Why are Muslims killing each other?

[Looncall]

Ok, give us an example for Iraq, then please explain Islam role in "muslims killing each other" before invasion.

I am avoiding talking about politics since we are debating in religious forum.

I understand (please correct me if I am in error) that Saddam and his government were sunni muslims and were attacking every other kind of muslim present.

 

[kai]

My objection is about "Muslims" killing each other.

is it sensible to you when someone is talking about world war 1 or 2 and saying "why christians killing each others?! :slap:"


let me explain:


there was a dispute between Iran and Iraq about the boundaries between thier countries, this was the main motive reason for the war.Iraqi regime (secular) decide to launch war against Iran to defend his boundaries. Saddam send orders to his army(group of Kurds,sunnis,shia'as,christians,...etc) to fight Iranies.

Now as a religuos forum , far a way from politics , tell me, what Islam had to do with this ?

http://www.religiousforums.com/wiki/File:Sykes-Picot-1916.gif

I have no idea! the statement was Muslims killing each other, you said give me an example from before the invasion and i did.
If your saying that Muslims were killing each other for political reasons thats fair enough, but it doesn't alter the fact that Muslims were killing each other before the invasion does it.

 

[atanu]

Every religion's core messages are alike:

Koran

"2.44":What! do you enjoin men to be good and neglect your own souls while you read the Book; have you then no sense?

2.85. Yet ye it is who slay each other and drive out a party of your people from their homes, supporting one another against them by sin and transgression, and if they came to you as captives ye would ransom them, whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you. Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do

213. Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that mankind might judge concerning that wherein they differed. And unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed only through hatred one of another. And Allah by His will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.

"31.28":Neither your creation nor your raising is anything but as a single soul; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.


---------
Answer to the question in OP is there is scripture, including the following.

"2.44":What! do you enjoin men to be good and neglect your own souls while you read the Book; have you then no sense?

Spurt of hatred for the perceived 'other', despite scripture saying that the origin of all and raising of all is as one soul only, leading to war and killing spree, is like a virus, and has infected many regions at different times. IMO, it is ignorance to pin point a temporal situation and not see the full picture. Has the world ever been without strife? The world is full of strife because it is its nature to hide the single soul-single love (pun intended).

Om

 

[Revoltingest]

Tis in the nature of people to kill each other.
Why should Muslims be any different?
We've even had one or two atheists who murder....shocking, but true.

 

[kai]

Tis in the nature of people to kill each other.
Why should Muslims be any different?
We've even had one or two atheists who murder....shocking, but true.

Exactly they are no different Muslims have waged war and created empires the same as everybody else.

 

[Wombat]

There is a Mosque (I cannot recall if it stands in Iran or Iraq)...It has the third largest dome in the world. The Washington Monument beats it, but that was using steel girders, the basilica in Rome is also bigger.
About twenty years ago a young Irish/Australian Architecture graduate flew in to see the abandoned Mosque. Hot dusty and isolated he hated the place but could not fly out until the next morning...He saw the sun set over the Mosque, he saw the sun rise over the Mosque...He fell in love with it and stayed (17+years) to restore it. Enlisting local villagers they spent some three years matching the Azure blue glaze for replacement tiles on the exterior of the dome. It took seven years to get scaffolding up to the interior rim of the dome.
From the ground they could see cubes of marble spaced around the lip of the interior rim, each one intricately carved and bearing the inscription- ‘Allahu Akbar",’ God is Great. The local stonemasons estimated that this ornate carving represented the labour of some 40-50 masons over 50-60 years.
When they got the scaffolding up to the rim of the dome they were astounded to find that not only the (barely visible) sides of cubes had also been ornately carved but also the (completely obscured) tops and backs of the cubes. The work was now calculated to be ‘generational’.
“Why carve the top, back and sides that no one (bar God) would see”? asked the young Architect.
“Because they could” came the reply from the locals “Prior to Islam the entire region was engaged in incessant raids and warfare...subsequent to Islam they were at peace with everyone in every direction-for hundreds of years...They had the time and the ‘peace dividend’ trade resources to dedicate generations to beautiful buildings and carving ‘God is Great’ therein....”.
Anyone care to point me towards the great secular thing of beauty to which we devote the resources of ....? a couple of FA18 fighters? an Aircraft Carrier?....and provide skilled, meaningful generational employment to our youth?

 

[Revoltingest]

There is a Mosque (I cannot recall if it stands in Iran or Iraq)...It has the third largest dome in the world. The Washington Monument beats it, but that was using steel girders, the basilica in Rome is also bigger.
About twenty years ago a young Irish/Australian Architecture graduate flew in to see the abandoned Mosque. Hot dusty and isolated he hated the place but could not fly out until the next morning...He saw the sun set over the Mosque, he saw the sun rise over the Mosque...He fell in love with it and stayed (17+years) to restore it. Enlisting local villagers they spent some three years matching the Azure blue glaze for replacement tiles on the exterior of the dome. It took seven years to get scaffolding up to the interior rim of the dome.
From the ground they could see cubes of marble spaced around the lip of the interior rim, each one intricately carved and bearing the inscription- ‘Allahu Akbar",’ God is Great. The local stonemasons estimated that this ornate carving represented the labour of some 40-50 masons over 50-60 years.
When they got the scaffolding up to the rim of the dome they were astounded to find that not only the (barely visible) sides of cubes had also been ornately carved but also the (completely obscured) tops and backs of the cubes. The work was now calculated to be ‘generational’.
“Why carve the top, back and sides that no one (bar God) would see”? asked the young Architect.
“Because they could” came the reply from the locals “Prior to Islam the entire region was engaged in incessant raids and warfare...subsequent to Islam they were at peace with everyone in every direction-for hundreds of years...They had the time and the ‘peace dividend’ trade resources to dedicate generations to beautiful buildings and carving ‘God is Great’ therein....”.
Anyone care to point me towards the great secular thing of beauty to which we devote the resources of ....? a couple of FA18 fighters? an Aircraft Carrier?....and provide skilled, meaningful generational employment to our youth?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I worked on designing the F-18 & find it a most fetching plane.

 

[Looncall]

There is a Mosque (I cannot recall if it stands in Iran or Iraq)...It has the third largest dome in the world. The Washington Monument beats it, but that was using steel girders, the basilica in Rome is also bigger.
About twenty years ago a young Irish/Australian Architecture graduate flew in to see the abandoned Mosque. Hot dusty and isolated he hated the place but could not fly out until the next morning...He saw the sun set over the Mosque, he saw the sun rise over the Mosque...He fell in love with it and stayed (17+years) to restore it. Enlisting local villagers they spent some three years matching the Azure blue glaze for replacement tiles on the exterior of the dome. It took seven years to get scaffolding up to the interior rim of the dome.
From the ground they could see cubes of marble spaced around the lip of the interior rim, each one intricately carved and bearing the inscription- ‘Allahu Akbar",’ God is Great. The local stonemasons estimated that this ornate carving represented the labour of some 40-50 masons over 50-60 years.
When they got the scaffolding up to the rim of the dome they were astounded to find that not only the (barely visible) sides of cubes had also been ornately carved but also the (completely obscured) tops and backs of the cubes. The work was now calculated to be ‘generational’.
“Why carve the top, back and sides that no one (bar God) would see”? asked the young Architect.
“Because they could” came the reply from the locals “Prior to Islam the entire region was engaged in incessant raids and warfare...subsequent to Islam they were at peace with everyone in every direction-for hundreds of years...They had the time and the ‘peace dividend’ trade resources to dedicate generations to beautiful buildings and carving ‘God is Great’ therein....”.
Anyone care to point me towards the great secular thing of beauty to which we devote the resources of ....? a couple of FA18 fighters? an Aircraft Carrier?....and provide skilled, meaningful generational employment to our youth?

Well, I consider the CN Tower in Toronto to be beautiful, and it serves a useful purpose too. It was built efficiently and did not take years and years to build something that serves no practical purpose.

Modern science has its beauty too and provides meaningful employment to our youth. As a bonus, it provides practical benefits such as technology and medicine.

 

[Starsoul]

Exactly they are no different Muslims have waged war and created empires the same as everybody else.

Not true, inviting the empires towards the message of peace by muslims is no way equal to waging a war for political domination by the non-muslim war perpetrators.

Muslims fought wars with empires who were cruel to their people, and overtaxed them, after they were given a chance to understand the message of peace. The intent always being liberation from the cruel system, if that was not so, the inhabitants/ common people of those empires wouldn't have accepted the message of Islam so wholeheartedly.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not true, inviting the empires towards the message of peace by muslims is no way equal to waging a war for political domination by the non-muslim war perpetrators.
Muslims fought wars with empires who were cruel to their people, and overtaxed them, after they were given a chance to understand the message of peace. The intent always being liberation from the cruel system, if that was not so, the inhabitants/ common people of those empires wouldn't have accepted the message of Islam so wholeheartedly.

Yeah, no Muslim country ever attacked another Muslim country.
Would you like to buy some oceanfront property in Revoltistan?

 

[arimoff]

Not true, inviting the empires towards the message of peace by muslims is no way equal to waging a war for political domination by the non-muslim war perpetrators.

Muslims fought wars with empires who were cruel to their people, and overtaxed them, after they were given a chance to understand the message of peace. The intent always being liberation from the cruel system, if that was not so, the inhabitants/ common people of those empires wouldn't have accepted the message of Islam so wholeheartedly.

Full of BS, Muslims fought to conquer and the massage is not of peace but hate. Behead or convert.

 

[Looncall]

Not true, inviting the empires towards the message of peace by muslims is no way equal to waging a war for political domination by the non-muslim war perpetrators.

Muslims fought wars with empires who were cruel to their people, and overtaxed them, after they were given a chance to understand the message of peace. The intent always being liberation from the cruel system, if that was not so, the inhabitants/ common people of those empires wouldn't have accepted the message of Islam so wholeheartedly.

Which empires were those? The only one conquered by muslims that comes to mind is the Byzantine Empire.

So, why were the muslim regimes kicked out at the first opportunity? (Spain, parts of the Balkans)

It is ridiculously absurd to portray muslim regimes as not being cruel.

 

[Starsoul]

Full of BS, Muslims fought to conquer and the massage is not of peace but hate. Behead or convert.

Huh? when where? Muslims have been called upon by christians and jews to help THEM fight THEIR wars, guess you did not know, check your history books.

AN Islamic empire extended from the Atlantic Ocean in the west to Central Asia in the east. The subsequent empires of the Umayyads, Abbasids, the Fatimids, the Mughals, the Safavids, and Ottomans were among the largest and most powerful in the world. The Islamic civilization gave rise to many centers of culture and science and produced notable scientists, astronomers, mathematicians, doctors, nurses and philosophers during the Golden Age of Islam. Technology flourished; there was much investment in economic infrastructure, such as irrigation systems and canals; and especially, the importance of reading the Qur'an produced a comparatively high level of literacy in the general populace

And Christians in Persia and Jews and Monophysites in Syria were dissatisfied and sometimes even welcomed the Muslim forces, largely because of religious conflict in both empires.[2] In the case of Byzantine Egypt, Palestine and Syria, these lands had only a few years before been reacquired from the Persians, and had not been ruled by the Byzantines for over 25 years.

 

[Starsoul]

Which empires were those? The only one conquered by muslims that comes to mind is the Byzantine Empire.

You can see the link,

Islamic empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Islamic conquests or Arab conquests,[1] of non-Arab peoples began after the death of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. He established a new unified polity in the Arabian Peninsula which under the subsequent Rashidun (The Rightly Guided Caliphs) and Umayyad Caliphates saw a century of rapid expansion of Muslim power. They grew well beyond the Arabian Peninsula in the form of a Muslim Empire with an area of influence that stretched from the borders of China and India (Present day Pakistan), across Central Asia, the Middle East, North Africa, Sicily, and the Iberian Peninsula, to the Pyrenees. Edward Gibbon writes in The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire:

"Under the last of the Ommiades, the Arabian empire extended two hundred days’ journey from east to west, from the confines of Tartary Atlantic Ocean. and India to the shores of the And if we retrench the sleeve of the robe, as it is styled by their writers, the long and narrow province of march of a caravan. We should vainly seek the indissoluble union and easy obedience that pervaded the government of Augustus and the Antonines; but the progress of Islam diffused over this ample space a general resemblance of manners and opinions.

So, why were the muslim regimes kicked out at the first opportunity? (Spain, parts of the Balkans)

All glories hath a fall, Rule of the world. If someone is powerful today, tommorow he might not be, the weak may gain over the powerful.

It is ridiculously absurd to portray muslim regimes as not being cruel.

If Islam really did spread by force, it would've stopped spreading in the westren countries atleast, i doubt anyone hold a sword to their faces . Althoug No ideology or dogma can ever spread by force, it is just impossible.

[SIZE=-1]Islam is the third-largest and fastest growing religious community in the United States. This is not just because of immigration. More than 50% of America's six million Muslims were born here. Statistics like these imply some basic agreement between core American values and the beliefs that Muslims hold. Americans who make the effort to look beyond popular stereotypes to learn the truth of Islam are surprised to find themselves on familiar ground. [/SIZE]

Islam in America


The Rise of Islam - Harun Yahya

 

[Revoltingest]

....No ideology or dogma can ever spread by force, it is just impossible.

That doesn't stop them from trying. Religions regularly employ violence to expand influence & control the faithful.
What do you think would happen to a Muslim in Saudi Arabia who publicly announces his conversion to atheism, Xtianity or Judaism?

 

[Autodidact]

There is a Mosque (I cannot recall if it stands in Iran or Iraq)...It has the third largest dome in the world. The Washington Monument beats it, but that was using steel girders, the basilica in Rome is also bigger.
About twenty years ago a young Irish/Australian Architecture graduate flew in to see the abandoned Mosque. Hot dusty and isolated he hated the place but could not fly out until the next morning...He saw the sun set over the Mosque, he saw the sun rise over the Mosque...He fell in love with it and stayed (17+years) to restore it. Enlisting local villagers they spent some three years matching the Azure blue glaze for replacement tiles on the exterior of the dome. It took seven years to get scaffolding up to the interior rim of the dome.
From the ground they could see cubes of marble spaced around the lip of the interior rim, each one intricately carved and bearing the inscription- ‘Allahu Akbar",’ God is Great. The local stonemasons estimated that this ornate carving represented the labour of some 40-50 masons over 50-60 years.
When they got the scaffolding up to the rim of the dome they were astounded to find that not only the (barely visible) sides of cubes had also been ornately carved but also the (completely obscured) tops and backs of the cubes. The work was now calculated to be ‘generational’.
“Why carve the top, back and sides that no one (bar God) would see”? asked the young Architect.
“Because they could” came the reply from the locals “Prior to Islam the entire region was engaged in incessant raids and warfare...subsequent to Islam they were at peace with everyone in every direction-for hundreds of years...They had the time and the ‘peace dividend’ trade resources to dedicate generations to beautiful buildings and carving ‘God is Great’ therein....”.
Anyone care to point me towards the great secular thing of beauty to which we devote the resources of ....? a couple of FA18 fighters? an Aircraft Carrier?....and provide skilled, meaningful generational employment to our youth?

 

[Autodidact]

Not true, inviting the empires towards the message of peace by muslims is no way equal to waging a war for political domination by the non-muslim war perpetrators.

Muslims fought wars with empires who were cruel to their people, and overtaxed them, after they were given a chance to understand the message of peace. The intent always being liberation from the cruel system, if that was not so, the inhabitants/ common people of those empires wouldn't have accepted the message of Islam so wholeheartedly.

Where do you learn this baloney?
Right. When the Muslim empire rolled across huge chunks of the mid-east, asia and Europe, conquering everything in its path, the intent was to liberate the native people's from the cruel system, never mind that they fought to the death to preserve it. But when the native people fight back against the Muslim conquerors, it's aggressive warfare?
Conquest is conquest, starsoul, whether Muslim, Catholic or Soviet. They all justify it by saying they're bringing peace and righteousness, and they're all out for conquest and land.
What a double-standard.

Did you know that when Spain conquered huge chunks of the America's, it was to bring the blessings of God's love to the natives? Of course, most of the natives had to be slaughtered to bring it to them, but you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

 

[Autodidact]

Huh? when where? Muslims have been called upon by christians and jews to help THEM fight THEIR wars, guess you did not know, check your history books.

And Christians in Persia and Jews and Monophysites in Syria were dissatisfied and sometimes even welcomed the Muslim forces, largely because of religious conflict in both empires.[2] In the case of Byzantine Egypt, Palestine and Syria, these lands had only a few years before been reacquired from the Persians, and had not been ruled by the Byzantines for over 25 years.

Check yours. Arab Muslims conquered thousands of miles in the usual way--with hordes of invading armies. Here's a typical chapter:

The conquest of the Iberian Peninsula and Septimania commenced when the Moors (mostly Black Africans, Berbers and some Arabs) invaded Visigothic Christian Iberia (modern Spain, Portugal, Gibraltar, Andorra, Septimania) in the year 711.[4] Under their Moorish leader, Tariq ibn Ziyad, they landed at Gibraltar on April 30 and worked their way northward.[5] Tariq's forces were joined the next year by those of his superior, Musa bin Nusair. During the eight-year campaign most of the Iberian Peninsula was brought under Islamic rule—save for small areas in the northwest (Asturias) and largely Basque regions in the Pyrenees.
This territory, under the Arab name Al-Andalus, became first an Emirate and then an independent Umayyad Caliphate, the Caliphate of Córdoba, after the overthrowing of the dynasty in Damascus by the Abbasids.

See the key words there: conquest, invaded, overthrowing. Please explain how this is any different from any other conquest, such as say the Romans or Huns.

Here's another:

The Aghlabids rulers of Ifriqiya under the Abbasids, using present-day Tunisia as their launching pad conquered Palermo in 831, Messina in 842, Enna in 859, Syracuse in 878, Catania in 900 and the final Byzantine stronghold, the fortress of Taormina, in 902 setting up emirates in the Italian Peninsula. In 846 the Aghlabids sacked Rome.

See the key words: conquered, sacked. Just regular old warfare and conquest, no different from any other Imperial power.

or this:

[FONT=verdana, geneva, helvetica]Out of the Samanid Dynasty came the first great Islamic empire in Afghanistan, the Ghaznavid, whose warriors, raiding deep into the Indian subcontinent, assured the domination of Sunni Islam in what is now Afghanistan, Pakistan, and parts of India. The most renowned of the dynasty's rulers was Mahmud, who consolidated control over the areas south of the Amu Darya then carried out devastating raids into India - looting Hindu temples and seeking converts to Islam. [/FONT]

from here

Does that sound like someone asked them to please enter and bring them Islam? Or like they raided, conquered and imposed rule?

To tell the truth, you sound like George Bush explaining how the Iraqi people welcomed the American liberators with flowers. What baloney.

 

[Autodidact]

Anyone care to point me towards the great secular thing of beauty to which we devote the resources of ....? a couple of FA18 fighters? an Aircraft Carrier?....and provide skilled, meaningful generational employment to our youth?

 

[Looncall]

The Rise of Islam - Harun Yahya

I see. That would be Harun Yahya the notorious liar, of fishing lure fame?