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Why aren't there more Unitarian Universalists?
- Thread starter Green Gaia
- Start date
Well, about the teenagers at the Church. For some reaon I feel better hanging with the adults and learning from them. The young teens are 10 -14, while the young adults are absent I believe til August. I plan to go through the Roots program to join. I mean I've been going for 7 Sundays and feel like I should join. The people there are so nice and outgoing . Really liberal. My teacher at my school plans to go through Root with me.
Runt
Well-Known Member
Awesome. I'd go for it. And I agree; sometimes hanging out with the adults is much more... I don't know, fulfilling, I guess. However, I have noticed that the conversation with the college age group is much more akin to what we get on this board... lively, fast paced, intellegent debate and general intellectual discourse. Adults are more mellow.
Gorilla
Member
Hi Runty - where did you get the blurb on evil existing? That one makes me a bit uneasy. I personally don't believe in the concept of evil, sin, or hell. I know my mom does somewhat. We're both Unitarians. And the bilaws are always changing at GA and the principles were voted on etc etc, so maybe it's something I haven't seen yet or personally would want to change. It's an interesting statement for the UUA to put out though considering Universalism defines a rejection of hell (which I directly associate with the term evil).
I think one reason more people don't know about UUism is b/c we don't have a traditional calling to "spread the Gospel". I've always thought this was a good thing about UUism that comes right out of respecting other peoples faiths and what they choose to believe. I'm not going to go try to get strangers to be UU's because if they're happy being Hindu or Nondenominational Christian then I certainly respect their choice to practice that faith. When a group of people by definition respect everyone's personal search for truth the necessity to spread your own beliefs to as many as you can tends to go out the window. I don't think UU's will every cease growing because we're preaching some good stuff, but I like the fact that we're not bombarding people with what we believe.
I think one reason more people don't know about UUism is b/c we don't have a traditional calling to "spread the Gospel". I've always thought this was a good thing about UUism that comes right out of respecting other peoples faiths and what they choose to believe. I'm not going to go try to get strangers to be UU's because if they're happy being Hindu or Nondenominational Christian then I certainly respect their choice to practice that faith. When a group of people by definition respect everyone's personal search for truth the necessity to spread your own beliefs to as many as you can tends to go out the window. I don't think UU's will every cease growing because we're preaching some good stuff, but I like the fact that we're not bombarding people with what we believe.
Gorilla
Member
"In fact, very few UUs believe in a continuing, individualized existence after physical death. Even fewer believe in the physical existence of places called heaven or hell where one goes after dying. We believe immortality manifests itself in the lives of those we affect during our lifetime and in the legacy we leave when we die. "
Maize - I think the last statement is true because it is more philisophical, but you've got to be careful about statements that indicate most UU's believe this or that.I've made blanket statements about specific beliefs before and found two things, a-they usually turn out to be untrue and b-they can sometimes turn ppl off to our faith. I would say there are a great deal of UU's who either do believe in some sort of heaven or existence after death or are toying with the idea. There are still some UU churches that read out of the Bible and there are a lot of members like my mom who come from strong Christian or Jewish faiths. Some people come from faiths where they can't fully embrace them because they differ from some of the views proposed, but they still hold firmly to their interpretation of the faith. The idea of an afterlife is as valid as the idea of the absense thereof and if you are introducing someone to UUism you should always try to avoid making specific religious classifications like saying most don't believe in an afterlife. There are deists and atheists in our church, always make sure you leave room for both =).
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"Another key issue--a religion/philosophy may help one live in this life. As we all are curious and have thought about an afterlife, regardless to which religion (or anti-religion) we subscribe, a religion which is not authoritative about that afterlife leaves this unending curiousity unsatisfied.
Does UU address this issue in any authoritative way?"
Question for quick: Do you think an authoritative church fully extinguishes someone's fears about the afterlife? Do you think a person can ever be completely certain of the afterlife, do you think the Pope has never faced any personal doubts about Catholicism? <- that's the biggest example I can think of, could be any person attending an "authoritative church"...
What is your opinion on living a life that is fully for the now? Do you think dedicating your life to helping other people can make your life worthwhile enough to live if the promise of heaven turned out to be untrue? Can your service to others create enough purpose for you to feel satisfied knowing your only time is now?
Maize - I think the last statement is true because it is more philisophical, but you've got to be careful about statements that indicate most UU's believe this or that.I've made blanket statements about specific beliefs before and found two things, a-they usually turn out to be untrue and b-they can sometimes turn ppl off to our faith. I would say there are a great deal of UU's who either do believe in some sort of heaven or existence after death or are toying with the idea. There are still some UU churches that read out of the Bible and there are a lot of members like my mom who come from strong Christian or Jewish faiths. Some people come from faiths where they can't fully embrace them because they differ from some of the views proposed, but they still hold firmly to their interpretation of the faith. The idea of an afterlife is as valid as the idea of the absense thereof and if you are introducing someone to UUism you should always try to avoid making specific religious classifications like saying most don't believe in an afterlife. There are deists and atheists in our church, always make sure you leave room for both =).
--
"Another key issue--a religion/philosophy may help one live in this life. As we all are curious and have thought about an afterlife, regardless to which religion (or anti-religion) we subscribe, a religion which is not authoritative about that afterlife leaves this unending curiousity unsatisfied.
Does UU address this issue in any authoritative way?"
Question for quick: Do you think an authoritative church fully extinguishes someone's fears about the afterlife? Do you think a person can ever be completely certain of the afterlife, do you think the Pope has never faced any personal doubts about Catholicism? <- that's the biggest example I can think of, could be any person attending an "authoritative church"...
What is your opinion on living a life that is fully for the now? Do you think dedicating your life to helping other people can make your life worthwhile enough to live if the promise of heaven turned out to be untrue? Can your service to others create enough purpose for you to feel satisfied knowing your only time is now?
Gorilla
Member
Helios -
First question, is your dad a dentist? Second question, suppose we know there are two kinds of people:
Type one: Doesn't believe in an afterlife. Has feelings of fear about death and inquires the unending question "What is the point of this?" When loved ones die has nothing but a sense of loss to cope with and the memory of the loved one.
Type two: Believes in Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Has troubles in his/her life but always has the reassurance that there is something better waiting (like....waiting 20 minutes even though you're really hungry because in 20 minutes you can go to your favorite restaurant and get whatever you want) in heaven. Through ups and downs no matter how lonely he/she always has someone watching over them. Decisions are made easier by the belief that the Lord will guide you on your path to righteousness. If loved ones die, there is a reassurance in knowing that they are not gone forever as they are in a infinitely better place where you will eventually join them.
Now, let's assume god does not exist, neither does heaven, and in death people completely and utterly cease to exist. Group 1 spent their entire lives not believing in any purpose (the truth) and Group 2 spent their entire lives feeling comforted, feeling joy in their salvation, feeling safe, and feeling wonderful anticipation for the day they would join Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Whatever you believe doesn't matter because you're going to be dead anyway, SO:
the only time you had was here on Earth.
Group 2 believed in a falsehood. Group 1 believed in the truth.
Group 2 was a buttload happier than Group 1 could ever be. The only time to exist felt safer and happier for Group 2 than for Group 1.
Which group is smarter.
First question, is your dad a dentist? Second question, suppose we know there are two kinds of people:
Type one: Doesn't believe in an afterlife. Has feelings of fear about death and inquires the unending question "What is the point of this?" When loved ones die has nothing but a sense of loss to cope with and the memory of the loved one.
Type two: Believes in Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Has troubles in his/her life but always has the reassurance that there is something better waiting (like....waiting 20 minutes even though you're really hungry because in 20 minutes you can go to your favorite restaurant and get whatever you want) in heaven. Through ups and downs no matter how lonely he/she always has someone watching over them. Decisions are made easier by the belief that the Lord will guide you on your path to righteousness. If loved ones die, there is a reassurance in knowing that they are not gone forever as they are in a infinitely better place where you will eventually join them.
Now, let's assume god does not exist, neither does heaven, and in death people completely and utterly cease to exist. Group 1 spent their entire lives not believing in any purpose (the truth) and Group 2 spent their entire lives feeling comforted, feeling joy in their salvation, feeling safe, and feeling wonderful anticipation for the day they would join Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Whatever you believe doesn't matter because you're going to be dead anyway, SO:
the only time you had was here on Earth.
Group 2 believed in a falsehood. Group 1 believed in the truth.
Group 2 was a buttload happier than Group 1 could ever be. The only time to exist felt safer and happier for Group 2 than for Group 1.
Which group is smarter.
Runt
Well-Known Member
From the "Principles and Purposes" as stated on the Unitarian Universalist Association's website: http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html
Well, the website never addressed sin or hell... and personally I don't think the concept of evil has to be tied to these; it CAN be recognized as a subjective idea (i.e. murder is bad for SOCIETY, that which is bad for society is often called "evil", so we use the word "evil" because it is convenient. It does not refer to an OBJECTIVE concept.)
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Gorilla--
And of course, there's always Group 4: those whose irrational beliefs lead to a willingness to pursue things which will detriment this life (i.e. soldiers sacrificing themselves in the name of religion, ritual corporal punishment, etc.) in the hopes of being rewarded in the next.
You failed to take into account Group 3: those who know the truth, accept it, and lead happy lives anyway. They're probably not only the smartest group, but the most mature, don't you think?
And of course, there's always Group 4: those whose irrational beliefs lead to a willingness to pursue things which will detriment this life (i.e. soldiers sacrificing themselves in the name of religion, ritual corporal punishment, etc.) in the hopes of being rewarded in the next.
Gorilla
Member
No I do not think Group 3 is more mature. The only way to classify which person (as I wouldn't classify the group) is more mature lies in who has more respect for the other persons beliefs. The post was a ponder this question. I have no other comment on Groups 3 and 4 as they were not part of the question. Look at it like some sermons, completely and utterly rhetorical.
Gorilla
Member
Here's a purpose for the question: Judgements are bad regardless. An athiest not liking that a Christian believes in something false is completely ridiculous considering if the athiest is correct it doesn't matter what the Christian believes anyway. I've rarely met a true Athiest, one who demonstrates no underlying subconscious anger or guilt. If you tell me you're an athiest and then get pissed at religious people I'm certainly not going to believe you when you tell me you're secure in your own belief. The only true Athiest I have met fully respects religiously-devout peoples right of religious choice. And he is Athiest for lack of a better idea, a.k.a. an agnostic. I suppose I'll open this can of worms - I have personally never in my whole life met someone who gave me the impression that they were honestly athiest. And I've met a bunch who say they are. What does -that- mean...
Bastet
Vile Stove-Toucher
Just wanted to point out, you're getting off topic here...the subject of this thread is "Why aren't there more Unitarian Universalists?".
And Gorilla, if you want to address someone specifically within a thread, you might want to make sure that they actually posted there in the first place. I don't see Helios' name here on any of these 4 pages...
And Gorilla, if you want to address someone specifically within a thread, you might want to make sure that they actually posted there in the first place. I don't see Helios' name here on any of these 4 pages...
Gorilla
Member
Sorry, I didn't mean to post that in this thread -- still trying to figure out how everything works.
--
"Well, the website never addressed sin or hell... and personally I don't think the concept of evil has to be tied to these; it CAN be recognized as a subjective idea (i.e. murder is bad for SOCIETY, that which is bad for society is often called "evil", so we use the word "evil" because it is convenient. It does not refer to an OBJECTIVE concept.)"
You're right it can be recognized as a subjective idea, but I think a good portion of the world does not think of it in that way, specifically other main world religions. I would prefer that the UUA did not represent me in making that statement.
--
"Well, the website never addressed sin or hell... and personally I don't think the concept of evil has to be tied to these; it CAN be recognized as a subjective idea (i.e. murder is bad for SOCIETY, that which is bad for society is often called "evil", so we use the word "evil" because it is convenient. It does not refer to an OBJECTIVE concept.)"
You're right it can be recognized as a subjective idea, but I think a good portion of the world does not think of it in that way, specifically other main world religions. I would prefer that the UUA did not represent me in making that statement.
Runt
Well-Known Member
I agree; many of the things considered "evil" by other religions are not by any means evil in my book... they may be wrong in relation to certain things (such as detrimental to society or to an individual) but I can't really think of ANYTHING I consider OBJECTIVELY evil.
But here is the full quote from the uua.org website: "The living tradition which we share draws from many sources: ... Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love..." This, to me, sounds like it encourages social responsibility and peaceful solutions to problems ("evils").
Getting this back on topic
, I think more people are ATTRACTED to statements such as this within the UU church than against it (though, for course, there are those who are going to be of differing opinions... we're Unitarian Universalists!) I think the UU Principles and Purposes has brought many people TO the church rather than scaring them away; I know this is why my parents came. They thought it put forth good social values while allowing them (and us children) to explore their own spirituality.But many people who would normally be attracted to the UU church but who also look at everything as sets of subjective (rather than objective) truths might actually be pushed AWAY when they read the UU Principles and Purposes, because some of the statements it makes assumes that there are universal truths (which I don't really think there are, at least not about moral issues).
Darz
Member
I went to a local UU church for a few weeks and stopped going recently. The main reasons I no longer go is that I felt there was really no spirituality to be found there. I think it's a problem of catering to too many different faiths and the attempt to avoid taking any position on faith. There was no mention of God or any higher power, no mention of the soul, no mention of anything I associate with spirituality. During the sermon I felt like I was sitting in another lecture at college.
Even during the time for the community to express their joys and concerns and light a candle, not one single person who expressed a concern ever asked people to pray. It was always, "please keep me or this other individual in your thoughts." Are people really that afraid of identifying part of their beliefs to the rest of the congregation?
Usually I can identify much more with open minded individuals like the congregations at UU churches, but I honestly feel like I get more out of a Catholic mass than at a UU service(even though I am far cry from a Christian now).
I realize that every UU church is different though, so I may go to a different UU church after I graduate to see if I like it more there.
Even during the time for the community to express their joys and concerns and light a candle, not one single person who expressed a concern ever asked people to pray. It was always, "please keep me or this other individual in your thoughts." Are people really that afraid of identifying part of their beliefs to the rest of the congregation?
Usually I can identify much more with open minded individuals like the congregations at UU churches, but I honestly feel like I get more out of a Catholic mass than at a UU service(even though I am far cry from a Christian now).
I realize that every UU church is different though, so I may go to a different UU church after I graduate to see if I like it more there.
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Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Draz, welcome. :candle:
Your concerns and observations are nothing unique. But you're right in saying that every UU congregation is different and if UU is something you want to continue to look into, I urge you to try other churches.
Some people have preconceptions about what a church service should be like given their past experiences with religion, and it's true we probably rarely live up to those preconceptions. We are something different and although we welcome everyone, we also recognize that not everyone will connect with us.
One other thing you could do too, is talk to people within the UU church you've already been attending. You may not be alone in your concerns. Most congregations are very open to offering classes/services their congregants want. If you want something more spiritual, ask about it. Be careful though, you may get volunteered to lead it.
Your concerns and observations are nothing unique. But you're right in saying that every UU congregation is different and if UU is something you want to continue to look into, I urge you to try other churches.
Some people have preconceptions about what a church service should be like given their past experiences with religion, and it's true we probably rarely live up to those preconceptions. We are something different and although we welcome everyone, we also recognize that not everyone will connect with us.
One other thing you could do too, is talk to people within the UU church you've already been attending. You may not be alone in your concerns. Most congregations are very open to offering classes/services their congregants want. If you want something more spiritual, ask about it. Be careful though, you may get volunteered to lead it.
Trey of Diamonds
Well-Known Member
Hi Draz,
Also, some UU churchs tend to the spiritual more in their covenant groups than on the pulpit. Meeting in small discussion groups with a targeted subject is a very good way to delve deep into the spiritual. I agree with you that sometimes it seems as though the pulpit is just a place to announce events and listen to the latest political rant. But every UU church is different so I will echo Green Gaia and recommend try a couple.
Welcome to the Forum!
Also, some UU churchs tend to the spiritual more in their covenant groups than on the pulpit. Meeting in small discussion groups with a targeted subject is a very good way to delve deep into the spiritual. I agree with you that sometimes it seems as though the pulpit is just a place to announce events and listen to the latest political rant. But every UU church is different so I will echo Green Gaia and recommend try a couple.
Welcome to the Forum!