successful at getting pregnant if this practice was widespread.

<...>

Then there's also the idea of being "tricked" by women.

Let's imagine a woman in her late 20's who desperately wants a child but doesn't want a husband.
She meets a man, has sex with him and lies about being on the pill. She gets pregnant and then demands alimony.
It's a scenario that seems far fetched, but occurs more then you would think.

In fact I remember reading an article about a trend in the UK some time ago where women would even "steal" the sperm from their one night stand from the condom he was wearing.

Now, I don't think it should be 100% free choice all the time, but I certainly can imagine plenty of scenario's where I feel like the system isn't exactly fair.

 

[Koldo]

Sure, the following quoted post made the claim that young women were desperate to get pregnant to the point of stealing sperm. The falling birth rate would indicate that they are not very successful at getting pregnant if this practice was widespread.

But he never suggested the practice was widespread.

 

[crossfire]

But he never suggested the practice was widespread.

How big of a problem is it? What percentage of births? Is it a scheme to have children or is it just a scheme to get money? If it is a major problem, one strategy would be for men to bank their sperm and get a vasectomy.

 

[flowerpower]

I think it's an interesting subject to ponder about.

In a world where abortion is fully legal for whatever reason in say, the first 2 months of pregnancy, I indeed do feel like there is an imbalance between man and woman if the choice to abort rests solely on the woman.

If "I can't afford a child" or even just "don't want to pay for a child" is a good enough reason for a woman to get an abortion, then during the same period I feel like it should be a good enough reason for the man to "abort" his fatherhood for the same reason in the same period.
The woman could still choose to not abort, while the man is freed from his responsability (and thereby also any rights of fatherhood - it's as if he became an anonymous sperm donor).

Then there's also the idea of being "tricked" by women.

Let's imagine a woman in her late 20's who desperately wants a child but doesn't want a husband.
She meets a man, has sex with him and lies about being on the pill. She gets pregnant and then demands alimony.
It's a scenario that seems far fetched, but occurs more then you would think.

In fact I remember reading an article about a trend in the UK some time ago where women would even "steal" the sperm from their one night stand from the condom he was wearing.

Now, I don't think it should be 100% free choice all the time, but I certainly can imagine plenty of scenario's where I feel like the system isn't exactly fair.

The horrible "tricking" scenarios you're describing really do happen a lot more often than people think.

I've seen and known women who have actually pulled those hideously unconscionable moves - I'll just say I know more than one woman who have even admitted it.

There are many interesting sociological things about these occurrences: (1) like you said, it's downplayed by society to the point where some people deny or would like to think that it never happens; (2) a lot of the women who do these things seriously regret doing it; (3) the motivations for doing so often aren't actually about the pathological desire to get pregnant and have a baby - it can often involve the desire to "trap" a desired man into their lives who would otherwise not want to have anything to do with them; (4) the women who do these things, even when found out, are actually treated with a remarkable amount of compassion and sympathy by the people around them - almost to the point where they were so mentally unwell that people look at them like they are poor helpless victims when what they've thought, felt and proceeded to do is actually extremely pathological and hurts a lot of innocent people.

I guess I've seen some **** from the inside out. I know and have known a lot of very mentally sick people. Let this be a lesson to a lot of naïve men out there - the world is a very dangerous place even in 1st World Countries and there are A LOT of snakes in the grass who appear harmless on the outside.

How big of a problem is it? What percentage of births? Is it a scheme to have children or is it just a scheme to get money? If it is a major problem, one strategy would be for men to bank their sperm and get a vasectomy.

It's impossible to tell.

And the motivations are a lot more and complex than what has been expressed - and they often overlap.

Mentally ill women are usually the culprits of this stuff. The motives aren't always as cut and dry as the questions you asked imply that they are.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If the birth rate keeps trending downward, all these hypothetical young women who desperately want a child are not very successful in getting pregnant.

My understanding is that the drop in the birth rate is due to women consciously choosing to forgo motherhood, not "young women who desperately want a child [who] are not very successful in getting pregnant."

 

[crossfire]

But he never suggested the practice was widespread.

Is it significant enough to bring up in this thread?

 

[Koldo]

Is it significant enough to bring up in this thread?

Why not? It is always useful to bring up when the system is not fair, even if they are rare occurences.

 

[crossfire]

Why not? It is always useful to bring up when the system is not fair, even if they are rare occurences.

Fair enough.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If the birth rate keeps trending downward, all these hypothetical young women who desperately want a child are not very successful in getting pregnant.

Again, what does that have to do with the point being made?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sure, the following quoted post made the claim that young women were desperate to get pregnant to the point of stealing sperm. The falling birth rate would indicate that they are not very successful at getting pregnant if this practice was widespread.

Sounds like you are doing your very best to avoid the actual point I was making.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

How big of a problem is it? What percentage of births? Is it a scheme to have children or is it just a scheme to get money? If it is a major problem, one strategy would be for men to bank their sperm and get a vasectomy.

It doesn't matter to the point made how many times it happens.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Is it significant enough to bring up in this thread?

The subject of the thread is if there is an imbalance between men and women in terms of alimony and responsibility.
So, yes.

Women can trick men into having to pay childsupport.
The reverse can not happen.

 

[crossfire]

Sounds like you are doing your very best to avoid the actual point I was making.

I was asking questions as to how widespread it might be, and how it may or may not affect the birth rate. (I'm the pragmatic sort.)

I was also serious about men banking their sperm and getting vasectomies if this practice is widespread and the men are concerned about a woman stealing their sperm to force them into child support. A vasectomy is more effective at birth control than anything women can get except a full hysterectomy. If they bank their sperm beforehand, they have much greater control over when and who gets pregnant with that sperm.