why can't we have a relationship with other men?

[-Peacemaker-]

What do you suggest that homosexuals do about their homosexuality, including monogamous homosexuals?

FRom wat I can see, this is really what the whole debate boils down to which is certain people have desires that they fear will lead to starvation and misery if they go unmet. The Christian answer is: trust that God has a better way.

 

[Agnostic75]

Do you realize that some of the info these websites often use to argue that homosexuality is harmful come from sources that would be considered "pro-gay"? The stuff on promiscuity especially.

Do you realize that I just showed you evidence where an opponent of homosexuality admitted that lesbians are slightly more faithful than heterosexual women are, and that I told you that the CDC says that 80% of homosexuals do not have HIV, and that I can provide documented evidence that nowhere near the majority of homosexuals are alcoholics, and that I can provide documented evidence that the vast majority of homosexuals are not pedophiles? We need to take one issue at a time, but for some reason, you do not want to get down to discussing specific issues. Please pick one issue, let's discuss it, and then discuss another issue. How about let's start by discussing promiscuity among lesbians, and what you recommend that monogamous lesbians do about their sexual identity?

The following organizations support homosexuals, and believe that they should be allow to adopt children:

American Psychiatric Association
American Psychological Association
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Medical Association
American Academy of Family Physicians
American Anthropology Association
American Sociological Association

Would you like to claim that all of those associations are run by evil, uneducated, uninformed people who do not know how to evaluate research as well as you do? If so, how many people will believe you?

Openly homosexual people are allowed to serve in the militaries of over 20 countries, including Britain, and Israel. How is it that most of those homosexual military personnel are conducting their jobs admirably? How is it that the recent Prime Minister of Iceland was an open lesbian, and hardly anyone in Iceland paid any attention to her sexual identity? How is it that the Prime Minister of Ontario is an open lesbian, and is doing her job admirably, as well as some U.S. Congressmen, and one U.S. senator who is an open lesbian? According to your implications, most homosexuals are very messed up, but millions of people all over the world know homosexuals who are not very messed up. Something is fishy, including the fact that no major medical association criticizes homosexuals like you do.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

In case you're not aware, .com websites are generally bad for research, as they are designed for commercial purposes or general usage. They are not going to contain information that is trustworthy. Therefore, I have no reason to take this article any more seriously than ones promoting the Ancient Astronaut theory. One major red flag is the fact that it says "studies show such and such", without citing which studies, by whom, whether they were peer-reviewed or not, etc. Therefore, these figures very well could be made up.

Do you have anything that's from a .edu or .gov website?

From what I can see, this represents the usual "refutation" of the stuff often cited by those who argue homosexual behavior is wrong. "It's too old", "not scientific enough" (even if it is a pro-gay source), "you found it on a religious website", "it's not the right domain" etc. Let's cut through the bs. If even a shred of the data usually cited contains relevance/truth then it paints a disturbing picture of this behavior.

 

[Agnostic75]

If even a fraction of the research that is usually cited by those who oppose homosexual behavior contains just a shred of relevance/truth then it paints a frightening picture of this behavior.

There is not anything that is frightening about the millions of homosexuals who are monogamous, are not alcoholics, are not pedophiles, and do not have HIV. Don't you oppose all homosexuals, including those who are healthy, happy, and monogamous?

Please provide documented evidence that the majority of homosexuals have any serious medical problem?

Please provide documented evidence that lesbians are very promiscuous.

Not old evidence, but evidence within the past 10 years.

 

[Straw Dog]

Whoa, don't shoot!

From what I can see, this represents the usual "refutation" of the stuff often cited by those who argure this behavior is wrong. "It's too old", "not scientific enough" (even if it is a pro-gay source), "you found it on a religious website", "it's not the right domain" etc. Let's cut through the bs. If even a shred of the data usually cited contains relevance/truth then it paints a disturbing picture of this behavior.

For a peacemaker, you sure seem hellbent on alienating folks.

 

[Agnostic75]

From what I can see, this represents the usual "refutation" of the stuff often cited by those who argue homosexual behavior is wrong. "It's too old", "not scientific enough" (even if it is a pro-gay source), "you found it on a religious website", "it's not the right domain" etc. Let's cut through the bs. If even a shred of the data usually cited contains relevance/truth then it paints a disturbing picture of this behavior.

In order to get anywhere, you are going to have to be a lot more specific than that. What pro-gay source says that lesbians are very promiscuous? Obviously, none. What pro-gay source says that the majority of homosexuals are alcoholics, or pedophiles, or have HIV? Obviously, none. What pro-gay source says that the majority of homosexuals have any serious medical problem? Obviously, none.

A shred of data will obviously not be acceptable. An example is that, hypothetically, it would matter a great deal if 10% of homosexuals are alcoholics instead of 30%.

In addition, statistics can be misleading. If, hypothetically, research showed that 25% of homosexuals in a study were alcoholics, and that 10% of heterosexuals were alcoholics, it is important to note that only about 15% of homosexuals were alcoholics "because" they were homosexuals since 10% of the homosexuals would still have been alcoholics if they had been heterosexuals. Obviously, there is a big difference between 25%, and 15%, but many people would be mislead by the 25% statistic.

You still need to provide reasonable alternatives for homosexuals, including the many monogamous homosexuals.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Please provide documented evidence that the majority of homosexuals have any serious medical problem?

Please provide documented evidence that lesbians are very promiscuous.

Not old evidence, but evidence within the past 10 years.

The numbers I've seen suggest exponentially higher rates of certain afflictions and/or behaviors like alcoholism, depression, pedophilia, etc. I'm not sure anyone ever claimed they represent a majority of the cases. Even if that's the case, does it still fail to shed some light on the fruit of this behavior? I'd also admit that the majority of the studies I've seen were conducted between 1980 and the year 2000. Again, even if that's the case, and even if some of the numbers have changed from that time, have they changed so much that we can learn nothing about the fruit of this behavior from them? You see, my impression of those who compile this stuff (often Christian websites) is that they're trying to paint a general picture of the fruit of this behavior, not necessarily win an academic argument on the exact figures.

 

[Agnostic75]

The numbers I've seen suggest exponentially higher rates of certain afflictions and/or behaviors like alcoholism, depression, pedophilia, etc. I'm not sure anyone ever claimed they represent a majority of the cases. Even if that's the case, does it still fail to shed some light on the fruit of this behavior? I'd also admit that the majority of the studies I've seen were conducted between 1980 and the year 2000. Again, even if that's the case, and even if some of the numbers have changed from that time, have they changed so much that we can learn nothing about the fruit of this behavior from them? You see, my impression of those who compile this stuff (often Christian websites) is that they're trying to paint a general picture of the fruit of this behavior, not necessarily win an academic argument on the exact figures.

Well, perhaps we are finally beginning to get somewhere. Let's hope so. I agree that homosexuals generally have more medical problems than heterosexuals do. However, since the majority of homosexuals do not have any serious medical problem, and are doing just fine, where does that leave us? What is your point? What do you suggest be done about the medical problems that homosexuals have?

You should already know that I am well aware of conservative Christian theological arguments against homosexuality, but that is not what I have been mostly debating with 1robin. We have mostly been debating his recommended solution to the problem, which is abstinence for life, even for monogamous homosexuals. That is ridiculous. He said that he had religious, and secular arguments, but in fact he only has religious arguments.

You cannot expect non-religious homosexuals to follow biblical teachings.

I object to any attempts to criticize all homosexuals, or all of any group of people. That is bigotry.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I'm not sure there is a reasonable solution for people who suffer from same sex attraction apart from the power of God. To me the sex drive is too powerful to manage on one's own strength. I've seen enough in my life to say that I confidently believe that by the power of God people can do anything, even live celebate but apart from him they can do nothing.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I'm not sure there is a reasonable solution for people who suffer from same sex attraction apart from the power of God.

People don't suffer from same-sex attraction.

Do you suffer from heterosexual attraction?

 

[Agnostic75]

I don't think there is a reasonable solution for people who suffer from same sex attraction apart from the power of God. To me the sex drive is too powerful to manage on one's own strength. I've seen enough in my life to say that I confidently believe that by the power of God people can do anything, even live celibate but apart from him they can do nothing.

Does that mean that from a secular perspective, you cannot find anything wrong with homosexuals who are monogamous, healthy, and happy?

What you said is a good deal better than anything that 1robin has said in this thread. Attacking, and demeaning homosexuals is always a losing proposition, especially with the growing acceptance that they have in many countries.

As far as your religious arguments are concerned, I do not believe that any moral God would oppose monogamous, healthy homosexuals. Everything that the Bible says does not automatically mean that God inspired and preserved every single verse free of errors. Anyway, I am not going to spend weeks, months, or years debating religion. I am mostly interested in discussing secular arguments against homosexuality. Of course, there are not any valid ones that apply to all homosexuals, and you said that you know how difficult it is to change.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

People don't suffer from same-sex attraction.

Do you suffer from heterosexual attraction?

when you figure out how to make a baby by sticking a penis in an anus I will agree with you. I know it's often forgotten in this culture but those organs between our legs aren't just toys. They actually have a function.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Does that mean that from a secular perspective, you cannot find anything wrong with homosexuals who are monogamous, healthy, and happy?
.

No, only that I believe there is no reasonable solution with which to deal with what they deal with. Essentially I'm saying I believe it is hopeless apart from the power of God. Of course, I believe that finding our true purpose in this world is hopeless apart from what made us. In this way, the principle applies to everybody.

 

[Agnostic75]

No, only that there is no reasonable solution with which to deal with what they deal with. Essentially I'm saying I believe it is hopeless apart from the power of God. Of course, I believe that finding our true purpose in this world is hopeless apart from what made us. In this way, the principle applies to everybody.

Well, I thank you that at least we got that far, which is much farther than I got with 1robin.

It seems that all of a sudden you became more peaceful, pleasant, and reasonable. That is a good thing, and it is a much better representation of what Christianity is supposed to be.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

when you figure out how to make a baby by sticking a penis in an anus I will agree with you. I know it's often forgotten in this culture but those organs between our legs aren't just toys. They actually have a function.

I see. So you consider masturbation a sin against God also -- since it can't produce babies?

Using contraception is a sin against God -- since sex should only be used for making babies?

Do you really believe and follow that kind of thinking?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Well, I thank you that at least we got that far, which is much farther than I got with 1robin.

It seems that all of a sudden you became more peaceful, pleasant, and reasonable. That is a good thing, and it is a much better representation of what Christianity is supposed to be.

Thanks. I'm a mixed bag, I know that. I working on it though. At the very least I hope I take 2 steps forward for every one step back.

 

[Agnostic75]

All bonobo monkeys are bi-sexual. Why did God make them that way?

Experts have said that bonobo monkeys derive a number of benefits from their bi-sexuality.

Would bonobo monkeys have any need of giving up their bi-sexuality? I do not think so.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I see. So you consider masturbation a sin against God also -- since it can't produce babies?

Using contraception is a sin against God -- since sex should only be used for making babies?

Do you really believe and follow that kind of thinking?

Most people that masturbate at least wish they were using that organ for which it was made for and would be if they had the option. They also remain unsatisfied when they're finished.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Most people that masturbate at least wish they were using that organ for which it was made for and would be if they had the option. They also remain unsatisfied when they're finished.

Umm... you might be talking to the wrong masturbaters. Many are untrained in the art.

Anyway, how about contraception? It is all about having sex for non-procreational purposes, like homosexuals do. Same with postmenopausal women. Should they, like gays, stop having sex since their sex cannot produce offspring?

Or perhaps you'd like to retract your argument that homosexuals are wrong because their sexual activity can't produce children?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Umm... you might be talking to the wrong masturbaters. Many are untrained in the art.

Anyway, how about contraception? It is all about having sex for non-procreational purposes, like homosexuals do. Same with postmenopausal women. Should they, like gays, stop having sex since their sex cannot produce offspring?

Or perhaps you'd like to retract your argument that homosexuals are wrong because their sexual activity can't produce children?

I was talking about inclinations/desires. I don't know anyone that feels sexual attraction toward their own hands or to some plastic toy.