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Why Christian countries should beware taking in Muslims refugees

outlawState

Deism is dead
2.Althpugh Islam says that the Christians and the Jews have distorted the original teachings of Jesus and Moses, Christians and Jews were allowed to have their own Churches and Synagogues in the Muslim land..and up until today we see that the birth place of Jesus and may historic Synagogues in the Islamic lands have been kept unharmed thorough centuries of the Muslim rule.
Destruction of the church of the Holy Sepulchre
Turks push to turn iconic Hagia Sophia back into a mosque
Saudi’s top sheikh: ‘Necessary to destroy all churches’
500 Christian churches have closed in London alone while 423 mosques were built.
Conversion of non-Islamic places of worship into mosques
Belgium's dwindling churches to be converted into mosques
Venice church transforms into mosque for seven months
Visigoth Basilica of Saint Vincent of Lérins became mosque of Córdoba
'Turn France's empty churches into mosques'

Armed Muslim mob DESTROYS Christian village over church building
Muslim Brotherhood Burned churches and buildings
Worship Places Converted or Destroyed by Muslims
Allah Takes over Churches, Synagogues
Oldest standing Church in the World not mentioned by Saudi Commission for Antiquities nor the World Heritage Site.
Egypt - Botroseya Church bombing
Egypt - Gunmen open fire on a Mar Mina Coptic Orthodox Church in Cairo
Egypt - 44 killed at Saint George church and Saint Mark's Cathedral
Pakistan - 15 killed Lahore church bombings
Pakistan - 127 people killedPeshawar church bombing
Pakistan - 9 killed QUETTA church
Nigeria - June 2012 Kaduna church bombings
Nigeria - Dec 2011 5 churches bombed
Manchester SUICIDE BOMBER'S MOSQUE A FORMER CHURCH
Muslims in Europe are increasingly converting empty Christian churches into mosques.
THEY ARE BUILDING AN ISLAMIC STATE IN AMERICA, ONE CHURCH AT A TIME.

So we see that Islamic immigration is about really about religious expropriation. That's the fact. Theology is inconsequential except that it is definitely not Christian. The secret to the Quran is as is well known that there are two Qurans in one book. There is the pre-Medina Quran and the post Medina Quran. Mohammed's personality changed after his migration to Medina. He turned from pacifist to violent warmonger, even into a psychopath.

You can read whatever you want into Quaran. There is no authoritative interpretation across Islam, because, ultimately, it was composed by men.
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
Thank you for you kind words and explanations. I started this OP, because the translation of this verse didn't feel good.

Just some time back I found another translation that solved my bad feeling. The word "protectors" is used instead of "friends". And "certain" was added [only in 1 of the 10 Koran translations I have]. For me now the whole verse feels good. Just a little change but a big effect. You think "certain" is correct here, according to your arabic verse? And I like "protector" [not friend or allies] because it can also mean "Allah" as my protector. Without "certain" it's too generalizing [towards Christians and Jews] IMHO.

*51. O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as protectors; these are protectors of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

1 more question. I like verse 3:07 in the Koran, where is said:
He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses— which constitute the essence of the scripture—as well as multiple- meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple- meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, “We believe in this—all of it comes from our Lord.” Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

I like this verse very much, because it says IMHO that "straightforward verses" contain the essence of the Koran. And gives a warning as regard to the multi-meaning verses which easily can be used to create confusion. Is there a list of "straightforward verses" only?

You are most welcome!

Indeed the Quran explicitly stated in some verses that the Christians and Jews are are not [all] the same, i.e., their attitude toward Islam differs from one individual to another, and in these same verses the Quran portrayed a very beautiful picture of some of them, that can be regarded as a page of honor for them! Hers is the translation of the verses:

"They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer].

They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous.

And whatever good they do - never will it be removed from them. And Allah is Knowing of the righteous." Quran 3:113-115.

Then, regarding the translation of the verse of the OP, although I am a native Arab, and have studied the Arabic language for a long time, when it come to the translation of the holy Quran, the context is the easiest way to decide of which English word is to use for which Arabic Word. Then I must say that: although The Arabs became a minority among the Muslims very soon after the death of the Prophet, with the mass conversion to Islam, the Muslims were very wise when they concentrated on teaching the new Muslims the Arabic language rather than translating the Quran, as any translation will have its limitations.

And as of the "Mutashabih", which is multiple-meaning veses, there are some verses that can be referred to as absolutely "Mutashabih", such as the unconnected letters at the beginning of some chapters. However the general rule is that the "Mutashabih" is a relative concept, that is: as you gain more deep knowledge in the straightforward verses, more and more "Mutashabih" verses will become as straightforward verses to you, while they are still "Mutashabih" to the others. It may be that there is a hadith saying this but I am not sure at the moment whether there is a hadith or not.

Finally, sorry if my reply was a little bit a generic one, but don't hesitate to forward questions to my about Islam, Arabic or the Arab world. Although I don't wear the official dress of a Muslim cleric, as I have my job and my profession, I have studied Islamic Sciences for many years, and have many researches in these fields.

Good luck
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
And as of the "Mutashabih", which is multiple-meaning veses, there are some verses that can be referred to as absolutely "Mutashabih", such as the unconnected letters at the beginning of some chapters. However the general rule is that the "Mutashabih" is a relative concept, that is: as you gain more deep knowledge in the straightforward verses, more and more "Mutashabih" verses will become as straightforward verses to you, while they are still "Mutashabih" to the others

Thank you. This makes sense to me how you explain "Mutashabih".

And good to hear that Koran does make a distinction between individual other believers. So the words "certain Christians" I found in 1 translation seems to be more correct [taking out any confusion].

Wish you a good Ramadan
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Indeed the Quran explicitly stated in some verses that the Christians and Jews are are not [all] the same, i.e., their attitude toward Islam differs from one individual to another, and in these same verses the Quran portrayed a very beautiful picture of some of them, that can be regarded as a page of honor for them! Hers is the translation of the verses:
"They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer].
They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous.
And whatever good they do - never will it be removed from them. And Allah is Knowing of the righteous." Quran 3:113-115

If you give this as an example, that does not feel good. Because if I interpret this correct it seems the Christian is only accepted if he believes in Allah and recites Koran. That seems to be a definition of a Muslim. Not of a Christian to me.

I would like to see a verse stating that a Christian is good in "Allah's view" just for being a Christian. So not needing to recite Koran and not needing to believe in Allah. So just being a Christian, doing good works [of course judging Allah and Koran should NEVER be done by a Christian, because Jesus says "do not judge"].

Can you give such a verse? That would be more helpful in this context in this post.

Or do you believe a Christian is only good if he recites Koran and believe in Allah?
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
If you give this as an example, that does not feel good. Because if I interpret this correct it seems the Christian is only accepted if he believes in Allah and recites Koran. That seems to be a definition of a Muslim. Not of a Christian to me.

I would like to see a verse stating that a Christian is good in "Allah's view" just for being a Christian. So not needing to recite Koran and not needing to believe in Allah. So just being a Christian, doing good works [of course judging Allah and Koran should NEVER be done by a Christian, because Jesus says "do not judge"].

Can you give such a verse? That would be more helpful in this context in this post.

Or do you believe a Christian is only good if he recites Koran and believe in Allah?
Christians believe in Allah. Just sayin'.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Christians believe in Allah. Just sayin'

I know many Christians believe in Allah, but I also know many Christians who don't believe in Allah.
But I was curious if a Muslim believes a Christian MUST believe in Allah to be accepted as "good" in Islam view
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
I know many Christians believe in Allah, but I also know many Christians who don't believe in Allah.
But I was curious if a Muslim believes a Christian MUST believe in Allah to be accepted as "good" in Islam view
What Christian doesn't believe in Allah???
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Since we're speaking in English, and not in Arabic, the correct expression is "Christians believe in God":
:rolleyes:
Then refer to Allah as God consistently. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Saying "Christians believe in God, not Allah" is as nonsensical as saying "Christians believe in Jesus, not Yeshua".
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member
Since we're speaking in English, and not in Arabic, the correct expression is "Christians believe in God":
:rolleyes:

In Dutch English words snuck in. Many don't even know they are original english [e.g. computer]. Spelling checkers are oke with Allah [not with allah];)

[Allah - Wikipedia]
In Islam, Allah is the unique, omnipotent and only deity and creator of the universe and is equivalent to God in other Abrahamic religions
The history of the name Allāh in English was probably influenced by the study of comparative religion in the 19th century; for example, Thomas Carlyle (1840) sometimes used the term Allah but without any implication that Allah was anything different from God. However, in his biography of Muḥammad (1934), Tor Andræ always used the term Allah, though he allows that this "conception of God" seems to imply that it is different from that of the Jewish and Christian theologies
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member
What Christian doesn't believe in Allah???

I don't know which planet you are from, but in Holland in Baptist church they say quote "God of Islam <> God of Christianity"
[I only see 1 God. But these Christians see many Gods. I can't help it. I even gave up explaining it]
 
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Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
I don't know which planet you are from, but in Holland in Baptist church they say quote "God of Islam <> God of Christianity"
[I only see 1 God. But these Christians see many Gods. I can't help it. Even I gave up explaining it]
The God of Islam is the God of Christianity. And Judaism, while we're at it. And Zoroastrianism, if you squint.
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
If you give this as an example, that does not feel good. Because if I interpret this correct it seems the Christian is only accepted if he believes in Allah and recites Koran. That seems to be a definition of a Muslim. Not of a Christian to me.

I would like to see a verse stating that a Christian is good in "Allah's view" just for being a Christian. So not needing to recite Koran and not needing to believe in Allah. So just being a Christian, doing good works [of course judging Allah and Koran should NEVER be done by a Christian, because Jesus says "do not judge"].

Can you give such a verse? That would be more helpful in this context in this post.

Or do you believe a Christian is only good if he recites Koran and believe in Allah?

Hi there,

Here is what I would like to say:

Firstly, Arabs used to refer to God as “Allah” since before the arrival of Islam..

Indeed, even the Christian Arab today do use the word Allah to refer to God.

Then the verse did not say, “recite Koran” it says “recite the verses of God”..

And thirdly, according to Islam, the religion of God in its essence is one religion. That is Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all of the prophets sent by Allah follow one single religion that has been revealed by Allah. The basics of this unified religion is the same, it’s to believe in the God and his attributes, and to follow his directions. However, as human life became more and more complicated as time passes, each prophet will come with new laws to deal with the new complications. That is why although each prophet will call in believing in the previous prophets, he will call for following his version of that same religion, which includes the latest laws. Hence, Muhammad called for believing in the previous prophets and also called for believing in him and following him, especially, that according to Islam, Muhammad is the last and final prophet and was sent to the whole humanity.

And Finally, thanks for your Ramdan greetings and all the best!
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Hi there,
Here is what I would like to say:
Firstly, Arabs used to refer to God as “Allah” since before the arrival of Islam..
Indeed, even the Christian Arab today do use the word Allah to refer to God.

Then the verse did not say, “recite Koran” it says “recite the verses of God”..

And thirdly, according to Islam, the religion of God in its essence is one religion. That is Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all of the prophets sent by Allah follow one single religion that has been revealed by Allah. The basics of this unified religion is the same, it’s to believe in the God and his attributes, and to follow his directions. However, as human life became more and more complicated as time passes, each prophet will come with new laws to deal with the new complications. That is why although each prophet will call in believing in the previous prophets, he will call for following his version of that same religion, which includes the latest laws. Hence, Muhammad called for believing in the previous prophets and also called for believing in him and following him, especially, that according to Islam, Muhammad is the last and final prophet and was sent to the whole humanity.

And Finally, thanks for your Ramdan greetings and all the best!

Thank you for the update.
I didn't know "Allah" was used before arrival of Islam.
I knew many Christians use Allah, but found that strange.
But with this info it makes sense, and I understand why

Then the verse did not say, “recite Koran” it says “recite the verses of God”..
Even better info.
It said "reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer]."
And I was still linking Allah to Islam. Thanks for the educational lesson. My mistake. Now I understand fully.
I was about to ask you "how about Hinduism according to Islam". But no need anymore.
Allah = God = 1 God only. So Islam respects all religions, also Hinduism [Brahman for God]. Hindus recite all day verses of God.
I am very happy to read this info.
My Ramadan start today couldn't be better. Thanks a lot.

I wouldn't mind another prophet though [when I was 10 I told my mother "if Jesus is on earth, I go there"].
But when I think about it, we have already plenty of religions on this little planet earth.
 
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