Why aren't there more Secular believers?

[endlessvoid2018]

Just curious... Why aren't there more people who are believers in God, in whatever capacity, that are more Secular?
Even when I used to identify as a Christian, I considered myself Secular.

I know there are a lot of people who are "Nones," out there, but I don't think this position automatically qualifies one as believing in Secularism.
Just like there are many atheists out there that are Humanists, but not all atheists are Humanists.

I sort of believe that there are a lot more people out there who are Deist-type with their God beliefs, they just don't know it and have
probably never heard of it.

Any thoughts?

 

[ChristineM]

France is full of them.

A traditionally catholic country with laïcité (secularism) in their heart.

 

[endlessvoid2018]

Interesting. Here in the states, this seems to be quite rare.

I don't know why so many people automatically have to put their god beliefs forcefully into politics, or other things where they don't belong.
I suppose this could be very likely because many people who believe in god, also believe in religion, so they assume their "god," automatically
dictates some kind of intervention into such things due to their religious morality of what is "right and wrong," or "sinful."

 

[ChristineM]

I agree, religion should stay in church. Forcing your religion on others through politics is a bad point of religion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Just curious... Why aren't there more people who are believers in God, in whatever capacity, that are more Secular?
Even when I used to identify as a Christian, I considered myself Secular.

I know there are a lot of people who are "Nones," out there, but I don't think this position automatically qualifies one as believing in Secularism.
Just like there are many atheists out there that are Humanists, but not all atheists are Humanists.

I sort of believe that there are a lot more people out there who are Deist-type with their God beliefs, they just don't know it and have
probably never heard of it.

Any thoughts?

I think a lot of it comes down to power.

For proselytizing religions, the ultimate goal is generally to get all of society to align with the religion, so in the long run, proselytizing works against the religion's aims.

OTOH, these proselytizing religions also don't want society aligned with some other religion, so in the short term, if that religion is in a position of weakness, then it can make sense to support secularism as a temporary, tactical measure.

Thinking to my own country's history, while we've never been entirely secular, a lot of our "easing up on religiosity" came from and era when the Catholics and Protestants both realized they weren't in a position to win over the other and both wanted to reduce their opponent's influence on government.

I think what's going on today is that a lot of believers are really taking their "God is with us" messages to heart, so they think they're in a position of strength. Also, in some countries, those proselytizing religions really are dominant, so there's no need for them to adopt a secularist position.

 

[endlessvoid2018]

Interesting. What country are you from, if I may ask?
Ironically, this type of behavior it seems from what I have viewed, always comes from Christians generally. This may not be entirely accurate, but I don't think I've ever heard of (or experienced) anyone here in the US that is a believer in another faith such as Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc, that conducts themselves in such a manner.

I'm sure they might be out there, I've just never seen it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Interesting. Here in the states, this seems to be quite rare.

I don't know why so many people automatically have to put their god beliefs forcefully into politics, or other things where they don't belong.
I suppose this could be very likely because many people who believe in god, also believe in religion, so they assume their "god," automatically
dictates some kind of intervention into such things due to their religious morality of what is "right and wrong," or "sinful."

I know why: their religion teaches that (their specific version of) "God's Kingdom" will rule the Earth. They want to bring it about.

... but I do think it's interesting how it's paradoxical: on the one hand, it's an expression of strength ("shaping society how we think God wants shows how powerful we are!") but at the same time, it's an expression of weakness ("we have to shape society how God wants, since apparently our God is too powerless to do it on his own").

 

[RestlessSoul]

Interesting. What country are you from, if I may ask?
Ironically, this type of behavior it seems from what I have viewed, always comes from Christians generally. This may not be entirely accurate, but I don't think I've ever heard of (or experienced) anyone here in the US that is a believer in another faith such as Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc, that conducts themselves in such a manner.

I'm sure they might be out there, I've just never seen it.

As with so many societal trends, your country is an outlier. In most majority Christian countries, the influence of the various churches on political life has been declining for centuries. The USA and Russia are the two exceptions I can think of. No idea really, why that is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Interesting. What country are you from, if I may ask?

Me? Canada.

Ironically, this type of behavior it seems from what I have viewed, always comes from Christians generally. This may not be entirely accurate, but I don't think I've ever heard of (or experienced) anyone here in the US that is a believer in another faith such as Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc, that conducts themselves in such a manner.

I'm sure they might be out there, I've just never seen it.

That's because you're in the US. All of the other religions you listed are relatively small and powerless where you are.

Look at the countries where those religions are dominant. Even Buddhism - which has a reputation in the west as a peaceful, easy-going religion - is pretty oppressive once it gets its hands on the reins of power in a society.

 

[Pawpatrol]

Because secularism is in opposition to Islamic, Judaic and Christian beliefs and scriptures. Those who claim to be secular are mere hypocrites who accept a fraction of their religion — which isn't even acceptance. They're fake.

 

[LuisDantas]

Here in Brazil there is a widespread situation of not exactly belief as such, but an expectation of reverence for god-belief. It is difficult not to appear rude if one is openly uninterested in that belief.

Mainly, I have come to conclude, because Christianity here is aggressively proselitistic and a big part of that is presenting itself as a provider of necessary services, from social, financial and emotional support all the way to fully realized influence peddling (a big problem here, and was even worse during the dreaded Bolsonaro presidency).

Our Constitution declares laicism, but in practice that is just not what we have.

For all practical intents and purposes the typical social contract of Brazilians - even in nuclear families - only very rarely accepts clear refusal of adherence to Christianity. Even our main animist group, Kardecist Spiritism, often imposes fully contradictions into their beliefs in order to insist that they are a Christian group - despite having a doctrine that clearly states that Jesus was not a god, but a highly evolved spirit.

TLDR: Secularism is perceived by most Brazilians as a character flaw, or at least as a curious refusal to be polite.

 

[LuisDantas]

As with so many societal trends, your country is an outlier. In most majority Christian countries, the influence of the various churches on political life has been declining for centuries. The USA and Russia are the two exceptions I can think of. No idea really, why that is.

In Russia the picture has become fairly clear in recent years. The Orthodox Church is positioned as a source of valuable national traditions and has close relations to the political power. The two groups validate each other and the typical citizen shows respect for both and expects to see others doing the same.

Here in Brazil, until recent decades, much the same happened except that it was Roman Catholicism instead of Orthodox Christianity. Now the most vocal churches in Brazil are definitely the plethora of Protestans of various stripes, including some very, very questionable neopentechostals with a pechant for meddling in politics in an even more dubious way and glorifying superstition as a virtue of sorts. Catholicism is still very influential and assumed to be the stance of a random Brazilian in the absence of any indication to the contrary.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I agree, religion should stay in church.

Interesting. I'll make it a point to visit a church on Sunday and present mine there. I'll let you know how it goes.

Forcing your religion on others through politics is a bad point of religion.

Yes, forcing a religious belief on others through politics is unacceptable, but I don't think we should be so quick to condemn of others because their religious principles informing their political values.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Look at the countries where those religions are dominant. Even Buddhism - which has a reputation in the west as a peaceful, easy-going religion - is pretty oppressive once it gets its hands on the reins of power in a society.

Can you please provide an example of this oppressive behavior?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Any thoughts?

I'm not sure being a believer and Secularism are mutually exclusive. For some, including myself, religious or spiritual values inform how interacts with the secular arena. I'm not aware of many believers that don't interact with the secular world save pure ascetics.

 

[Yerda]

Because secularism is in opposition to Islamic, Judaic and Christian beliefs and scriptures. Those who claim to be secular are mere hypocrites who accept a fraction of their religion — which isn't even acceptance. They're fake.

Maybe they prefer to live in peace with people rather than attempting to coerce them into following their own personal preferences.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As with so many societal trends, your country is an outlier. In most majority Christian countries, the influence of the various churches on political life has been declining for centuries. The USA and Russia are the two exceptions I can think of. No idea really, why that is.

Influence is declining in the US, too. This is why different denominations are reaching out to each other in ways they haven't traditionally done.

Where a few decades ago, different denominations would have seen each other as adversaries, now they're partnering with each other out of necessity.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Can you please provide an example of this oppressive behavior?

Just one?

The genocide of the Rohingya Muslims by the Buddhist Myanmar government comes immediately to mind.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Just one?

The genocide of the Rohingya Muslims by the Buddhist Myanmar government comes immediately to mind.

Thanks.

 

[wellwisher]

Just curious... Why aren't there more people who are believers in God, in whatever capacity, that are more Secular?
Even when I used to identify as a Christian, I considered myself Secular.

I know there are a lot of people who are "Nones," out there, but I don't think this position automatically qualifies one as believing in Secularism.
Just like there are many atheists out there that are Humanists, but not all atheists are Humanists.

I sort of believe that there are a lot more people out there who are Deist-type with their God beliefs, they just don't know it and have
probably never heard of it.

Any thoughts?

It has to do with many secular people, already having another god and religion, called money and manna. Faith in the God of hosts, places some limits on behavior, that can make it harder to serve the gods of money and manna. Both use the human religious instinct, and both appear to use the first Commandment of one god and no false gods before their one god.

If a used care salesman had to go along with the 10 commandments, they would lose their card carrying membership. They would not fit into that job, as well as someone with less morals. You would, instead, need to believe in relative morality, to have more options, which can cause you to violate the commandment code. In doing so, you would not be as welcome to the other side. People tend to pick a side.

When I became a young teen; 13, I sort of left the Catholic Church, after being confirmed, to become more of a free agent; an applied christian who was agnostic. My ethic was to live a good Christian life but ignore the imposed social sins of victimless crimes; eat with unwashed hands. This way I could be part of the Love Generation and indulge in the questionable behavior of that time, as long as I did not violate the space and justice of others. I was also open to learning of Eastern Religion and cultures. I did find a balance on my own, that did not require I pick a side. I could come still come and go between the sides.