• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

why can't we have a relationship with other men?

payak

Active Member
I never said they should be persecuted, I never even said they should not do it.

But you all just proved my point with the defensive posts, I am not allowed an opinion on the matter, that is anger because I don't share your views on gays.

Act like bonobo monkeys, it does not hurt me or anyone, but do not force someone to like it.

If a celebrity was to express dislike of homosexuality on tv, they would get shredded for giving an honest opinion, so some people are forced to lie.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I never said they should be persecuted, I never even said they should not do it.

But you all just proved my point with the defensive posts, I am not allowed an opinion on the matter, that is anger because I don't share your views on gays.

Act like bonobo monkeys, it does not hurt me or anyone, but do not force someone to like it.

If a celebrity was to express dislike of homosexuality on tv, they would get shredded for giving an honest opinion, so some people are forced to lie.
Acting like monkeys hurts millions, even those that do not practice the behavior, and costs billions.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
You have said that any deaths at all are not worth the risk, so you have refuted you own argument. Your primary context from the beginning of this thread regarding your secular arguments against homosexuality has been risk, and millions of heterosexuals in the U.S. alone are at risk. You said that heterosexuals need to have sex in order to maintain that population. I adequately refuted that argument.
No I didn't. I have typed until my fingers hurt that is not worth the risk given the lack of compensating gains. I said no life is worth the risk if lust is the only justification. I only have two main points and you seem to forget both in every other post.


In your post #304, you said:

"I will not comment further on this it has made me sick. I have never seen more lewd and grotesque displays than at a gay parade. Many are not contempt to quietly practice it they wish to rebelliously flaunt it and do so in disgusting ways. Since there are over 3 million sites that contain the problems of homosexuality I can't fathom why the question was asked."

A gay parade has nothing to do with medical problems.
Probably not but it has to do with the issues I must discuss to cover the subject and the grotesqueness of them.

Quite obviously, it is irrelevant how many websites discuss the problems of homosexuality, but how reliable they are, what percentage of all homosexuals have a particular problem, and what options homosexuals have. Much of your post #304 is false, misleading, or poorly documented.
I have no idea what is in that post and have consolidated my entire arguments into two points that are true even if everything in that post was wrong. I have told you to chunk anything you honestly thought was wrong in that long ago post and my points would still be true so it is irrelevant.

It is important to note that some research only deals with the percentages of homosexuals who have medical problems as compared with the percentages of heterosexuals who have medical problems, not with what percentages of all homosexuals, and heterosexuals have medical problems. If you wish, I can give you some examples of that misleading tactic in your post #304. How many statistics do you know of that deal with percentages of all homosexuals? "Er, uh......., not very many."

You often believe only what you want to believe, and there is no way that you checked out most of the sources in your post #304 in order to compare them with other sources. I just read that post again, and it is even worse than I thought it was. Most of it is trash. It is no wonder that you are so ignorant regarding the health of the general homosexual population.
You have repeatedly condemned even my suspicions concerning data accuracy and now your condemning data on the same basis.

All that it takes to have 1.4 million healthy homosexuals in the world is 1% of them, and that is a given. It is a fact that the vast majority of homosexuals are not alcoholics, are not drug abusers, are not murderers, are not pedophiles, and do not have HIV, or AIDS.
And all that it takes to have far more than 1.4 billion healthy homosexuals (if there are such a thing) is to stop practicing it.

Just so you understand my position, I agree with you, and with most experts, who say that homosexuals generally have more medical problems than heterosexuals do. I disagree with you about the percentages of homosexuals who have some particular medical problems.
I have provided very little in the way of stats so I have no idea how they could be wrong but even if they were you have admitted the only thing necessary to make my main contentions valid.

You do not have to discuss your post #304 since anyone who is interested can read it if they want to. Any qualified expert would immediately know that much that post is false, misleading, or poorly documented.
I tell you what you may delete that post if you wish. It will not change a thing. I doubt it is significantly in error but it would make no difference if it was.

But from a secular, and practical perspective, no behavior is wrong if there are not any better solutions. No solutions are needed for at least 1.4 million homosexuals.
There are better solution. Don't do it.

That is a ridiculous comparison. When a murder is committed, there is always an injured party. When homosexuals have safe sex, there is often not an injured part.
You say this every time and it makes no difference every time. Just to humor you and avoid wasting more time let me change it to attempted murder.


That is another ridiculous argument. There is obviously no comparison that can be made between practicing abstinence for a year or two, and practicing it for decades.
The heck there can't. I know of no reason there would be any additional problems but here certainly would be not prohibitive problems. This is more rationalization.

In addition, when you practiced abstinence, you knew that after a year or so, you would be able to enjoy having sex again.
No I didn't.


There is little doubt that eventually, you would have become frustrated with practicing abstinence.
As I pointed out it got increasingly easier not harder. The first few weeks were the hard part. Eventually it became a non-issue.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I never said they should be persecuted, I never even said they should not do it.
If I told you that I found interracial relationships to be "disgusting" and "unnatural", regardless of whether or not I wish for interracial couples to be persecuted in any way, you would still rightly accuse me of holding views that are bigoted.

But you all just proved my point with the defensive posts, I am not allowed an opinion on the matter, that is anger because I don't share your views on gays.
You're allowed your opinion, and we are allowed our opinion of your opinion. And, in my opinion, your opinion is ill-conceived, narrow-minded, ignorant and verging on bigoted.

Act like bonobo monkeys, it does not hurt me or anyone, but do not force someone to like it.
Nobody is "forcing" anything. There's a difference between forcing an opinion and disliking one, and yours is disliked. Nobody is forcing tolerance on you - but we are exercising our right to call your opinion wrong and give our reasons why it is so.

If a celebrity was to express dislike of homosexuality on tv, they would get shredded for giving an honest opinion, so some people are forced to lie.
And the reason they would be shredded is because that person is openly expressing bigotry. It's the same thing that happens when a celebrity expresses any such opinion.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
By that logic we should legalize bestiality, marriage to rocks and trees, maybe give planets and polar bears spousal rights.

So you don't recognize any difference between two consenting adults who happen to be of the same gender, and animals, rocks, trees, planets or polar bears?

Honestly, that's the dumbest argument I've ever heard.
 
Last edited:

payak

Active Member
I'm exercing my rights to dislike it, but I don't expect them to not have gay relationships.

At least we don't have to compare ourselves with monkeys to justify our behaviour to ourselves.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I'm exercing my rights to dislike it, but I don't expect them to not have gay relationships.
And I'm exercising my right to dislike your opinion. You can't start using freedom of speech as a defense against freedom of speech.

At least we don't have to compare ourselves with monkeys to justify our behaviour to ourselves.
Excuse me? What on earth are you talking about?
 

payak

Active Member
And I'm exercising my right to dislike your opinion. You can't start using freedom of speech as a defense against freedom of speech.


Excuse me? What on earth are you talking about?

What do you think in talking about, every second post talks about bonobo monkeys, hardly something you would think people would compare themselves with.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
If I told you that I found interracial relationships to be "disgusting" and "unnatural", regardless of whether or not I wish for interracial couples to be persecuted in any way, you would still rightly accuse me of holding views that are bigoted.
Not if you produced data that proved interracial relationships produce massive suffering without any justifying positive effects. Race is something we are, sex is something we do, anyway. I would not care if you held that view anyway as I am not PC but it would fit the descriptor of bigotry but would not be actually wrong unless God existed in the first place. Evolution has never produced anything equal. Only God has or could.


You're allowed your opinion, and we are allowed our opinion of your opinion. And, in my opinion, your opinion is ill-conceived, narrow-minded, ignorant and verging on bigoted.
If you think the gratification of lust merits the suffering of millions (even those that do not practice the behavior) and costs the same billions of dollars that is your problem not another's.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
What do you think in talking about, every second post talks about bonobo monkeys, hardly something you would think people would compare themselves with.

Again, what are you talking about? Just because people mention monkeys you think that means they comparing themselves to them to "justify their behavior to themselves"? That's ignorant nonsense. They bring up the example as a specific response to the claim that homosexuality is "unnatural" - since it is practiced in the animal world, it is not "unnatural". It has nothing to do with "justifying" anything to anyone. The fact that you are distorting that argument to paint some image of homosexuals "comparing themselves to animals in order to justify their behavior to themselves" is sickening and dishonest. You should be ashamed.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
So you don't recognize any difference between two consenting adults who happen to be of the same gender, and animals, rocks, trees, planets or polar bears?
I am the only one who has a view that includes reasons for the line being drawn, beyond that, on convenience and preference. I was using your standards to show their absurdity not mine.

Honestly, that's the dumbest argument I've ever heard.
Then I would have thought you could have easily produced even a bad argument to illustrate this. Of course the argument was absurd. It was based on the absurd criteria used in the statement by someone from your side.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I am the only one who has a view that includes reasons for the line being drawn, beyond that, on convenience and preference. I was using your standards to show their absurdity not mine.
Except you weren't using "my standards" at all. I was illustrating that Payak's attitude towards homosexuals today is reflective of attitudes towards interracial relationships a hundred years ago, thus illustrating that the opinion held is one of narrow-minded, backwards thinking intolerance. You failed to grasp this, and instead constructed a ludicrous straw man.

Then I would have thought you could have easily produced even a bad argument to illustrate this. Of course the argument was absurd. It was based on the absurd criteria used in the statement by someone from your side.
What criteria? Which side? Do you or do you not understand that your comparison was absurd or not?
 

payak

Active Member
My wifes Asian, their certainly are people out their who don't like it, that's their right I cannot tell them they are wrong for the way they feel.

They would be wrong however to ask me to change, I don't like homosexuality but I would not ask them or want them to change as that's what gloats their boat.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
My wifes Asian, their certainly are people out their who don't like it, that's their right I cannot tell them they are wrong for the way they feel.
Actually, yes you can, and I'd be amazed if someone told you that your marriage is "disgusting" and "unnatural" and it didn't cause any objection from you. Whether you voice it or not, you clearly disagree with those people. So, why is it that when voicing your opposition to homosexuality it is courageous, but suddenly you not voicing your opposition to people who are directly insulting you and the nature of your marriage isn't cowardice? Look at what you said earlier:

"If a celebrity was to express dislike of homosexuality on tv, they would get shredded for giving an honest opinion, so some people are forced to lie."

You are essentially painting outward opinions as honesty, and yet suddenly - when it comes to a subject that isn't homosexuality - you keeping quiet suddenly becomes the right course of action. You know it isn't, and you know that you disagree with people who think interracial marriage is "abnormal", and if you wouldn't call those people out on it, that - by your own argument above - makes you a liar.

They would be wrong however to ask me to change, I don't like homosexuality but I would not ask them or want them to change as that's what gloats their boat.
That's irrelevant. My issue is with your opinion and the basis of it, not with any action you are taking on behalf of that opinion.
 
Last edited:

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Except you weren't using "my standards" at all. I was illustrating that Payak's attitude towards homosexuals today is reflective of attitudes towards interracial relationships a hundred years ago, thus illustrating that the opinion held is one of narrow-minded, backwards thinking intolerance. You failed to grasp this, and instead constructed a ludicrous straw man.
So if anything of the same type that was thought wrong that was later prove right being a justification for anything of that type being right as a result would extend to all other things of that type unless specified up-front, right? I will make you a deal, but only once. If you agree that your standards would have been tightened if you had known the argument I would base on them and instead give me those new standards I will use them instead of your original claim and what is easily derived from it. Deal.


What criteria? Which side? Do you or do you not understand that your comparison was absurd or not?
It was absurd because you original claim was absurdly broad and irrational in it's breadth. Like I said I will grant that you did not anticipate what I would do with it, but only once. If you will instead give me the detailed standard by which you would judge all such issues. Why is homosexual marriage or behavior right because interracial behavior is right but once judged wrong (I am granting it is because in my views it would be, in yours I do not even see how you could claim them to be in the first place but that is another issue all-together)? God makes man equal, evolution makes them all un-equal. Or to simplify just state why Homosexual behavior or marriage is right.
 

payak

Active Member
Some people think that's disgusting, perverted and unnatural.

But I hope they don't go around saying so in public places.

They certainly do, and that's how they feel so why should I tell them how to feel.

I will never bother or disrespect.a gay person,if I'm asked what I think about them I will answer right or wrong.

I will no ask someone their view on interacial breeding, they feel what they feel and have that right,but step to me and express that feeling and I will lash out not because of your views but because your challenging me.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
I will no ask someone their view on interacial breeding, they feel what they feel and have that right,but step to me and express that feeling and I will lash out not because of your views but because your challenging me.

But when people here lash out at you for expressing your feelings about gays, you seem unhappy about that lashing out.

Might it be better sometimes to at least speak with some diplomacy when expressing one's disgust? I don't care if you've bred outside your 'race' or if same-sex folks have sex with one another. But if I did, I'd try not to use the words 'disgust' or 'perverted' or 'obscene' when speaking of such behaviors. (Or however you've been describing gayness.)

Murdering a child? Yeah, I'd condemn that quite openly. But homosexuality and miscegenation just don't upset me enough to use strong language against them.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
So if anything of the same type that was thought wrong that was later prove right being a justification for anything of that type being right as a result would extend to all other things of that type unless specified up-front, right?
You're not even attempting to make sense. My argument wasn't a "justification", it was a comparison between the attitude held by the poster and past injustices committed by people with similar attitudes.

I will make you a deal, but only once. If you agree that your standards would have been tightened if you had known the argument I would base on them and instead give me those new standards I will use them instead of your original claim and what is easily derived from it. Deal.
Again, you're not making any kind of sense.

It was absurd because you original claim was absurdly broad and irrational in it's breadth.
How? How is comparing the act of calling homosexuality "abnormal" or "disgusting" to past popular beliefs of calling interracial relationships "abnormal" or "disgusting" absurdly broad or irrational? It's a direct and very clear comparison.

Like I said I will grant that you did not anticipate what I would do with it, but only once. If you will instead give me the detailed standard by which you would judge all such issues. Why is homosexual marriage or behavior right because interracial behavior is right but once judged wrong (I am granting it is because in my views it would be, in yours I do not even see how you could claim them to be in the first place but that is another issue all-together)?
You seem to have completely missed the point of the comparison. It was about the attitude presented by the poster, not a justification for homosexual marriage or anything else you're imagining.

God makes man equal, evolution makes them all un-equal. Or to simplify just state why Homosexual behavior or marriage is right.
Because consenting adults should be permitted to express their love as equally as any other consenting adults, and society should not deny rights to groups on the basis of religious or non-religious bigotry or hatred.
 
Last edited:
Top