Why Christian countries should beware taking in Muslims refugees

[stvdv]

Why Christian countries should beware taking in Muslims refugees

Koran 5:51:
O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
[allies = protectors]

The Koran clearly warns Muslims to NOT take refuge in a Christian country. And if they do they are kind of excommunicated as per Koran. Koran even tells them they are one of them. Meaning they are now seen as Christians by Allah, Koran, other Muslims.

Literally taken, Muslim converted to Christian, would be no problem in a Christian country.

BUT if they stay Muslim in Christian country they will have conflict in conscience IMHO

"Islamic leaders" implementing unwestern rules to kill homosexuals, infidels etc. in certain countries can't be taken light by the west. We should take them up to their fanatic Koran, or have Koran changed or have refugees converted into Christianity. Failing to do so will give troubles.

If "Islamic leaders" fail to do this, they are hypocrites IMHO. And then I conclude they have a hidden agenda to .....fill it in yourself.....

I think this is the major problem now happening in Europe, but also in the rest of the world.

I am Curious what others [Christians and Muslims] think about this.

Note: @Sunstone: Thanks for telling me it's quite a one-sided OP. That's true, my mistake. I know that 90% of the Muslims are wonderful people. And they are even killed the most by fanatics interpreting the Koran literal. Here I just picked one verse to show how careful we must be with allowing fanatic Islam to grow.
Note: I don't see humans as problems. I do see that fanatic dogma's easily lead to problems. Knowledge and wisdom can help avoid these.

 

[Sunstone]

The Koran clearly warns Muslims to NOT take refuge in a Christian country.

Excellent! I, too, am an internet Islamic scholar fully competent to interpret verses of the Qur'an in context! Welcome to the rich world of internet expertise!

BUT this is not what happens. They stay Muslim. Now problems start with their conscience. They go against the Koran. The only solution is to convert that country into Muslim country.

A few facts:

Immigrant groups do not typically assimilate overnight. For instance, German immigrants to the US in the 1800s were typically still predominantly speaking German three generations in America. When I lived in Illinois in the 1980s, there were still two small, nearby towns in which German was the day to day language. So don't judge Muslim immigrants to the US or Europe in unrealistic terms. You appear to be jumping the gun here.

Second thing. Pew surveys are showing that native-born sons and daughters of Muslim immigrants to America are already assimilating into American society, adopting American values, even much faster than the German immigrants of the 1800s.

Next, Saudi Arabia has arguably been slowing the assimilation of Muslim immigrant groups by promoting among them its own brand of very conservative Islam.

While assimilation seems to be slower in Europe, that is most likely due to cultural differences towards immigrants. European societies tend to discourage immigrant groups from assimilation. You might be slow to assimilate too if you realized you had moved to a society where you and your children might always be regarded as "multicultural curiosities" of some sort, rather than as true Germans or true French with the same opportunities as everyone else.

For models of how to assimilate large groups of people, it's best to look to the US. We ain't perfect, but we have a lot of experience with such things, being from the start a nation of immigrants, and assimilation is one of the very few things we're genuinely much better at than most European countries.

 

[stvdv]

Excellent! I, too, am an internet Islamic scholar fully competent to interpret verses of the Qur'an in context! Welcome to the rich world of internet expertise

Thank you Sunstone. I agree, I am not an expert. But I do think it's correct to state that there are verses in the Koran that easily lead to misinterpretation. And when the punishment were to kiss the other there was no big problem [esp. for "erotic dancing girls" religious people]. Punishment in the Koran verses can be quite brutal. So I do think it's good to have people talk and think about this, to avoid Wild West shooting later on.

Thanks for the remaining points also.

A few facts:
Immigrant groups do not typically assimilate overnight. For instance, German immigrants to the US in the 1800s were typically still predominantly speaking German three generations in America. When I lived in Illinois in the 1980s, there were still two small, nearby towns in which German was the day to day language. So don't judge Muslim immigrants to the US or Europe in unrealistic terms. You appear to be jumping the gun here..

Oke. That's a good point. Assimilation can take 100 of years. But still I think it's very good to beware of fanatic scriptures. Luckily they don't burn witches now anymore in Holland. But I rather don't go back that much. German culture and American culture are similar esp. when compared to Islamic. So caution is more important here, esp. because there is religion involved.

Second thing. Pew surveys are showing that native-born sons and daughters of Muslim immigrants to America are already assimilating into American society, adopting American values, even much faster than the German immigrants of the 1800s.

Nice those surveys. I do realize that there is a big difference now. Internet connects all. 1800 people were individual. Striving to survive. Nowadays we have luxery problems creating a host of different more dangerous problems. No more individuals. Holland now admits that mosques have been funded by Middle East to create fanatic, so dangerous, Islam. Even more reason to be cautious.

Next, Saudi Arabia has arguably been slowing the assimilation of Muslim immigrant groups by promoting among them its own brand of very conservative Islam..

That's good to hear.

While assimilation seems to be slower in Europe, that is most likely due to cultural differences towards immigrants. European societies tend to discourage immigrant groups from assimilation. You might be slow to immigrate too if you realized you had moved to a society where you and your children would always be regarded as "multicultural curiosities" of some sort.

Not the case in Holland. Racism is blowing over more from America the last few years. I never even thought about racism till few year back [but agreed there of course are others who were discriminating]. Your first point is valid here. It might take 100 years to integrate properly.

For models of how to assimilate large groups of people, it's best to look to the US. We ain't perfect, but we have a lot of experience with such things, being from the start a nation of immigrants, and assimilation is one of the very few things we're genuinely much better at than most European countries..

That's true. But again, I think nowadays is so much different than when immigration started in USA.

Dutch people are too good, like Swedish. So it is for us very good to stand up. 25 years ago a Muslim woman told me "Dutch are softies, in 20 years Holland is ours". So it seems they have this thought already for over 20 years now. And that is an alarming FACT.

American are more Wild West grown. They shoot first then talk , dutch first talk, never shoot [the Hollywood Wild West movies I saw at least; even in the news they even shoot in classrooms; we don't have that here]. So we need first to make that step. Tell them "you are welcome here, but you have to get used to our culture. Our culture is very good, don't try to critisize ours to make it Islamic". And that is happening nowadays, and that is very bad. I loved Putins words on this. He was very clear on this subject. Hopefully Holland learns from this.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Excellent! I, too, am an internet Islamic scholar fully competent to interpret verses of the Qur'an in context! Welcome to the rich world of internet expertise!

A few facts:

Immigrant groups do not typically assimilate overnight. For instance, German immigrants to the US in the 1800s were typically still predominantly speaking German three generations in America. When I lived in Illinois in the 1980s, there were still two small, nearby towns in which German was the day to day language. So don't judge Muslim immigrants to the US or Europe in unrealistic terms. You appear to be jumping the gun here.

Second thing. Pew surveys are showing that native-born sons and daughters of Muslim immigrants to America are already assimilating into American society, adopting American values, even much faster than the German immigrants of the 1800s.

Next, Saudi Arabia has arguably been slowing the assimilation of Muslim immigrant groups by promoting among them its own brand of very conservative Islam.

While assimilation seems to be slower in Europe, that is most likely due to cultural differences towards immigrants. European societies tend to discourage immigrant groups from assimilation. You might be slow to immigrate too if you realized you had moved to a society where you and your children would always be regarded as "multicultural curiosities" of some sort.

For models of how to assimilate large groups of people, it's best to look to the US. We ain't perfect, but we have a lot of experience with such things, being from the start a nation of immigrants, and assimilation is one of the very few things we're genuinely much better at than most European countries.

Not sure about that last bit, since the USA seems to take in fewer Muslims than almost any other advanced country pro rata, and I doubt that the USA has as many Muslim ghettos like many of the European countries, like the UK, for example. Many northern towns have been taken over by large numbers of Muslims - and with the effects felt. I agree that many do become assimilated and the problems lessen, but the problems are real and understandable. This just the other day:

'Young British Muslims are becoming much more liberal – but they aren’t less religious as a result'

 

[Sunstone]

So I do think it's good to have people talk and think about this.

Yes, but it is not promising when someone posts a one-sided OP in attempting to open up a dialog. What kind of "dialog" is that likely to produce? Did you google around a bit to find different views on the issue before you posted?

 

[Sunstone]

...I doubt that the USA has as many Muslim ghettos like many of the European countries...

So far as I know, Muslim immigrants to European nations tend to be relatively low paid laborers. Isn't that true? Don't European nations mainly allow them in order to gain cheap labor?

Here, they tend to be doctors, tech people, small entrepreneurs, and other such things who often came over on student visas and stayed after graduation. Hard to build a proper ghetto with such people, I know!

'Young British Muslims are becoming much more liberal – but they aren’t less religious as a result'

Interesting! Thanks for posting that!

 

[Augustus]

The Koran clearly warns Muslims to NOT take refuge in a Christian country. And if they do they are kind of excommunicated as per Koran. Koran even tells them they are one of them. Meaning they are now seen as Christians by Allah, Koran, other Muslims.

Why do you assume that the correct method of interpretation is rank, unthinking scriptural literalism?

What have you learned about this in your studies of Islamic jurisprudence?

BUT if they stay Muslim in Christian country they will have conflict in conscience IMHO

Just as well, in most cases, it isn't a problem ITHO...

I am Curious what others [Christians and Muslims] think about this.

A common Islamic legal perspective would be that Muslims who are not prohibited from practicing their religion are to obey the laws of the society in which they live.

This is based on analogous reasoning from Muhammed who signed covenants with non-Muslims and centuries of jurisprudence.

 

[HonestJoe]

So far as I know, Muslim immigrants to European nations tend to be relatively low paid laborers. Isn't that true? Don't European nations mainly allow them in order to gain cheap labor?

Here, they tend to be doctors, tech people, small entrepreneurs, and other such things who often came over on student visas and stayed after graduation. Hard to build a proper ghetto with such people, I know!

”Muslim immigrant” covers a massive range of individuals. There are a lot of conventional immigrants in Europe who do fit your second category and a number of those will be Muslim, from all sorts of different countries.

There are also a lot of true refugees and economic migrants, especially recently. Clearly Europe will see more of them that the Americas because we’re so much closer to the countries they flee. Many of those either don’t have the skills for those kind of roles, have lost records of any formal qualifications or are legally prevented from taking them due to their residence status.

 

[stvdv]

Yes, but it is not promising when someone posts a one-sided OP in attempting to open up a dialog. What kind of "dialog" is that likely to produce? Did you google around a bit to find different views on the issue before you posted?

Thank you. That is helpful advice. Never did any debating before. Still a lot to learn for me. And you are right here. I put a note in the OP.

 

[Sunstone]

Thank you. That is helpful advice. Never did any debating before. Still a lot to learn for me. And you are right here.

Thank you for your kind understanding and patience with me.

 

[Mock Turtle]

So far as I know, Muslim immigrants to European nations tend to be relatively low paid laborers. Isn't that true? Don't European nations mainly allow them in order to gain cheap labor?

Here, they tend to be doctors, tech people, small entrepreneurs, and other such things who often came over on student visas and stayed after graduation. Hard to build a proper ghetto with such people, I know!

Interesting! Thanks for posting that!

It seems to vary - I don't have any particular knowledge - but here too, our surgery is now staffed by Muslims, after not having been so for decades, and there are many shops taken over by Muslims too. I suspect it is just as much a mix as elsewhere. Ghettos tend to form all the time though, so I'm not particularly targeting Muslims. They just are more obvious in many towns - niqabs and burqas, for example - and it is only when I visit local towns that one notices the changes. Much the same happened in the 1950s and 60s with immigration from Jamaica, Africa, and India though. And much the same reaction from locals all too often.

 

[danieldemol]

...or have refugees converted into Christianity. Failing to do so will give troubles.

As if Christianity were the only safe option, and as if you can just convert people against their will!

 

[stvdv]

Why do you assume that the correct method of interpretation is rank, unthinking scriptural literalism?
What have you learned about this in your studies of Islamic jurisprudence?

Just as well, in most cases, it isn't a problem ITHO...

A common Islamic legal perspective would be that Muslims who are not prohibited from practicing their religion are to obey the laws of the society in which they live.
This is based on analogous reasoning from Muhammed who signed covenants with non-Muslims and centuries of jurisprudence.

Why do you assume that the correct method of interpretation is rank, unthinking scriptural literalism?.

I don't think that, but I see that happening a lot; just reality [and not amazed by this, but also not blind to it]. I visited a mosque quite a few times and was happy to see many Muslims are quite open, but also more than a few were quite radical. And I am no fool. Just see history. They told me in the mosque that most Muslims don't read even Koran they just follow Imaam. Good Imaam no problem. Here in Holland we have quite a few "Hate Imaams". Holland is still crazy in tolerance, but luckily getting closer to stop "Hate Imaam's" from practising. Americans don't let others walk over them. Dutch people are different, they are too tolerant.

I have learned that many can talk quite smooth, but when asking deeper suddenly the real "person" shows up. Not only Muslims, in general.
[Funny detail. Those hate Imaams know Koran very well, and they take stuff literal !!!]

@stvdv: BUT if they stay Muslim in Christian country they will have conflict in conscience IMHO.

Just as well, in most cases, it isn't a problem ITHO... .

ITHO I don't know.
If you believe it's no problem in this religious case, then what can I say?

A common Islamic legal perspective would be that Muslims who are not prohibited from practicing their religion are to obey the laws of the society in which they live.
This is based on analogous reasoning from Muhammed who signed covenants with non-Muslims and centuries of jurisprudence
.

Yes, this I know. And I am not even a Muslim. Seems in Holland quite a few Muslims forget this.

 

[stvdv]

As if Christianity were the only safe option, and as if you can just convert people against their will!

That was exactly my point. The Koran [so Allah] was telling this, NOT me.

 

[stvdv]

Excellent! I, too, am an internet Islamic scholar fully competent to interpret verses of the Qur'an in context! Welcome to the rich world of internet expertise!

I would have given your reply "Winner", but I just don't like irony,cynism,sarcasm. I always say IMHO showing I know that I'm not perfect [in interpreting etc]. And I am very happy if you tell me my mistakes [I like to learn and improve]. But I never encourage irony etc [this is just my personal thing. I do love and appreciate your replies and posts a lot]

 

[stvdv]

So far as I know, Muslim immigrants to European nations tend to be relatively low paid laborers. Isn't that true? Don't European nations mainly allow them in order to gain cheap labor?

That's true, that's how it started many years back with people from Turkey invited to work in Holland. And that is probably karma biting Dutchies in the a.s.s now.

 

[Woberts]

What's next, "no-go" zones?

 

[Mock Turtle]

This is worth a look:

What I learned when I spoke to the people who chose to leave Islam

 

[stvdv]

What's next, "no-go" zones?

Those there are plenty in USA. Where gangs are in control.

 

[Augustus]

I don't think that, but I see that happening a lot; just reality [and not amazed by this, but also not blind to it

Why then say something like this:

The Koran clearly warns Muslims to NOT take refuge in a Christian country. And if they do they are kind of excommunicated as per Koran. Koran even tells them they are one of them. Meaning they are now seen as Christians by Allah, Koran, other Muslims.

It only 'clearly' says this if you assume a pure and contextless literalism which is not the standard method of exegesis.

For example, in canonical Islamic history, early Muslims took refuge in Christian Axum/Ethiopia which clearly shows that there must be context involved. If Muhammad's companions, who are viewed as an exemplary generation, were not committing apostasy by doing so, then why should it be assumed that modern ones are?

Even the extremists who would argue for an interpretation like yours wouldn't solely rely on scriptural literalism, it would have to be justified with recourse to broader theological reasoning.

As such the OP is based on a flawed premise, and doesn't really set up the possibility for a meaningful discussion of Islamic extremism.