Why Baha’i? It Comes Down to Five Questions

[Trailblazer]

Your statements are not supported by evidence.

 

[paarsurrey]

Shoghi Effend translated sections of Tablets that He saw would benefit our understanding of the Faith and compiled them is a book call 'Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah'.

Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library

It is not wrong, it is not misleading, it is a book of Gleanings which are; "things, especially facts, that are gathered or collected from various sources rather than acquired as a whole.."

Regards Tony

"it is not misleading"
It is more than that, it is, as I understand, "trickery" on the part of Shoghi Effendi. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What you do not know is that the Intermediary is not an ordinary man... If He was, there would be absolutely no reason to believe Him at all.

The Intermediaries, referred to by Baha'is as Manifestations of God, possess two stations: one is the physical station, and one the spiritual. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality.

Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting His Self, His Beauty, His Might and Glory. All else besides them are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,

The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. Their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world before their bodies were born in this world, whereas the souls of all humans come into being at the moment of conception. The spiritual world is where They get their special powers from God. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
People can believe whatever they want to, but as far as my belief is concerned, anybody who believes that God is communicating to them directly is deluded by their idle fancies because God does not communicate directly with anyone except His Chosen Messengers. If people do not "like that" they can imagine God is speaking to them or they can choose to be atheists. I think being an atheist is the wiser and more rational choice.

Yes, all very tidy. Except for the usual caveats, among the most important of which is that although God is unknowable, you have just provided a list of things that you know about how he works, what he can and cannot do, and what he will and will not do.

Pretty good, for something completely unknowable, really.

But to be honest, I see it all as nothing but special pleading.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"it is not misleading"
It is more than that, it is, as I understand, "trickery" on the part of Shoghi Effendi. Right, please?

Regards

Its no longer of me you need to ask. I have given my answers.

That is between you and Allah. Allah appointed Shoghi Effendi as part of the Covenant given by Baha'u'llah.

“God commands you to return trusts to their rightful owners. And if you judge between people, to do so with justice: God’s instructions to you are excellent, for He hears and sees everything.” [Qur’an, 4.58]

“Whoever obeys God and the Messenger will be among those He has blessed: the messengers, the truthful, those who bear witness to the truth, and the righteous– what excellent companions these are!” [Qur’an, 4.69]

Regards Tony

 

[Pete in Panama]

...God is unknowable, you have just provided a list of things that you know about how he works, what he can and cannot do, and what he will and will not do.

Pretty good, for something completely unknowable...

Totally illogical. Completely unreasonable.

Of course that's how all models work when discussing the ultimate cosmological issues, and it seems to boil down to problems w/ what words mean when we converse and the nature of our logic patterns.

It's also a matter of our motivation. Let's say someone says God is good and created everything that is. Sure, the easy path here is to just strut our superiority and ridicule those of diverse religions. Those of us interested in taking on a more interesting challenge may want to join together forming a team and maybe we can see what else there is.

Anyone?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Those of us interested in taking on a more interesting challenge may want to join together forming a team and maybe we can see what else there is.

Anyone?

Why? (That question in line with the OP)

My answer to your request is that a Unity of purpose and mind will unlock the most amazing discoveries yet to be envisioned by and single mind. It will be a spiritually fufilling, Scientific mind blowing extravaganza, that can only evolve to greater heights.

Regards Tony

 

[Pete in Panama]

...a Unity of purpose and mind will unlock the most amazing discoveries yet to be envisioned by and single mind. It will be a spiritually fufilling, Scientific mind blowing extravaganza, that can only evolve to greater heights.

Regards Tony

To me that reality is sublimely awe inspiring. Still, so many people chose instead to squabble over religious dogma and ignore the enormous vistas of knowledge being opened up --it reminds me of how we're all born into a world of milk and honey yet so many choose opium.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

To me that reality is sublimely awe inspiring. Still, so many people chose instead to squabble over religious dogma and ignore the enormous vistas of knowledge being opened up --it reminds me of how we're all born into a world of milk and honey yet so many choose opium.

That just gave me a thought of what is was to be more Scientific in Faith.

Example. We have a doctrine on lets say for this thought, Reincarnation.

We could compile all thought from all Faiths that can in any way link to that subject and discuss. With the results of those discussions, we could then add into the Mix current scientific thought about those conclusions.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

"it is not misleading"
It is more than that, it is, as I understand, "trickery" on the part of Shoghi Effendi. Right, please?

Regards

At the beginning of this thread, you asked me: “Did Baha’u’llah claim in a straightforward manner in Kitab-i-Iqan that G-d has revealed him a message, please? If yes, then please quote from Kitab-i-Iqan such unequivocal words. Right, please?”

What is in Gleanings about Manifestations of God (Messengers, Prophets) is also in the Kitab-i-Iqan. I finally found some time to look through my files and I found it.

Please note that Baha’u’llah is referring to Himself and all the other Manifestations of God in this passage:

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine!” 18 And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.” 19 And were any of them to voice the utterance: “I am the Messenger of God,” He also speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: “Muḥammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God.” 20 Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. And were they all to proclaim: “I am the Seal of the Prophets,” they verily utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say: “We are the servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of being were deeply immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of divine mysteries, they claimed their utterance to be the Voice of divinity, the Call of God Himself. Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self, within such a Court, is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence. In the eyes of them that have attained unto that Court, such a suggestion is itself a grievous transgression. How much more grievous would it be, were aught else to be mentioned in that Presence, were man’s heart, his tongue, his mind, or his soul, to be busied with anyone but the Well-Beloved, were his eyes to behold any countenance other than His beauty, were his ear to be inclined to any melody but His voice, and were his feet to tread any way but His way.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 178-180

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, all very tidy. Except for the usual caveats, among the most important of which is that although God is unknowable, you have just provided a list of things that you know about how he works, what he can and cannot do, and what he will and will not do.

Pretty good, for something completely unknowable, really.

I never said the Will of God was unknowable, I only ever said that the Essence of God (God’s intrinsic nature) is unknowable.

The Will of God is knowable if it is revealed by a Messenger of God. What I have described is the Will of God, not the Essence of God. Nobody can ever know the Essence of God, not even the Messenger of God.

“The conceptions of the devoutest of mystics, the attainments of the most accomplished amongst men, the highest praise which human tongue or pen can render are all the product of man’s finite mind and are conditioned by its limitations. Ten thousand Prophets, each a Moses, are thunderstruck upon the Sinai of their search at His forbidding voice, “Thou shalt never behold Me!”; whilst a myriad Messengers, each as great as Jesus, stand dismayed upon their heavenly thrones by the interdiction, “Mine Essence thou shalt never apprehend!” From time immemorial He hath been veiled in the ineffable sanctity of His exalted Self, and will everlastingly continue to be wrapt in the impenetrable mystery of His unknowable Essence. Every attempt to attain to an understanding of His inaccessible Reality hath ended in complete bewilderment, and every effort to approach His exalted Self and envisage His Essence hath resulted in hopelessness and failure.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 62-63

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I never said the Will of God was unknowable, I only ever said that the Essence of God (God’s intrinsic nature) is unknowable.

The Will of God is knowable if it is revealed by a Messenger of God. What I have described is the Will of God, not the Essence of God. Nobody can ever know the Essence of God, not even the Messenger of God.

“The conceptions of the devoutest of mystics, the attainments of the most accomplished amongst men, the highest praise which human tongue or pen can render are all the product of man’s finite mind and are conditioned by its limitations. Ten thousand Prophets, each a Moses, are thunderstruck upon the Sinai of their search at His forbidding voice, “Thou shalt never behold Me!”; whilst a myriad Messengers, each as great as Jesus, stand dismayed upon their heavenly thrones by the interdiction, “Mine Essence thou shalt never apprehend!” From time immemorial He hath been veiled in the ineffable sanctity of His exalted Self, and will everlastingly continue to be wrapt in the impenetrable mystery of His unknowable Essence. Every attempt to attain to an understanding of His inaccessible Reality hath ended in complete bewilderment, and every effort to approach His exalted Self and envisage His Essence hath resulted in hopelessness and failure.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 62-63

I still maintain that's too tidy. You know the will of God because a "Messenger of God" tells you so, and you know that he's a "Messenger of God" because he tells you that, too.

Please, if somebody offers to sell you a bridge, don't fall for it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I still maintain that's too tidy. You know the will of God because a "Messenger of God" tells you so, and you know that he's a "Messenger of God" because he tells you that, too.

Please, if somebody offers to sell you a bridge, don't fall for it.

The key thought here is, that it is never for sale, it is always only offered, thus it is yours free, to walk across anytime you make the choice to do so.

We are told to Judge the Messenger by Their own Message, as it is the standard for the age they live in and it shows they speak the Truth. In fact it is the Challenge offered in this age.

Baha'u'llah asked us to enquire of where he was born, to show us that he was a speaker of Truth.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I still maintain that's too tidy. You know the will of God because a "Messenger of God" tells you so,

Yes, that’s true. There is no other way to know the Will of God.
It is tidy but it is true.

and you know that he's a "Messenger of God" because he tells you that, too.

No, absolutely not, because that would be circular reasoning...

It would also be pretty gullible and foolish to believe someone is a Messenger of God just because they told me that, since anyone can make such a claim.

I know because of the evidence that indicates He got a message from God.