Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
I did, idea, I asked with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ. Did all that. Bupkus. Therefore, by your logic (not mine) clearly both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are false.
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Why believe The Bible?
- Thread starter Paintanker
- Start date
I did, idea, I asked with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ. Did all that. Bupkus. Therefore, by your logic (not mine) clearly both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are false.
How do you know the Bible is right? This question presents a problem for any system of thought, science included. I say this because there's no system of thought derived from man that has been proven to be infallible. Some say science is self-correcting, well that's assuming that all scientists are honest and that they'll notice all of their mistakes which is not always the case. As for the Bible, some parts of it have been proven to be accurate, like the areas supported by archaeological evidence and historical corroborations.
I've also tried to offer an argument using history and ideologies, that is that idealogies and behavior to a great extent effect with how a person will act and how they're life will turn out. Taken to a mass scale, how the people of a nation behave and the ideologies they have (especially religious based) will influence and/or effect how that nation will be, whether for the good or bad. We can use history to test what ideologies have shaped what civilizations or cultures and how those civilizations turned out. For example, the U.S. although perhaps not caused by Christianity but it at least at one point was the major influence of society, especially before the separation of Church and State. We flourished to the top of all nations, militarily, civily, and shockingly even scientifically with the space age race to the moon. Following the reasoning of my argument, the ideologies and practices that influenced America, which to the dominant degree was Christianity, caused our country to reach that prominent blessed status we were in beyond all other nations. Ironically, with the lessening of Christian influence in our country, the U.S. is deteriorating financially, morally, etc.
Of course, my last point deals with religious experience. Despite, the inaccuracies within the Bible, I have still practiced it and it led me to changing my life. Practicing it has also opened the door for me to have supernatural experiences with God, like when I'm taught how to pray in the Bible, and I practice it and the times that God grants my prayer. So bottom line, although the Bible is not errorless, it's still useful, even to practice it and at times that can yield remarkable experiences with God.
Sorry if my comments are long but I hope that helps.
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Just curious... How can an atheist have faith in Christ? Wouldn't it be necessary to at least believe in Christ in order to have faith in Him?
OmarKhayyam
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by idea
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
(Book of Mormon | Moroni10:3 - 5)
The Holy Ghost is an actual being who can actually communicate with you. You can feel the presence."
Translation:
When you decide to believe it then - Viola You WILL believe it.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
No. I don't think we decide what to believe. Likewise, I don't think we decide what not to believe.Translation:
When you decide to believe it then - Viola You WILL believe it.
MysticPhD
Member
This is a common misconception, IMO . . . it isn't necessary that you even know about Jesus to have faith in the inner guidance He provides ALL humans through His Holy Spirit (since His rebirth as Spirit after the crucifixion). When you live and act in a Christlike manner . . . you are exhibiting that acceptance and faith in the righteousness that is being urged on ALL humankind by Jesus . . . again IMO.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Well, speaking specifically of the quote from the Book of Mormon that Idea posted, and of Autodidact's response, I would have to disagree. I do believe that everyone is born with what I would call "the light of Christ," but I believe that it's necessary to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and our Savior before it is possible to pray to God in His Name and to have faith in Him.
My point in posting what I did was that I find it kind of annoying to hear people say, "Yup, I prayed to God, asking Him if the Book of Mormon was true and He said it wasn't." Now I'm not going to say that everybody who does pray with a sincere heart, who really does want to know whether the book is true or not is going to get the same answer. I don't know why that is, and it's not up to me to try to figure it out. I do feel confident in saying, though, that someone who doesn't believe God exists is NOT going to attempt to communicate with Him through prayer or any other means. It's absolute baloney for such a person to say he did. Likewise, if a person says he prayed about the Book of Mormon but is convinced that the book is a fraud, he is not going to get an answer that it's true. It's just not going to happen.
Anyway, I would not have even brought this up except for Auto's response to Idea's post. This is supposed to be a thread on the Bible, not on the Book of Mormon. So... I'm done here.
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MysticPhD
Member
I can understand that view and it is quite the prevalent one. But I see no need for intercession of the kind reflected in such a view . . . since God does not WANT to punish us for ANYTHING. We are to be saved from ourselves and our ignorance . . . NOT God. As long as we follow that inner guidance and adopt a Christlike "state of mind" in love of God and each other . . . (whatever else we believe) . . . we will be saved, IMO.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I appreciate what you are saying, MysticDoc, but I would suggest that it is unreasonable to imply that human animal's can be "saved" from their own ignorance. I would suggest that ignorance is something we will never be free of, regardless of how wise we become or if we allow our arrogance to seduce us into thinking otherwise.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Obviously, Katzpur, that was before I became an atheist, and helped lead to me becoming one. Because I use the same logic as idea.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
No, it's not, it assumes the exact opposite. Apparently you don't know much about how science works. Science is a method for correcting and eliminating dishonesty and error, the best such method ever devised.
Mostly just some place names; not much else.
Using words like "reasoning" and "argument," loosely. Surely you can reflect for a millisecond and see how weak both are? Or do you also agree that the Roman Gods are real and should be worshipped? How about the Chinese? The Mayan?
Does God grant your prayer at any greater rate than random chance? If so, you're the first person in the history of the world to experience this.
Yes, it helps a lot. The quality of the "arguments" put forth by religious apologists always helps me feel more secure in my atheism.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
That's so presumptious, but it does allow Christians to appropriate credit for all the good done in the world.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
I'm sure you find it extremely annoying when you're shown to be wrong; so do I. Oh, I see. If you don't get the result that Katzpur wants, it was absolute baloney. If you do, it confirms Katzpur's belief. So you disregard any data that doesn't confirm your prior beliefs. Handy that, if your goal is to keep believing regardless. Not so good if you're trying to find the truth.
I say that the assertion that if you pray etc. sincerely etc. that God will reveal Himself is absolute baloney. Show that I'm wrong.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Isn't it nice of God's representative on earth, MysticPhD, to come and enlighten us like this?
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
An idea that most religionists find very hard to grasp is that of consistency. If any argument is valid, it has to be consistent. The same logic has to work equally for everyone. If idea can assert that sincere prayer is a valid source of knowledge, and if we are expected to accept that idea did pray sincerely and receive such knowledge, then you have to grant that if I prayed equally sincerely, my knowledge must be equally valid. Otherwise you're using inconsistent standards, which is a dead giveaway to the rest of us that your argument sucks rocks.