Why can't some people accept that the Israelites were black?

[Curious George]

But even though skin colour has something to do with it on who we socially label black, we still mostly call people black (and they themselves black) if they are from African descent, hence why you may see an Asian person who is dark skinned but not call them black - even though if we were strictly meaning skin colour we would call them black.

People's descent is not always clear.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Australian aborigines are often referred to as black.

True, probably because they are dark skinned and because of their features, but they are pretty much the exception not the rule. Like I said being black is a social construct and it's generally more positive to just say where you are from. However if a question is brought up like "were the ancient Egyptians black Africans?" then I'm going to answer according to what I and what in general people classify as being from black African descent as supposed to being white or Semitic for example.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

People's descent is not always clear.

I know, mine isn't and I don't get offended

 

[MusaaEl-Haadi]

The quote from the Bible you gave did not explain it to me. I am asking what does it mean to be black, according to you. When you say "that man is black," do you mean that man is Jesus?

In my post I Explian it very clear if your couldn't overstand it that tell me you have no knowldge scriptures in the language it was written in . those who had it remove from the forum , had a very clear understanding , That why it was remove . And they couldn't Challenga it , Other then saying people of the bible didn't exist . When the person who created the post was talking about the people of the scriptures .

You have some people here cliaming that the Aborigines are black , When their hair tell a diffrent story .

 

[Curious George]

In my post I Explian it very clear if your couldn't overstand it that tell me you have no knowldge scriptures in the language it was written in . those who had it remove from the forum , had a very clear understanding , That why it was remove . And they couldn't Challenga it , Other then saying people of the bible didn't exist . When the person who created the post was talking about the people of the scriptures .

You have some people here cliaming that the Aborigines are black , When their hair tell a diffrent story .

No, I am saying some people refer to native Australians as black. And what do you mean by their hair tells a different story.

I am sorry I have no knowledge, but that doesn't change what I am saying. I would still like to know what you think it means to be black.

 

[MusaaEl-Haadi]

No, I am saying some people refer to native Australians as black. And what do you mean by their hair tells a different story.

I am sorry I have no knowledge, but that doesn't change what I am saying. I would still like to know what you think it means to be black.

You said you read my post but yet you keep asking the same question . What you read what I meant , I can't post it over , Black are not born with straight thin hair unless they are mix .

Original man Nuwbuns also known as Olmec Nasi - Black seed

Asiatic Chines Mongoloid Hsu-Shen / Hexian Namu-Yellow seed

Mexions Aztecs and the likes Native americans / Ab -originals

Caucasian mankind - or iginal red seed or white eace

Binni - colorless ghost .

 

[Asante]

He is continuing to argue that the Hebrew and Jesus were black, - even though he has been shown that this is inaccurate, and that he is also mistranslating texts.

*

Well...I'm in agreement with him that the original Hebrews and their true contemporaries are black. Have you ever heard of the Lemba?

 

[Asante]

Cheers! It's sad when people start saying "being black is a myth" or trying to associate Egypt more with the middle east than with Africa when it is an African country, and only considered middle east today because of cultural reasons. But if I said another group of Africans were black no one would come to me with "black is a myth" and continuing to try and debate what being black is.

Yes the semantics about "what is black" is never in question when we are talking about lesser know African civilizations (Mali, Kongo, Zimbabwe, Nubia, Axum, Songhai, Ghana ect). The label black only become "problematic" when you start to get into the mighty ancient Egypt, even it's been proven that they were physically and genetically identical to to their Sudanese neighbors to the south. In fact the earliest pre-Dynastic Egyptians are now finally confirmed to be descended from Nubians. It was nothing more then a slightly northward migration of the allusive "A-group Nubians" into the adjacent Upper Egypt.

It's always amusing to watch them perform mental gymnastics to avoid conceding to that point.

 

[Shermana]

Well...I'm in agreement with him that the original Hebrews and their true contemporaries are black. Have you ever heard of the Lemba?

The Lemba are very interesting, especially considering the "Khazar" Ashkenazis share DNA links with them, but I believe they are more so the result of Olive-skinned Mediteranean Hebrews who traveled Southward, I'm guessing they are from Dan.

 

[Asante]

The Lemba are very interesting, especially considering the "Khazar" Ashkenazis share DNA links with them,

The even have more of the cohen modal haplotype (supposed signature Jewish marker) then the general Israeli population. Why is that?

but I believe they are more so the result of Olive-skinned Mediteranean Hebrews who traveled Southward, I'm guessing they are rom Dan.

Why is it so imperative for some people baselessly make the assumption that the default color in these discussions is a shade of white?

[youtube]RYrQvm_llBY[/youtube]

The mans state's that them the Lemba in their black skin are the original Hebrews. He has no reason to lie. He says that the rest of the Hebrews are scattered all over.

 

[Shermana]

Simple question, do you believe the Lemba are the ONLY true Hebrew-Israelites? Are all the Mizrahis and Sephardics not true Jews? You can only play the "Khazar" game so much, and Ashkenazis aren't even the majority in Israel. Did you notice that he said he's convinced that Lemba ancestors "Come from the Middle East"? Do you think Black populations were really a dominant presence in the Middle East? I'm not sure you quite understand what he said. When he says "We are original Hebrews", that's totally accurate, they DO come from the Original Hebrews. You however want to make this a racial issue by distorting what he said. He's not saying "The Original Hebrews were black skinned like us and the White skinned Jews are not Jews". He's saying "We are descended from the Original Hebrews". That's all. If anything his testimony agrees with what I'm saying instead. I agree with his claims 100%. You simply don't understand what he's saying.

The fact that they don't mix milk and meat is a likely product of coming from the pre or proto Talmudic Rabbis in terms of their culture, as this was most probably a later development, so unless Rabbinic missionaries came down to teach them this, it is likely a product of the culture of Diaspora-era Hebrew culture.

As for why they carry more instances of the Cohen marker, that has nothing to do with them being the "Original" Jews, that just means they had a greater pool of carriers within the population of that marker. They are just as Israelite and Hebrew as the rest of us, but I believe it is from the result of Hebrew paternal descent with the Native population. And Paternal descent is how it originally was counted, not Maternal as the Rabbis changed it to be later.

Do you honestly think an all-black population could end up looking as White as the Ashkenazis who carry the markers? Olive skin is not a Shade of White by the way. If anything, White is more of a shade of Olive Skin. European Whites likely descended largely from Iranian Scythians.

 

[Curious George]

Yes the semantics about "what is black" is never in question when we are talking about lesser know African civilizations (Mali, Kongo, Zimbabwe, Nubia, Axum, Songhai, Ghana ect). The label black only become "problematic" when you start to get into the mighty ancient Egypt, even it's been proven that they were physically and genetically identical to to their Sudanese neighbors to the south. In fact the earliest pre-Dynastic Egyptians are now finally confirmed to be descended from Nubians. It was nothing more then a slightly northward migration of the allusive "A-group Nubians" into the adjacent Upper Egypt.

It's always amusing to watch them perform mental gymnastics to avoid conceding to that point.

I am not trying to play semantics over "what is black" I am trying to understand exactly what you are saying here. I am interested in your opinion. And I would be genuinely curious regardless of which geographic location.

I am not nor have I tried to argue any of your points. I have not disputed what you have said. Rather, I have asked questions, given the definition I use, and pointed to the fact that if we are using the definition which mainstream society associates with black then the many more people qualify as black than simply people of Africa. I just don't understand why it is so hard to pin down. If you are making an assertion that someone is black, then you should be able to tell me what that means. If you cannot tell me what that means then how can you know a person or group of people were or are "black."

 

[Curious George]

You said you read my post but yet you keep asking the same question . What you read what I meant , I can't post it over , Black are not born with straight thin hair unless they are mix .

Original man Nuwbuns also known as Olmec Nasi - Black seed

Asiatic Chines Mongoloid Hsu-Shen / Hexian Namu-Yellow seed

Mexions Aztecs and the likes Native americans / Ab -originals

Caucasian mankind - or iginal red seed or white eace

Binni - colorless ghost .

I do not understand the "seed" portion of your post. And many aborigines do not have thin hair, many have the same phenotypes as those which one can see expressed in African tribes.

 

[MusaaEl-Haadi]

I do not understand the "seed" portion of your post. And many aborigines do not have thin hair, many have the same phenotypes as those which one can see expressed in African tribes.

Seed mean like one Sister , Brother , Mother , Father , Family Tree ,

And many aborigines do not have thin hair, < I can accept that , Meaning I Know this It'a call trying tying into the vine .

The Five Books of Moses Genesis 3 ; 15 , States , And I Quote ; And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; It shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel."< K.J.V.

Before someone try's to change my words around , as being races , When they're not
Their few people here that have a problem with Nubian's , Black's . History & Cultures Etc Etc . The Person who started this post has been Ban, Because of what he Believe , Go back at the beginning and see how few Attack , Insulted this person . Because he ask the question . Why can't some people accept that the Israelites were black? .

When it's a know fact that Yashu'a , Jesus Christ and the Nubian's , Black's was the original Israelites . This according to the Bible . Which this person who created this post nor did I Write the Bible . The key to overstanding the Scriptures is the Language . Now they're trying to say Egyptian were not Black , When its a know facts that they original Egyptian were Nubian / Black . Those people who are cliaming to be Egyptian are not the original Egyptian .

They're Mixed Greeks , Turks , Mulattos . If the European , Greeks , Turks , were the original Egyptian then why the Italians and other European Re-painting and Reconstructing the faces of the Ancient Egyptian statues and paintings on the wall , This is Distortion is the same thing they did centuries ago . That why The Sphinx and the many temples and pyramids of Nubia and Egypt are so disfigured . It like anything they can't cliam they take lololol.

The game thats being play here is , If your not following their school of thought , Scholar , Theologian Etc Etc , Your wrong and they're right . It have nothing to do with the ( Truth , Facts ) .

 

[Asante]

Simple question, do you believe the Lemba are the ONLY true Hebrew-Israelites?

Why are you asking this question when in the very last sentence in the post that you are responding to I referenced the words of the Lemba klan leader who makes mention that other Hebrews fled all over?

Are all the Mizrahis and Sephardics not true Jews?

Read this:

A striking finding from our studyis the consistent detection of 3&#8211;5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in the 8 diverse Jewish groups we studied, Ashkenazis (from northern Europe), Sephardis (from Italy, Turkey and Greece), and Mizrahis (from Syria, Iran and Iraq). We estimate that the average date of the mixture of 72 generations (~2,000 years assuming 29 years per generation [30]) is older than that in Southern Europeans or other Levantines. The point estimates over all 8 populations are between 1,600&#8211;3,400 years ago, but with largely overlapping confidence intervals. It is intriguing that the Mizrahi Irani and Iraqi Jews&#8212;who are thought to descend at least in part from Jews who were exiled to Babylon about 2,600 years ago [39], [40]&#8212;share the signal of African admixture...This pattern has not been detected in previous analyses of mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome data [7], and although it can be CLEARLY seen when re-examining published results of STRUCTURE-like analyses of autosomal data, it was not highlighted in those studies, or shown to unambiguously reflect sub-Saharan African admixture [15], [38]

So African admixture is a common link between the contemporary Jewish populations as well hmmm. The little links that the Ashkenazi Jews do have to ancient Palestine are through a Sub Saharan African lineage from over 2,000 years ago WOOOW! Interesting, perhaps that would explain the Jew fro. The Sub Saharan African lineage is also higher in non Ashkenazi Jews.

Did you notice that he said he's convinced that Lemba ancestors "Come from the Middle East"? Do you think Black populations were really a dominant presence in the Middle East?

You were already presented with anthropological evidence the remains in ancient Israel were very similar to black African populations (southern Egyptians). Now above you have been presented with genetic evidence which indicates that the link tying together "Jewish" populations is in fact African.

I'm not sure you quite understand what he said. When he says "We are original Hebrews", that's totally accurate, they DO come from the Original Hebrews.

No YOU made it a racial argument when you baselessly asserted that the skin color of the Lemba's Hebrew ancestors were "olive skinned" (black olive maybe). Do these people look like they have ancestry from any other people who aren't black?

Where is the Jewish ancestral physical traits that one would expect to see if they had some sort of remnant from the original Hebrews who were "olive skinned" white people as you claim? Some earlier racist anthropologist trying to discern their claims likely tried to attribute this to the Lemba's oral tradition, but you will never hear that come out of a Lemba's mouth.

On the other hand doesn't it make much more sense that the traces of black ancestry in modern day Jews is the source of the famed "JEW FRO":

NOT VISA VERSA.

As for why they carry more instances of the Cohen marker, that has nothing to do with them being the "Original" Jews, that just means they had a greater pool of carriers within the population of that marker.

No that scenario lacks common sense! If according to you the Lemba are just a subset of a generally white or white looking ancient Hebrew population who migrated into another region of the Earth, then how on Earth would that subset be able to not only RETAIN but have MORE of the marker then the core population that it broke off from? It indicates that this black African population theoretically bears a closer genetic resemblance to the original Hebrew population then others.

Do you honestly think an all-black population could end up looking as White as the Ashkenazis

The Ashkensazi are overwhelmingly of Eastern European origin:

In &#8220;The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses,&#8221; published in December in the online journal Genome Biology and Evolution, Elhaik says he has proved that Ashkenazi Jews&#8217; roots lie in the Caucasus &#8212; a region at the border of Europe and Asia that lies between the Black and Caspian seas &#8212; not in the Middle East. They are descendants, he argues, of the Khazars, a Turkic people who lived in one of the largest medieval states in Eurasia and then migrated to Eastern Europe in the 12th and 13th centuries. Ashkenazi genes, Elhaik added, are far more heterogeneous than Ostrer and other proponents of the Rhineland Hypothesis believe. Elhaik did find a Middle Eastern genetic marker in DNA from Jews, but, he says, it could be from Iran, not ancient Judea.


Elhaik writes that the Khazars converted to Judaism in the eighth century, although many historians believe that only royalty and some members of the aristocracy converted. But widespread conversion by the Khazars is the only way to explain the ballooning of the European Jewish population to 8 million at the beginning of the 20th century from its tiny base in the Middle Ages, Elhaik says.

link

This is interesting! This recent study does not mention the findings of Sub Saharan African genetic components in segments of the Ashkenazi population (since this segment is according to this study are very "heterogeneous") which have been found in older studies (not including the 2013 study from above). More then likely those with the Sub Saharan African components are those who descend from the nobles of the Khazar kingdom who had interaction with original black Hebrews. The ballooning of the population is likely as the study above suggest the result of mass conversion to the region as opposed to an impossible scenario of high births.

 

[Asante]

I am not trying to play semantics over "what is black" I am trying to understand exactly what you are saying here. I am interested in your opinion. And I would be genuinely curious regardless of which geographic location.

The term has a varying definition (like white can). In the U.S. the term is most often restricted to those who are dark skinned and are of African ancestral origin. That's not to say that an aboriginal Australian would not be defined as black in the U.S. either.

If one of these men had gone missing or committed a crime in the U.S. witnesses ignorant of their ancestry would likely describe them as black or a slight variation of black due to the somewhat of a hair deviation (tends to be straighter or even bleach blond in some cases).

The places where the term "black" can be mistranslated to are those places who are either racially or ethnically homogenous or have limited to no interaction with people who are deemed black in the U.S./western world. For example some people like to obfuscate the use of the word black by the Greeks since that is has they described the great ancient Egyptians. They might say that the word black was only in reference to people who were slightly darker then their tawny skin color (since they themselves had African blood), but forget the fact that the Greeks were in constant contact with the "Aethiopians" (Sudanese Nubians) who are some of the darkest skinned people on Earth. The Greeks pointed out clearly the phenotype, culture and religion of the Egyptians and the "Aethiopians" formed a continuum which began in Aethiopia (Sudan) in accordance with Aethiopian and Egyptian history which was taught to them.

 

[metis]

Most of the Ashkenazim migrated from eretz Israel into Europe mostly after 70 c.e. and they were Semitic since genetically we're very closely related to Palestinians/Syrians/Lebanese. However, the phenotype of genes just do not entirely follow the genotypes since environmental factors can trigger different effects.

 

[MusaaEl-Haadi]

Why are you asking this question when in the very last sentence in the post that you are responding to I referenced the words of the Lemba klan leader who makes mention that other Hebrews fled all over?

Read this:

So African admixture is a common link between the contemporary Jewish populations as well hmmm. The little links that the Ashkenazi Jews do have to ancient Palestine are through a Sub Saharan African lineage from over 2,000 years ago WOOOW! Interesting, perhaps that would explain the Jew fro. The Sub Saharan African lineage is also higher in non Ashkenazi Jews.

You were already presented with anthropological evidence the remains in ancient Israel were very similar to black African populations (southern Egyptians). Now above you have been presented with genetic evidence which indicates that the link tying together "Jewish" populations is in fact African.

No YOU made it a racial argument when you baselessly asserted that the skin color of the Lemba's Hebrew ancestors were "olive skinned" (black olive maybe). Do these people look like they have ancestry from any other people who aren't black?

Where is the Jewish ancestral physical traits that one would expect to see if they had some sort of remnant from the original Hebrews who were "olive skinned" white people as you claim? Some earlier racist anthropologist trying to discern their claims likely tried to attribute this to the Lemba's oral tradition, but you will never hear that come out of a Lemba's mouth.

On the other hand doesn't it make much more sense that the traces of black ancestry in modern day Jews is the source of the famed "JEW FRO":

NOT VISA VERSA.

No that scenario lacks common sense! If according to you the Lemba are just a subset of a generally white or white looking ancient Hebrew population who migrated into another region of the Earth, then how on Earth would that subset be able to not only RETAIN but have MORE of the marker then the core population that it broke off from? It indicates that this black African population theoretically bears a closer genetic resemblance to the original Hebrew population then others.

The Ashkensazi are overwhelmingly of Eastern European origin:

link

This is interesting! This recent study does not mention the findings of Sub Saharan African genetic components in segments of the Ashkenazi population (since this segment is according to this study are very "heterogeneous") which have been found in older studies (not including the 2013 study from above). More then likely those with the Sub Saharan African components are those who descend from the nobles of the Khazar kingdom who had interaction with original black Hebrews. The ballooning of the population is likely as the study above suggest the result of mass conversion to the region as opposed to an impossible scenario of high births.

Picture's speak Volume's doesn't it good one Asante

 

[Asante]

Deleted

 

[Asante]

Most of the Ashkenazim migrated from eretz Israel into Europe mostly after 70 c.e. and they were Semitic since genetically we're very closely related to Palestinians/Syrians/Lebanese.

But the study just presented to you all shows that Ashkenazi Jews have a genetic affinity indicating an origin in or around the Caucus mountains, and that this genetic tie with Middle Easterners likely could have come from more recent historical events.

However, the phenotype of genes just do not entirely follow the genotypes since environmental factors can trigger different effects.

Very true. Just look at the Cameroonians (West Africans) who have the highest frequencies of R1b on Earth:

(Some Cameroonians are almost 100% R1b)

R1b is often characterized as THE European hapologroup because of it's CURRENT distribution, but recent finds in undiscovered Africa has shaken those perceptions to the foundation. Recent studies now suggest a R1b origin in Sub Saharan West Africa and a northward migration into North Africa and then into Europe. So saying that the Lemba have a "Middle Eastern" genetic marker (haplogroup J) does not in anyway challenge the argument that their original Hebrew ancestors were black just like them.