• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why Bible-based Christianity is illogical

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
It's telling that you set up science as the opposition to fideism; it's also wrong. Reason is the opposition, and reason does not depend on science - quite the contrary, science depends on reason.
Science, reason, philosophy. Take your pick. Note (again) that this "rebuttal" doesn't actually answer to the point raised at all. I am detecting a sort of theme in my attempts to converse with you.

That being said, I'm not going to waste my time trying to have a discussion with you; I've already learned the hard way that it goes nowhere.
And again...

You're as much a fundamentalist as any religious person, blindly certain that everything you believe is correct
Where have I stated that everything I believe is correct? There is a huge amount of uncertainty that comes along with anything and everything I actually believe. I do adhere to those items and may attempt to defend them, but in the end, if someone has a better position, I am reason-bound to re-assess. For example, one of the items I believe is that any belief in God that you have is based only in non-empirical sources of "information." Things like what someone else told you, or what you read in a book, or how you felt in a particular moment, or coincidences you felt were too unlikely to be taken for granted. In other words, I believe you have allowed yourself to be compelled to believe things without substantial grounding. But again... you could potentially provide some other source of information - one that would compel even a skeptic like myself - provided there is such information to be had, of course. And if there is not... well, I feel that situation speaks quite loudly for itself.

In the end, most of what I feel I do is ask the tough questions, hand over some tough realities. And mostly, those I interact with in this way react like you are doing now. What am I to make of it, do you think?
 

izzy88

Active Member
And mostly, those I interact with in this way react like you are doing now. What am I to make of it, do you think?

"If you run into an a**hole in the morning, you ran into an a**hole.

If you run into a**holes all day, you're the a**hole."

- Raylan Givens

To be completely clear, I'm not calling you an a**hole. The point is merely that if you seem to be having the same problem with everyone you interact with, it's probably time to consider the possibility that you are, in fact, the problem.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
"If you run into an a**hole in the morning, you ran into an a**hole.

If you run into a**holes all day, you're the a**hole."

- Raylan Givens

To be completely clear, I'm not calling you an a**hole. The point is merely that if you seem to be having the same problem with everyone you interact with, it's probably time to consider the possibility that you are, in fact, the problem.
Oops... my fault. It's not everyone I interact with. I seem to have left out some context. Theists. It's theists - mostly of the Christian persuasion. That's who I meant. They dodge, get huffy, and run away. And all this due to questions they can't help but be discomfited by.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Are non-Catholics really taught this? You're the third person I've spoken to here who claims the Catholic Church doesn't believe in the Bible. You've evidently been lied to; every teaching of the Church is supported by scripture…

Bible tells for example:

The overseer therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife…
1 Tim. 3:2

But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, through the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron; forbidding marriage and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
1 Tim. 4:1-3

Catholic Church seems to oppose those. But that I think is not as bad as the non-Biblical Trinity.

However, I can believe that there are also Catholics who are loyal to Jesus and his words, this was only about the general Church institution and its common doctrines and rulers.

…You're assuming from the outset that the Bible is inspired, yet you would have no reason to assume so if the Catholic Church hadn't said that these specific books were inspired in the first place…

I think it is inspired because of what is said in the books, not because of Catholic Church saying so.

…Saying that the Church isn't always lead by the Holy Spirit but was when they compiled the Bible ...

I don’t say the Church has been led by Holy Spirit. I believe some people have been. The Church institution (all of them actually) seem to be led by greed and lust for power. But luckily in the Church, there has been people who have been led by Holy spirit and have managed to collect the books that are in the Bible. And I think it is quite miraculous, for example if we notice that Bible says:

For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments, and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi, Rabbi' by men. But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers. Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you will be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Mat. 23:4-12

I think that describes well Church leaders. And that is one reason why I think God has protected the Bible also from Catholic Church. And maybe that is also one reason why long time Catholic Church prevented normal people to have it in their own language.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, but I can't have a serious conversation with someone who calls it "The Roman Church of Emperor Constantine" continuously. Maybe take a break from cross-referencing every quote in scripture and take some time to actually study the history of the Church.

After Constantine, had firmly established himself as the Emperor of Rome, he found himself in the middle of a terrible dispute between all the rival so-called Christian groups, who were continually hurling slanderous insults at each other, and in order to reconcile those groups of Christians, which had no supreme ecclesiastical Authority, no single Pope over the growing Christian movement, Constantine, in 325 AD, called together the Bishops of Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, and the leaders of the many fringe groups, who were recognized as having supreme authority over their particular districts, to the first ever ’WORLD COUNCIL’ of churches, in the town of Nicaea in Turkey.

From the book, “Jesus The Evidence,” by Ian Wilson. It was at this point in history, and before this assembly, that a decision was to be made that would have the most profound consequences for believers in Jesus Christ to this day. In the simplest of terms, the point at issue was whether Jesus was a mere human being [Now incontestably divine] who had been brought into existence to serve God’s purpose-to act as the ‘word’ of God at a particular time in the early first century AD, or whether he had been God for all eternity, ‘of one substance with the Father (As those in the West expressed it), If the latter, then he was effectively a superterrestrial entity easily compared with Sol Invictus, but light years removed from the Jesus envisaged by Arius and the Antiochenes, who reflected Christianity’s origin in Jewish monotheism and had stressed the essential oneness of God, the simple humanity of Jesus, and the importance of the way of life Jesus taught..

For the judgment of Solomon on the issue, the only appropriate recourse was to Constantine, almost theologically illiterate, but politically a superb man manager. Exactly what swayed Constantine in that crucial moment we shall probably never know. There can be little doubt that for him the deification of a man was nothing particular special. He had his father Constantius deified, and would be accorded the same honour after his own death, and would surely have expected Jesus to be a superior entity in the divine hierarchy. He might well also have taken into account Alexandria’s strategic and commercial advantages. What-ever his motives, Constantine ruled in favour of the Alexandrian. Eusebius’ formula was heavenly edited to accommodate the Alexandrian view, and while affirming that the standpoint of the Antiochenes was entirely reasonable, Constantine urged all council delegates to sign the revised formula as a statement of faith on which all Christians should in the future agree.

It was Then that the Roman church of Emperor Constantine was firmly established.

“Jesus The Evidence,” by Ian Wilson. P. 144. The Middle Ages, for the Jews at least, began with the advent to power of Constantine the Great. He was the first Roman Emperor to issue laws which radically limited the rights of the Jews as citizens’ of the Roman Empire, a right conferred on them by Caracalla in 212. As Constantine’s church grew in power it influenced the emperors to limit further the civil and political rights of the Jews.

But if times were again difficult for the Jews, for the Christian Gnostics and other fringe groups they were impossible. The books of Arius and his sympathizers were ordered to be burnt, and a reign of terror proclaimed for all those who did not conform with the new official Christian line.

:Understand now by this present statute, Novatians, Valentinians, Marcionites, Paulinians, you who are called Cataphrygians. . . . with what a tissue of lies and vanities, with what destructive and venomous errors, your doctrines are inextricably woven! We give you warning . . . .Let none of you presume, from this time forward, to meet in congregations. To prevent this, we command that you be deprived of all the houses in which you have been accustomed to meet . . . . and that these house should be handed over immediately to the catholic/ i.e. universal church.

Within a generation, hardly leaving a trace of their existence for posterity, the great majority of these groups simply died away as successive Christian emperors reiterated the policies that Constantine had pursued.

If the Christian books of those groups condemned by Constantine's Roman church were burned, you can bet no Jewish literature remained in the land of the Roman Empire.
 
Last edited:

Muffled

Jesus in me
This line of reasoning is the main one that led me toward Catholicism myself several years ago. Protestant Christianity just seems completely divorced from the history of their own religion before 1500 AD.

I believe that would not lead me back to a church that had become corrupt. Thankfully I have the Holy Spirit as my guide and I go where He wishes me to go since Jesus is my Lord and Savior.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Please explain what you mean by this, because on its face it seems to be a ridiculous claim.

Ah, yes, and I suppose you have some out-of-context Bible verses that have been personally interpreted by you or someone else who knows next to nothing about biblical scholarship or hermeneutics that you're going to use to prove this point?

It seems ridiculous to you that every sect (thousands of them) that isn't Roman or Orthodox uses the same 39 books as Israel for the Hebrew scriptures and rejects Maccabees, etc.? This despite the fact that "apo" "crypha" = "false" "writing" and "pseudo" "pigrapha" means "writing of dubious origin" and that Rome and the Orthodox label these books as apocryhpa?

I have a secular Religion degree and understand and teach hermeneutics. Even a cursory reading of say, Romans 9-11 shows God warning us that the "church" that slays Protestants and Jews in the millions is "arrogant branches claiming support from the root" (Christ).
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Even a cursory reading of say, Romans 9-11 shows God warning us that the "church" that slays Protestants and Jews in the millions is "arrogant branches claiming support from the root" (Christ).
And Protestants did the same if you were to actually do your homework.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
I'm confused. You say you believe in Jesus and in the Holy Spirit, yet you do not believe in the Trinity? Can you clarify?

I believe what the Bible tells. Bible doesn’t speak about trinity, and I think it is in contradiction with the Bible, which is why I reject it.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Why am I not a catholic?

To be a catholic, I am asked to believe that Jesus pre-existed the creation of this boundless cosmos, and that some two thousand years ago, he came down to earth and entered the womb of some supposed ever virgin, where he created for himself a humanlike body that was not of the seed of Adam, and therefore free of the penalty of the original sin, unlike we mere humans who are descendants of Adam.

After walking through the land of Judea for some thirty years, and more disguised as a human being, he willingly took that human-like body to the cross and had it Killed, before raising that body to life again, three days later, and translating it to a spiritual body, before ascending once again to his eternal heavenly home in the Kingdom of God, where flesh and blood cannot enter.

Am I so gullible as to believe that biblically unsupported concept of Christ? I think not.
 
Last edited:
Why am I not a catholic?

To be a catholic, I am asked to believe that Jesus pre-existed the creation of this boundless cosmos, and that some two thousand years ago, he came down to earth and entered the womb of some supposed ever virgin, where he created for himself a humanlike body that was not of the seed of Adam, and therefore free of the penalty of the original sin, unlike we mere humans who are descendants of Adam.

After walking through the land of Judea for some thirty years, and more disguised as a human being, he willingly took that human-like body to the cross and had it Killed, before raising that body to life again, three days later, and translating it to a spiritual body, before ascending once again to his eternal heavenly home in the Kingdom of God, where flesh and blood cannot enter.

Am I so gullible as to believe that biblically unsupported concept of Christ? I think not.
Where you there?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
And Protestants did the same if you were to actually do your homework.

Hmm. Hitler was Catholic. I don't know that Protestants killed millions of Jews and Christians claiming their deaths were for biblical heresy! Protestants and Catholics have had imperiast and other wars...
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Hitler was Catholic.
Who long had left the faith, not only of Catholicism but also of Christianity in general.

I don't know that Protestants killed millions of Jews and Christians claiming their deaths were for biblical heresy! Protestants and Catholics have had imperiast and other wars...
Then you have never done the studying. I'll try and link you to some sources later as I have to leave for now, but maybe remember the Holocaust and who was more involved, plus maybe consider the use of genocide against the Amerindians here in the Americas, especially in North America. Plus remember the atrocities committed during the Protestant Reformation against Catholics, Jews, and others, much based on the bigotry you frequently post here.

BTW, I grew up Protestant, and the church did a terrible job taking any blame for what they did during any of this.
 
Top