Why are there deadly storms, accidents and diseases?

[challupa]

I guess my thinking was that is we are above the animals, our lives should somehow be better. Maybe all creatures are in the same boat trying to scrape by getting along with the earth.

I don't think that there is any difference in what all of life experiences on earth. We are animals too so we will experience what they experience. However, we do have the ability to be conscious and to me that means we make choice about how we 'perceive' what happens to us. Suffering is a choice of how we perceive what is happening to us. You will find people in the same situation yet one person is happy and goes about spreading that happiness and the other is believing they are a victim and goes around spreading that mentality. It's a choice how we view life.

 

[challupa]

Thirza:

If you want a world which reflects the value of life that we place on it, then the first place to start looking is in how you interact with the world. All responsibility starts with us.

With that in mind you should probably get accustomed to the idea that you are in some way responsible for everything. Anything that happens you shoulder some responsibility for its happening that way (whether for good or for ill). If you don't like the way something is going, then it is on you to go out there and make sure it is stopped or changed for the better. That is the biggest stumbling block. Most people are content to let things happen unopposed; because opposition would involve effort and conflict with other people.



The second thing you want to consider is what is important enough to you to fight over, then research it a great deal. You mentioned "Global Warming." If this is really a place where you want to do battle, then start looking over energy production methods, energy efficiency, insulation, heating and cooling, industrial processes, industrial waste production... basically anything which could be a contributing factor to anthropogenic change to the climate (me personally I am not convinced that our influence is a large factor in driving climate change, but I am convinced we are being almost criminally negligent in our application of technologies).

For instance: Did you know that we can build nuclear reactors now that have ZERO radioactive waste products? (on a related note check out how many people die each year due to coal and oil related accidents and illnesses) Did you know that we can create houses that are insulated so well that body heat is sufficient to heat the building in winter (and is so effective at keeping out heat in the summer that no AC is needed)? Did you know that we developed urban planning models for cities vastly more energy and water efficient decades ago (look up Buckminster Fuller if you are curious to see something "only" 40 years out of date), but have never been implemented?

Our world is full of innovations and technologies that are not implemented, but could potentially solve a lot of problems. Most people just don't know about these things, and amongst those that do, most don't care enough to want to try to implement them.


If what I have told you has scared you with the immensity of the size of the problem... well, then that means that I have probably given you a close to accurate projection of just how big that problem really is. But, if no one chooses to fight for what is right... if no one chooses to oppose those who would see things remain as they are (where we continue to waste resources unnecessarily), then nothing will change.

Even if you take nothing else away from this conversation; Remember: Change and Responsibility start with you.

MTF

:clap

 

[Koldo]

I don't think that there is any difference in what all of life experiences on earth. We are animals too so we will experience what they experience. However, we do have the ability to be conscious and to me that means we make choice about how we 'perceive' what happens to us. Suffering is a choice of how we perceive what is happening to us. You will find people in the same situation yet one person is happy and goes about spreading that happiness and the other is believing they are a victim and goes around spreading that mentality. It's a choice how we view life.

This may apply to some situations, but not to all of them.

 

[challupa]

This may apply to some situations, but not to all of them.

What do you see as a situation where perception of the event is not a personal choice?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Thirza:

For instance: Did you know that we can build nuclear reactors now that have ZERO radioactive waste products? (on a related note check out how many people die each year due to coal and oil related accidents and illnesses) Did you know that we can create houses that are insulated so well that body heat is sufficient to heat the building in winter (and is so effective at keeping out heat in the summer that no AC is needed)? Did you know that we developed urban planning models for cities vastly more energy and water efficient decades ago (look up Buckminster Fuller if you are curious to see something "only" 40 years out of date), but have never been implemented?


MTF

Wow, that's really scary but interesting. Thanks!

 

[ManTimeForgot]

I find this concept to be reasonable if taken to a certain extent. Given we are not capable of preventing or changing everything as we wish, that we are limited in our abilities, it is useless to put so much responsibility on our shoulders.

I take responsibility to mean that if we are responsible for an ill event then we should have taken the proper measures to prevent it. However, this is not at all possible if we take responsibility for everything.

Plus, I haven't even mentioned things you couldn't possibly have any control over. Such as meteor crashes.

I recently came across a way of putting it more succinctly (and hopefully more comprehensible): You do not take responsibility for the way things are: you take responsibility for when things do not change.

Obviously you don't take responsibility for the existence of meteors; you take responsibility for people choosing to ignore protections against meteors or for people choosing to not render aid when meteor impacts occur. It essentially boils down to this: If you do not care about this, then how do you know anyone is willing to care at all?

MTF

 

[Koldo]

I recently came across a way of putting it more succinctly (and hopefully more comprehensible): You do not take responsibility for the way things are: you take responsibility for when things do not change.

Obviously you don't take responsibility for the existence of meteors; you take responsibility for people choosing to ignore protections against meteors or for people choosing to not render aid when meteor impacts occur. It essentially boils down to this: If you do not care about this, then how do you know anyone is willing to care at all?

MTF

But this gets back to my point: we are limited.
We can not change everything we care about.

 

[Koldo]

What do you see as a situation where perception of the event is not a personal choice?

Have you ever experienced a major physical pain?

 

[challupa]

Have you ever experienced a major physical pain?

Oh yes, I have lived with chronic pain for 13 years. It is pretty intense 24/7 with no down time. That is how I have learned that how I perceive things makes things better or worse. When the injury first happened the pain levels seemed to be unbearable and I didn't think I could live if I had to endure that kind of pain forever. I have since learned that I can live with it and while the pain levels haven't changed, they have become possible to live with. Took me awhile though I admit. But I totally understand how I can make it worse by my attitude towards my situation. That is why I believe it is always a choice how we view what is happening.

 

[Koldo]

Oh yes, I have lived with chronic pain for 13 years. It is pretty intense 24/7 with no down time. That is how I have learned that how I perceive things makes things better or worse. When the injury first happened the pain levels seemed to be unbearable and I didn't think I could live if I had to endure that kind of pain forever. I have since learned that I can live with it and while the pain levels haven't changed, they have become possible to live with. Took me awhile though I admit. But I totally understand how I can make it worse by my attitude towards my situation. That is why I believe it is always a choice how we view what is happening.

I comprehend that, most certainly i do.
However, it doesn't make the suffering go away.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Only given infinite time.

Dear Gjallarhorn,
I thought that was more a precondition for the re-occurrence/-experience of something?

Because, suppose that "all which is possible" is not an infinite amount of X, but rather a limited amount. Could "time"not then - instead of limiting the amount of things which occur - in itself be limited by "all which is possible" actually occurring?

Tell me if I'm being silly not, but were this impossible?

Sincerely,
Hermit

 

[ManTimeForgot]

But this gets back to my point: we are limited.
We can not change everything we care about.

And this gets back to my main point: we are genetically predisposed to be lazy, ineffectual, and give up too early. The fact of the matter is by NOT accepting responsibility for everything that could be changed (as long as you are possessed of the necessary faculties to effect a change; like if you don't know how to fish, then you can't be responsible for not bringing in fish, but you are responsible for not knowing how to fish in the first place), then you are allowing things to stagnate or go wrong.


The bare bones fact of human nature is that 60-70% of us are simply apathetic about moral issues. 15% or so are fundamentally moral and 15% are fundamentally immoral (these people either go out of their way to do what is right or casually disregard morality in general). If we want to make large-scale changes, then the composition of society Has To Change, and the only way to do that is for people to change. People change by starting with yourself.

MTF

 

[challupa]

I comprehend that, most certainly i do.
However, it doesn't make the suffering go away.

I does something different and something I never expected. It transforms it. I really don't feel that I 'suffer'. I do have pain. It's hard to explain and I know I never would have understood it if someone tried to explain it to me before I had to live with chronic pain. But it's true.

 

[Koldo]

And this gets back to my main point: we are genetically predisposed to be lazy, ineffectual, and give up too early. The fact of the matter is by NOT accepting responsibility for everything that could be changed (as long as you are possessed of the necessary faculties to effect a change; like if you don't know how to fish, then you can't be responsible for not bringing in fish, but you are responsible for not knowing how to fish in the first place), then you are allowing things to stagnate or go wrong.


The bare bones fact of human nature is that 60-70% of us are simply apathetic about moral issues. 15% or so are fundamentally moral and 15% are fundamentally immoral (these people either go out of their way to do what is right or casually disregard morality in general). If we want to make large-scale changes, then the composition of society Has To Change, and the only way to do that is for people to change. People change by starting with yourself.

MTF

You are looking at two extremes.
You see completely lazy who attempt to change nothing and then think the best method is to shoulder all responsibility in the world on everyone shoulders. These are two extremes.

I prefer to think that we hold responsibility for nothing changing to better, rather than for everything not changing. Can you see the difference?

 

[Koldo]

I does something different and something I never expected. It transforms it. I really don't feel that I 'suffer'. I do have pain. It's hard to explain and I know I never would have understood it if someone tried to explain it to me before I had to live with chronic pain. But it's true.

You got used to the pain. That's what happened.
You no longer call it suffering, because it used to be worse in a certain way back then.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

You are looking at two extremes.
You see completely lazy who attempt to change nothing and then think the best method is to shoulder all responsibility in the world on everyone shoulders. These are two extremes.

I prefer to think that we hold responsibility for nothing changing to better, rather than for everything not changing. Can you see the difference?

I don't think you quite recognize just how bad the situation is; extremes have always been what is required in order to effect change for the better. I can rattle off the top of head probably a dozen different technologies which would solve our various energy problems; none of them are in the process of getting implemented.

"We" can't take responsibility for nothing becoming better because quite frankly no one is willing to go first. It is simply inconceivable for normal people to want to shoulder the burden of being alone and responsible for trying to effect change, and thus no one does it.


It is only by trying to emulate or become one of those people for whom moral justifications are innate/the method of first recourse that you could start to see real change. I know this is so because sociologists and psychologists have noticed for decades now that most people are hard-wired to conform or accept rather than buck trends or try and change things for what they see as better than the status quo. (Check out the Milgram experiments; its really quite shocking)

MTF

 

[BSM1]

Maybe you are asking the wrong question. Maybe you should ask why there are sunny days, smooth roads, and long lives?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Maybe you are asking the wrong question. Maybe you should ask why there are sunny days, smooth roads, and long lives?

Hmm, you may be on to something.

 

[nazz]

With a belief in a loving God.

Either God can't do much if anything about it or God has a very good reason not to. I can't imagine what the latter might be so I'm betting on the former.

 

[Penumbra]

We live on a thin, fractured and shifting (sometimes violently) layer of crust above a sphere of hot magma, rock, and metal and below cold, dark, airless, radiation-filled empty space for mind-boggling distances, with a very thin atmospheric bubble partially guarding us. Life grew on the crust, forming a predator/prey cycle of nature for hundreds of millions of years and counting with only a recent known emergence of sapient minds on the planet. Other observed planets and moons appear to be devoid of life, so far, and our planet has weathered multiple mass-extinction events.

So I don't think it's realistic to expect things to be optimized for well-being, love, design, and comfort, nor do I think it's fair to place ourselves at the center of things, as though the universe is designed specifically for sapient beings. I think we've got to work with what we have and try to make it better.