Why condemn a whole people if only a few do wrong?

[exchemist]

A very classical issue that occure not only in RF but in daily life on earth, is that people judge everyone from a group if one of them do wrong.

Example if one muslim do wrong, every muslim must be evil.

If one Christian do wrong Christianity must be evil?

How about if a car mechanic do an evil action, example murder or rape, does every car mechanics become evil human beings?

So why Do you judge differently if a bad person come from a religious background?

It seems to me the issue with the modern image of Islam is that there appears to be comparatively little effort, from within its ranks, to repudiate and stamp out the current perversion of it for terrorist purposes and to subjugate women. Quite often, at least in the West, there is the impression that ordinary muslims tend to duck the issue, or express their views about it in an equivocal and pusillanimous way. It may not help that Islam does not have much of a hierarchy of leadership. There seem to be few voices that seem able to speak with authority on behalf of Islam, and few who seem to have any authority to control how muslims should behave.

This I think is a real issue and one it is up to muslims to address, instead of just playing the victim card. I say this as someone who has a lot of respect for moderate Islam, from my time in the Middle East 35 years ago. I find the drift towards fundamentalism since that time lamentable. It needs to be reversed.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Here is an example of the actual problem from a persepective of an outsider looking in:

Ravi Zacharias has been revealed to be a sexual predator and a whole lot of christians condemn him for it.

If the same thing is revealed about a famous muslim how many muslims would condemn his actions?

It seems like (emphasis on SEEMS) muslims in general don't like to admit that their religion and its practitioners have flaws. That is a problem. There is also the general muslim hypocrisy that they constantly talk about Palestine and Israel but never if ever speak about muslims getting killed by other muslims, the Chinese killing muslims, muslims getting killed in Syria and such events, which gives the impression that they have a political agenda against Israel but they dont care about the actual muslims around the world. People suspect them of dishonesty. So the suspicion is that they are hiding an agenda and are in support of certain wrongdoings because of a joint ideology.

Now I would say personally that this doesn't include any group but the Sunni muslims but most people don't know that there are different sects in Islam.

To me, an ex-JW, meaning that I have been in a group that doesn't like admitting its mistakes for certain specific reasons, see a similarity between the group I belong to and how Sunni muslims behave. Sunni's, from what I have understood when speaking to muslims, have been influenced by the Salafi's which might also give this impression.

The problem is that muslims are too secretive about what they believe and tend to evade explicit questions or paint a picture that is too rosy about Islam and contradicts what people see around them. This makes them suspicious.

But I at least know one muslim who is genuine and he is a good friend of mine, but the majority of Sunni's I know have an arrogance about them that is offputting.

I can only speak for my self on this issue and how i understand it.
Yes there are muslims who do wrong, just as any other person we are not perfect.
My view as a Sufi muslim are different than sunni muslims, and some muslims are very Extreme, others are non voilent and very peaceful .
Do todays islam have a problem? Yes it does. Not because the teaching is wrong, but because those who follow it do not grasp the truth of the teaching.
And a lot of muslims do not work on bettering them self, they only blindly believe. And get angry if someone disagree with them.

As i Said in an other OP, i do not hold against Allah and his teaching, but i Don think for my self and Sometimes my (unortodox) view create difficulties for me.

 

[Spirit of Light]

It seems to me the issue with the modern image of Islam is that there appears to be comparatively little effort, from within its ranks, to repudiate and stamp out the current perversion of it for terrorist purposes and to subjugate women. Quite often, at least in the West, there is the impression that ordinary muslims tend to duck the issue, or express their views about it in an equivocal and pusillanimous way. It may not help that Islam does not have much of a hierarchy of leadership. There seem to be few voices that seem able to speak with authority on behalf of Islam, and few who seem to have any authority to control how muslims should behave.

This I think is a real issue and one it is up to muslims to address, instead of just playing the victim card. I say this as someone who has a lot of respect for moderate Islam, from my time in the Middle East 35 years ago. I find the drift towards fundamentalism since that time lamentable. It needs to be reversed.

You do have some good points here.
Unfortunatly a lot of non arabic speakers only have the Quran in arabic, so they reading/listen to a book they dont understand them self. And only base their belief out of what an imam tell them to believe.
Of course this will create wrongdoing and misunderstanding. And lead to suffering of others but muslims and non muslims

 

[ChristineM]

I think many muslims do try to reduce the bad of those terrorists. But media dont show it

Certainly a few vocal objectors to atrocities carried our in the name of religion but very few

 

[Spirit of Light]

Certainly a few vocal objectors to atrocities carried our in the name of religion but very few

Yes we should have been more.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...

What isn't wrong though, is to judge / condemn the ideology that motivated the evil.
Which in the case of the muslim terrorist, definitely is a certain version / interpretation of islam.

Yeah, but that is not unique to Islam or religion. You can find the same with some, most or maybe all human ideologies/philosophies/organized value systems and what not.

 

[SalixIncendium]

A very classical issue that occure not only in RF but in daily life on earth, is that people judge everyone from a group if one of them do wro/ng.

Example if one muslim do wrong, every muslim must be evil.

If one Christian do wrong Christianity must be evil?

How about if a car mechanic do an evil action, example murder or rape, does every car mechanics become evil human beings?

So why Do you judge differently if a bad person come from a religious background?

I personally don't.

People tend to judge other based on the limited knowledge they have at hand. If one knows one mechanic, and that mechanic murders or rapes someone, then it is the human condition to conclude that mechanics must be murderers and rapists based on their knowledge of the limited subset.

In the case of Islam, most people I've encountered don't know any Muslims personally, have not read the Quran, and know little to nothing about Islam except what the media tells them. They read or hear about 9/11 and form their views on Islam based only on that knowledge.

So to summarize, people judge others based on ignorance of the views and practices of others.

 

[SalixIncendium]

What isn't wrong though, is to judge / condemn the ideology that motivated the evil.
Which in the case of the muslim terrorist, definitely is a certain version / interpretation of islam.

As I alluded to in my previous post, much of the judgment and condemnation of many ideologies is rooted in ignorance. Many judge and condemn with limited information.

In many cases, the condemnation should lie with the interpretation of the ideology, not the ideology itself.

 

[darkskies]

A very classical issue that occure not only in RF but in daily life on earth, is that people judge everyone from a group if one of them do wrong.

Example if one muslim do wrong, every muslim must be evil.

If one Christian do wrong Christianity must be evil?

How about if a car mechanic do an evil action, example murder or rape, does every car mechanics become evil human beings?

So why Do you judge differently if a bad person come from a religious background?

I think it's basic human tendancy to group people together, especially when something wrong has been done. People try to behave in ways that would cause them the least harm (according to their judgement), and it becomes easier to avoid entire groups as the risk is clearly minimum.

That being said, it's definitely not ok to generalise like that in any case. Personally I treat almost every human being the same. I am only trying to explain that behaviour above. A little education in logic (Faulty generalization), and perhaps this would be less common.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I think it's basic human tendancy to group people together, especially when something wrong has been done. People try to behave in ways that would cause them the least harm (according to their judgement), and it becomes easier to avoid entire groups as the risk is clearly minimum.

That being said, it's definitely not ok to generalise like that in any case. Personally I treat almost every human being the same. I am only trying to explain that behaviour above. A little education in logic (Faulty generalization), and perhaps this would be less common.

There is also the psychology of othering, in- and out-groups.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A very classical issue that occure not only in RF but in daily life on earth, is that people judge everyone from a group if one of them do wrong.

Example if one muslim do wrong, every muslim must be evil.

If one Christian do wrong Christianity must be evil?

How about if a car mechanic do an evil action, example murder or rape, does every car mechanics become evil human beings?

So why Do you judge differently if a bad person come from a religious background?

I only condemn those who do wrong, but often, there are many people who do wrong.

There are many cases where, say, a minister or other representative does horrible things, but they've been enabled by the donations of money from all the members.

For instance, there are a number of churches who have campaigned against LGBTQ rights. I've met people who belong to these churches and say they disagree with what their church did... but they still knowingly funded their church's activities with their tithes. These people have done wrong, IMO. Maybe not as much as the church leaders who carried out the campaign, but they've still done wrong.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Example if one muslim do wrong, every Muslim must be evil.

Unfortunately, they are not a few but more. There are many who indulge in terrorism and many more who support their ideology and provide financies. But we do find a few nice one's also.
You may go into a denial but the proof is available in all countries.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think many muslims do try to reduce the bad of those terrorists. But media dont show it

FWIW, my local mosque is in the news fairly frequently for its charitable activities.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I only condemn those who do wrong, but often, there are many people who do wrong.

There are many cases where, say, a minister or other representative does horrible things, but they've been enabled by the donations of money from all the members.

For instance, there are a number of churches who have campaigned against LGBTQ rights. I've met people who belong to these churches and say they disagree with what their church did... but they still knowingly funded their church's activities with their tithes. These people have done wrong, IMO. Maybe not as much as the church leaders who carried out the campaign, but they've still done wrong.

That is not unique to religious people. It is a general feature of human psychology. As a Dane I have observed the effect in a secular setting in regards to ordinary humans and a given "othered" group.
Religious humans are in the end humans like all humans and their behavior is not a result of religion, but human psychology.

 

[darkskies]

There is also the psychology of othering, in- and out-groups.

Oh yes yes. The most prime example I see in my life (I'm in high school) is the separation of boys and girls. Our society's a wee bit orthodox in that way. Some things are taboo-ish, especially things like being good friends with the other gender (as teenagers). Being indifferent to either, I tend to fit in with both. Get some looks from the teachers and other boys. The perception of either side from either side is notably different. As if they're alienated, a different kind.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Unfortunately, they are not a few but more. But we do find a few nice one's also.

Well, they are not evil as such. They do something you don't like. They don't have the property of being evil. That, they are evil, is a judgment in you.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I can only speak for my self on this issue and how i understand it.
Yes there are muslims who do wrong, just as any other person we are not perfect.
My view as a Sufi muslim are different than sunni muslims, and some muslims are very Extreme, others are non voilent and very peaceful .
Do todays islam have a problem? Yes it does. Not because the teaching is wrong, but because those who follow it do not grasp the truth of the teaching.
And a lot of muslims do not work on bettering them self, they only blindly believe. And get angry if someone disagree with them.

As i Said in an other OP, i do not hold against Allah and his teaching, but i Don think for my self and Sometimes my (unortodox) view create difficulties for me.

Allah and actual islamic teachings do not have to feature in the discussion. How people behave is separate to what the religion actually teaches.

But, Islam has a PR problem and the majority of muslims are not helping the situation. As we discussed in another post, Sunni muslims tend to have a very shallow approach to their faith. Do you think that that contributes to what I have mentioned?

Culturally and as a group, how do you perceive muslims in general to behave? Would you think that muslims contribute the the extremist muslim sects by not speaking out against them much?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Allah and actual islamic teachings do not have to feature in the discussion. How people behave is separate to what the religion actually teaches.

But, Islam has a PR problem and the majority of muslims are not helping the situation. As we discussed in another post, Sunni muslims tend to have a very shallow approach to their faith. Do you think that that contributes to what I have mentioned?

Culturally and as a group, how do you perceive muslims in general to behave? Would you think that muslims contribute the the extremist muslim sects by not speaking out against them much?

I think it is ok to correct or make aware of fault in my Brothers and sisters in islam, if they do not behave like our prophet Muhammad did, or as commanded by Allah.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It all depends on percentage. You have 5%, France as 9%, we have 15%.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I think it is ok to correct or make aware of fault in my Brothers and sisters in islam, if they do not behave like our prophet Muhammad did, or as commanded by Allah.

Would you ever publicly condemn them and say that what they are doing is wrong, especially detailing how they are wrong?