Why are Muslims killing each other?

[.lava]

autodidact also gave you an example, where a terrorist, most likely the Taliban, bombing and killing 80 people in the mosque, quite recently. I hardly think the suicide bomber was an American or anyone from the West, .lava.

And there is also no justification that you think it the non-Muslim invaders, considering that the US and allies didn't invade Pakistan.

The Talibans are the most likely the people behind, considering that the Pakistani army had earlier decide to get rid of the Talibans, and attack them.

I don't know where you are getting your information, but do you really believe that the US are involve in the mosque bombings in Pakistan? Or perhaps you think it is the Israeli?

Muslims always like to point their fingers at Americans, Israeli or Jews, and you seem to be no different. You have Muslims killing each other, but instead of looking at the real enemy, you blame others, when you don't realise you have enemies in your midst.

Even should the Americans pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq, do you think the bombing will cease, and the Sunni and Shiite will become brothers again?

Don't get me wrong, .lava. I have always been AGAINST the US-led invasion into Iraq. Ask YmirGF, and he can show you the threads from another forum (called Free2Code), where I was totally against the war in Iraq, against Bush and even against my own (former) Prime Minister (of Australia, John Howard) who jumped into war that every Australians were against. I was against Bush's speech of Axis of Evil, against Bush siding with Israel against the Palestinians, instead of mediating between the 2 sides.

Just because I was against the invasion, doesn't me that I don't see the political reality that Muslims are killing other Muslims, in Iraq, in Afghanistan and in Pakistan.

hello i would like to respond somethings you say above but excuse me. i am having my exam week. but i have one question. do you sincerely believe media in this world is trustworthy? please note that i think it is not and i am not saying this only for Western media. our media is perfectly corrupted too. IMO they lost their purpose and become buyable political tools to manipulate masses

.

 

[Kathryn]

Some Christians hate the wrong kind of Christian.
Indeed there are 'Protestant' atheists who would kill 'Catholic' atheists and vice-versa in this part of the world.

The difference is this - they're not strapping bombs onto themselves and wandering into crowded marketplaces. At least not in the droves that Muslims are.

 

[Revoltingest]

The difference is this - they're not strapping bombs onto themselves and wandering into crowded marketplaces. At least not in the droves that Muslims are.

If we look at a longer time frame, is that still true? Consider the Irish bombings & Timothy McVeigh's antics.
I wonder if anyone has done a quantitative survey of religious violence. Personally, I've never been physically
threatened by any Muslims, but I have by Xtians (over abortion).

 

[Kathryn]

If we look at a longer time frame, is that still true? Consider the Irish bombings & Timothy McVeigh's antics.
I wonder if anyone has done a quantitative survey of religious violence. Personally, I've never been physically
threatened by any Muslims, but I have by Xtians (over abortion).

I'm all for putting things in context. But the truth of the matter is that suicide bombers and terrorist attacks are so common in Muslim-dominated countries that it's newsworthy -and alarming.

I think the OP is talking about what's happening in the HERE AND NOW - not trying to keep a running tally of who killed who over the course of history. What we have to deal with TODAY is a surge in terrorist attacks worldwide, most of which unfortunately are Muslims killing other Muslims.

In order to solve a problem, we have to address the WHYS of the problem.

Of course, you can take the position that since you've never felt threatened by Muslims, it's none of your business, and you could make a pretty good case for that - but that doesn't solve the problem of terrorism and innocent people's body parts littering marketplaces across the middle east.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm all for putting things in context. But the truth of the matter is that suicide bombers and terrorist attacks are so common in Muslim-dominated countries that it's newsworthy -and alarming.

I think the OP is talking about what's happening in the HERE AND NOW - not trying to keep a running tally of who killed who over the course of history. What we have to deal with TODAY is a surge in terrorist attacks worldwide, most of which unfortunately are Muslims killing other Muslims.

In order to solve a problem, we have to address the WHYS of the problem.

Of course, you can take the position that since you've never felt threatened by Muslims, it's none of your business, and you could make a pretty good case for that - but that doesn't solve the problem of terrorism and innocent people's body parts littering marketplaces across the middle east.

True all dat.

 

[Looncall]

I haven't researched it, but my impression from listening to the news is that Muslim terrorists kill more Muslims than non-Muslims. What's up with that? What are Muslims killing each other over?

One needs to remember that these are cultures and a religion where so-called purity is an important value. If you value purity, you cannot tolerate anyone who does not share your religious views. To do so would make you impure. To avoid that, you kill those who disagree with you.

There is nothing as effective as ideas of purity and honour for promoting mayhem.

 

[Revoltingest]

One needs to remember that these are cultures and a religion where so-called purity is an important value. If you value purity, you cannot tolerate anyone who does not share your religious views. To do so would make you impure. To avoid that, you kill those who disagree with you.

There is nothing as effective as ideas of purity and honour for promoting mayhem.

The worst offense isn't to be really different, but rather to be almost the same.

 

[chinu]

>>>Why are Muslims killing each other?<<<

Why are you seeing Muslims killing each other ?

 

[sandandfoam]

The difference is this - they're not strapping bombs onto themselves and wandering into crowded marketplaces. At least not in the droves that Muslims are.

My point is this - Muslims are no different to anyone else or any other group.
Martyrdom isn't unique to Muslim culture - remember the Hunger Strikes in this country - I haven't heard of any Muslims starving themselves to death. Maybe we're even nuttier in 'Christian' lands?
Markets - remember Omagh? That wasn't long ago.
In this country the 'dissident Republicans' are trying for a 'spectacular' at the moment and the only reason they haven't had one is good intelligence work by British and Irish security forces.

I don't accept there is an inherent "difference" between me and any Muslim. Between 'Western' and 'Muslim' or 'Christian' and 'Muslim'

Saying that Muslims are strapping on bombs and wandering into crowded market places "in droves" is frankly bonkers.

Of course I think the powers that be in 'the West' want it thought that Muslims are crazies who don't value life and love their families and neighbours in exactly the same fashion as people in Chicago, London or Paris. It makes it easier for the public in our countries to stomach it when various 'Western' armies drop tons and tons of high explosives and empty countless rounds of ammunition on them.
Sure they're not like us at all.

 

[Revoltingest]

My point is this - Muslims are no different to anyone else or any other group.

They're no different, in the sense that people everywhere are basically the same, but they do have a different religion, & it some
are concentrated in countries with vastly different cultures. So there are observable differences, particularly in the extremists.

In this country the 'dissident Republicans' are trying for a 'spectacular' at the moment and the only reason they haven't had one is good intelligence work by British and Irish security forces.

What does this cryptic language mean?

I don't accept there is an inherent "difference" between me and any Muslim. Between 'Western' and 'Muslim' or 'Christian' and 'Muslim'

While no inherent differences, there are differences.

Saying that Muslims are strapping on bombs and wandering into crowded market places "in droves" is frankly bonkers.

It depends upon what you mean by "droves". They certainly are doing it often enuf for the media to give it that appearance.
And by the efforts of their extreme elements, they're outdoing other religions at the moment.

 

[sandandfoam]

What does this cryptic language mean?

It means that the only reason that Irish 'Republican' scumbags in the Real IRA aren't killing in droves is because security forces are preventing them.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Of course I think the powers that be in 'the West' want it thought that Muslims are crazies who don't value life and love their families and neighbours in exactly the same fashion as people in Chicago, London or Paris. It makes it easier for the public in our countries to stomach it when various 'Western' armies drop tons and tons of high explosives and empty countless rounds of ammunition on them.
Sure they're not like us at all.

I think you make a valid point, but on the other hand, remember that the invasion of Afghanistan and then Iraq occurred *after* 9/11. So can you specify the theaters where the West was dropping "tons of high explosives" on Muslims, prior to Afghanistan and Iraq, which motivated the first WTC bombing, the Kenya and Lebanon and Saudi bombings, the attack on the U.S.S. Cole, Sept. 11, the DC sniper shootings ... ?

Bin Laden himself, as I recall, said the attacks were motivated primarily by the presence of the U.S. in Saudi Arabia--not the dropping of any bombs, but simply a military presence in an allied country, on what he considers "holy land" (all of Saudi Arabia, not just Medina and Mecca).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a supporter of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, or the Israeli occupation. It just seems to me that Al Qaeda has political/religious aims and is happy to use violence to achieve their aims, any Western violence against "Muslims" is just a tool they use to recruit people to their cause (it seems to me).

 

[sandandfoam]

So can you specify the theaters where the West was dropping "tons of high explosives" on Muslims, prior to Afghanistan and Iraq

Hi Spinkles,

I don't think I need to need to because I'm not claiming this as a reason for the invasions.

My claim is that huge numbers of civilians have died since the occupations. Dehumanization of Muslim populations makes the occupations more acceptable.

To my mind the argument is distinct from the invasions. We can mix the 2 if you want but the waters will fast become very muddy I fear.

 

[islam means peace]

I haven't researched it, but my impression from listening to the news is that Muslim terrorists kill more Muslims than non-Muslims. What's up with that? What are Muslims killing each other over?

Yes , i totally agree with you that some muslim (they claimed to be muslim , Allah knows better whetehr they are or not) groups calimed to be fighting for making peace kill more muslims even some of them only kills musliim and never fight with those people who are making mischeaf in land and they even donot forgive childrens, old poepl and womens, I think there are three main reason came into my mind

Politics , they want to rule on people
Money
Playing in the hand of such groups who donot want peace.

And remeber Allah never allows to kill innocent human person whether muslim or not muslim and order us to deal just and kind will all people.

Quran says in Surah 60 , Verses

8. Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly andjustly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

9. Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) indriving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). Itis such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

killling innocent being (irrespective of muslim or non muslim) is one of the biggest sin in Islam. killing one innocent is just like you killed whole of humanity.

Quran says in Surah 5 verse 32

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreadingmischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and ifany one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the wholepeople. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs,yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in theland.

Hopefully , these verses of the Quran clarifies you to whom we should fight and whom we cannot. and dont pay attention to those people who just quotes thing out of context and some time wrong text and try to say that Islam allow to kill non muslim. Islam does not allow to kill innocent peropler whether muslim or non muslim , and treat them well and good.

 

[.lava]

Yes , i totally agree...

please let me know if you could recall any Muslim bombing a Mosque before USA entered Muslim land. IMO first bomb that killed Muslims performing salaats in mosques was never done by a Muslim. it was the same in Iraq. putting a bomb in Shii region and make it look like Sunnis did it was a very simple trick and Muslims bought it. now there is civil war. please consider this fact that it was not Muslim who started this fire. there've been sections for centuries. it is true there is conflict but there was certain ammount of toleration let alone targeting civilians in mosques UNTIL USA has started war on Islam (btw of course USA is not alone there) obviously some people sold their nation and no, they are not all Muslims, naturally. there are tones of tribes from other religions in Middle East and USA supports either those who has nothing to do with Islam or those who could be bought by money. just because they share the land does not mean they share the belief just like because someone was born into Muslim family means he follows the path that leads to God

.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

please let me know if you could recall any Muslim bombing a Mosque before USA entered Muslim land. IMO first bomb that killed Muslims performing salaats in mosques was never done by a Muslim.

How do you know? After all, you said the media is untrustworthy.

Here's a New York Times article archived by the San Fransisco Chronicle, dated 1995 long before the U.S. invaded Afghanistan or Iraq: 11 Killed in Bomb Attack at Pakistan Mosque / Gunmen shoot at those trying to escape blast - SFGate

(03-11) 04:00 PST Karachi &#8212; 1995-03-11 04:00:00 PST Karachi -- The violence that is tearing Pakistan's largest city apart claimed 11 more lives yesterday when a bomb exploded outside a mosque after prayers and masked gunmen stormed into the smoke-filled courtyard, loosing volleys of automatic rifle fire at the panicked survivors.

The attack, which also wounded at least 22 people, came two days after the slaying of two Americans driving to work at the U.S. Consulate and intensified a feeling among Karachi's population of more than 10 million that the long history of ethnic, religious and criminal violence here, responsible for thousands of deaths in recent years, has taken a sharp turn for the worse.

For all the horror of the bombing, it was just the latest in a series of attacks that have turned Karachi into one of the most dangerous places in the world.

The attack on the mosque in a working-class district of east Karachi was the third in less than two weeks on a gathering of the city's Shiite Muslim minority. It lost 20 people in two attacks on mosques February 25.

This time, the fury of survivors and relatives of the dead was intensified by the fact that several of those killed were small children, boys and girls as young as 5 years old, who gather every Friday outside the mosque to beg for alms.

One survivor of the blast, Mubarak Haidar, said he saw one of the gunmen leveling his AK-47 rifle and firing at a small girl as she fled the turmoil, striking her in the back.

The police appeared to have no leads on the identity of the attackers. At the mosque, weeping relatives blamed the massacre on militant adherents of groups who profess the Sunni form of the Muslim faith, the majority creed among Pakistan's 120 million people.

But the crowds that gathered after the massacre, including survivors and rescuers with their clothes drenched in blood, directed their fury less at the Sunnis than at the government of Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto.

"Why can't the government protect us?" the crowds shouted. "Why don't they let us protect ourselves?"

Bhutto has been accused of spending too much time abroad, seeking foreign investment in her country, and too little time seeking solutions to the explosive situation in Karachi, which is the country's main seaport and its largest financial, commercial and industrial center.

Increasingly, influential Pakistanis are saying that the violence, if left to fester, will ultimately destabilize the country's shaky democracy, inviting either a return to the military rule that has gripped the country for half its 48-year existence or, as many Pakistanis now fear more, a popular swing toward Muslim fundamentalism.

When British India was partitioned in 1947, creating India and Pakistan, a huge migration of Indian Muslims changed Karachi's ethnic and linguistic balance. The new arrivals, mostly Urdu-speaking people, overwhelmed a Karachi population of 400,000 that had been dominated by native-born residents of Sind Province, of which Karachi is capital.

The split grew wider as the well-educated migrants, known as mohajirs, grew restive at what they saw as discrimination by the native Sindis, who used their power to reserve government jobs, admissions to college and other privileges for themselves.

In recent years, Mohajir-Sindi rivalries have been overtaken by a brutal street war between the main mohajir political group, the Mohajir National Movement, and a breakaway faction known as MQM-Haqiqi. Their rivalries are compounded by a vicious struggle between drug barons who have profited by the chaos to turn Karachi into a city with an estimated 1.2 million heroin users.

The violence has soared on the tide of weapons that flowed into Karachi from the war in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

A mosque was bombed in Saudi Arabia in 1995: Bomb Kills 6 at Saudi Arabian Mosque : Mideast: Blast during midday prayers injures more than 100. Authorities reportedly have identified suspect. - Los Angeles Times

Massacre at a mosque carried out by the armed Islamic group of Algeria in 1990: Sidi-Hamed Massacre Reference - Glossary.com

Islamic extremists took hostages and killed people at the Grand Mosque in Saudi Arabia, 1979:
Grand Mosque Seizure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This doesn't disprove your point but it does seem to be a fact that "Muslim" extremists have attacked mosques in the past .... that is, if we can trust the untrustworthy media.

 

[YmirGF]

please let me know if you could recall any Muslim bombing a Mosque before USA entered Muslim land. IMO first bomb that killed Muslims performing salaats in mosques was never done by a Muslim. it was the same in Iraq. putting a bomb in Shii region and make it look like Sunnis did it was a very simple trick and Muslims bought it. now there is civil war. please consider this fact that it was not Muslim who started this fire. there've been sections for centuries. it is true there is conflict but there was certain ammount of toleration let alone targeting civilians in mosques UNTIL USA has started war on Islam (btw of course USA is not alone there) obviously some people sold their nation and no, they are not all Muslims, naturally. there are tones of tribes from other religions in Middle East and USA supports either those who has nothing to do with Islam or those who could be bought by money. just because they share the land does not mean they share the belief just like because someone was born into Muslim family means he follows the path that leads to God

.

You do certainly have an interesting perspective on this, .lava. The thing is, do you have a shred of proof? Anything at all? The enmity between Sunni and Shia, since the death of the prophet, is a part of the historical record - from Muslim accounts.

Are you using the tired old canard that the people who carry out these atrocities are not Muslims because by committing these acts they turn their back on Islam and are therefore no longer really Muslims? Are you suggesting that these atrocities are the handiwork of the CIA (Or Mosad or whoever...) creating "mischief in the lands" of the believers? IF so... where is your proof. I will accept almost ANYTHING that supports your thinking...

In effect, I am really interested in WHY you think what you do.
In advance, you have my solemn promise that I will not attack ANYTHING you may say, though I do reserve the right to ask further questions.

 

[Autodidact]

I guess the same reason why it happenes every where, with all kinds of people, all over the world... we don't know... it seems common factor is "people + ? = killing"...

Rank Countries

Amount

# 1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
# 2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
# 3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
# 4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people
# 5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people
# 6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people
# 7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people
# 8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people
# 9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people
# 10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people
# 11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people
# 12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people
# 13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people
# 14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people
# 15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people
# 16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people
# 17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people
# 18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people
# 19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people
# 20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people
# 21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people
# 22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people
# 23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people
# 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people


Murders (per capita) statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

Well, individuals murder each other the world over, including in Muslim countries. In addition, Muslim terrorists kill scores of other Muslims at a time, in a different, additional phenomenon. That's the one I'm asking about. Since it is a different phenomenon, I think it has different causes.

What I'm saying is, a Muslim or non-Muslim man might shoot another one in a jealous fit, or poison an elderly relative in hopes of inheriting money. That happens all over the world. In addition, there's something else going on in Muslim countries, where healthy young men (and a few women) strap explosives to their bodies, go into crowded environments such as markets or mosques, and blow themselves up, together with dozens of people they've never met. And my question is, what is that about?

I don't think even this is unique to Muslims, other terrorist/political groups do it from time to time, but it's happening a lot, now, all over the world, and right now it's primarily Muslims.

So, any ideas? Or just denial and defensiveness?

 

[Autodidact]

Its a factor when weighing up human behaviour that they will kill each other for gain. Muslim or otherwise.

In these cases, when the murderer usually kills themselves as well, what gain do you think they are seeking?