Or rather, do tell the adults two very important things.
1. They should not assume that disbelievers are morally rotten just because they are disbelievers; and
2. Believing in God does not entitle one to behavior that would otherwise be wrong.
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Why Debate the Existence of God, I Mean, What's The Point?
- Thread starter steeltoes
- Start date
Or rather, do tell the adults two very important things.
1. They should not assume that disbelievers are morally rotten just because they are disbelievers; and
2. Believing in God does not entitle one to behavior that would otherwise be wrong.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Yes I was in the church for about 17 years, so I have learnt a lot about religion, but in the end the Christian god just made no sense to me.
Aren't values, laws, and morals always entirely subjective and utterly dependent upon interpretation? Do you believe in objective morality?
I'm not seeing the dichotomy here that you are. It seems a very false dichotomy to me.
I don't think you understand how I use the word "myth" and "mythology." Very unfortunately, these terms are frequently used in my culture to designate lies, untruths, and falsehoods. I never use the word in this way. I thought that my usage of the word was clear from other language in my post, but apparently not. I should have clarified up front since I'm sadly aware of the unfortunate common usage of these words.
Mythologies are cultural narratives; they're stories we tell that are suffused with our values and beliefs, and they convey deep truths about life and its meaning to us. Strictly speaking, mythologies are not objectively true, but that isn't what matters - the stories resonate on a subjective or emotional level and they function as truth for us. They are guiding narratives that inform our lives and bring meaning to things. Everybody has mythology - everybody has stories they tell - which inform how we interpret the territory, and inform how we live. Often that lens is pretty deeply embedded - to the point that the bearer is blind to its existence. Their mythology is matter-of-fact. That perspective creates all sorts of interesting phenomena, ethnocentrism among them.
I don't really care that people have these mythologies - I mean, we all have them so why make a fuss about it - but I do have a biased preference for people to be aware of the stories they tell themselves; to know the set of glasses that they are wearing. When people are not aware that they are making value judgements - when they think their stories are "The Truth" - it makes me nervous. Too many things I disfavor are born out of such attitudes, though I do my best to live and let live - you have your mythology and I have mine. You believe in the mythology of progress quite strongly. I do not.
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I'm going to come at this from Sam Harris' "well being of conscious creatures" (WBCC) philosophy. As an anti-theist what I believe is that none of the theistic religions I've ever heard of impress me. In other words, I don't think that religion provides good models for morality, ethics or values. Religion has always attempted to usurp morals and values and claim them for itself, but the reality is that religion trails far behind the normal, good values and morals of decent, modern societies.
This is not to say that as of 2014, modernity has all the answers. Far from it, we've got a heap of troubles. But we're better off in secular societies than we would be in theocratic societies.
Back to WBCC... Values like compassion, evidence, logic, and parsimony give us our best hope for finding a set of universal morals that will provide well being for all. This doesn't necessarily mean that robots and computers are the "best" future for humans. It could be that we'll discover that a kibbutz lifestyle optimizes human well being. Who knows? But it's safe to say that bronze age morality is unlikely to be our best path forward, on a planet with 7 billion people.
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"without love in the game, insanity's king"
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
I'm never quite sure what that term means, 'Xian God', but I see what you mean.
Actually the first time I saw your avatar I thought theistic, I think, had to read what you had written next to 'religion.
cheers.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
I do like a lot of metaphors that religion has, I love the stories of Krishna, the Buddha and even Jesus, but that's all they are to me, metaphors.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Lynny, if I make a thread will you partake, I find your commentary quite interesting
Lyndale
Forgiven
O thank you, but its Him inside me, that loves you and I believe He'd much rather you talk to Him~ bow your head
-not type.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
That's so funny lol.
Lyndale
Forgiven
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Bunyip
pro scapegoat
Aren't values, laws, and morals always entirely subjective and utterly dependent upon interpretation? Do you believe in objective morality?
Yes, I believe in objective morality in the sense that the Socratic view is not simply subjective to the individual - values and mores so described need to relfect some sort of social consensus and be consistent with knowledge, reason and logic. Conversely those drawn from the religious view are subjective to whoever is given the right to interpret the scriptures - there is no filter of consensus. reason, knowledge or logic through which they can gain objectivity.
I don't see how morals drawn from divine command are really morals at all, they are obedience to whatever the religious leader in power feels to be the correct interpretation of scripture. Isaac slaughtering his own son for example, hardly a positive moral value - it is only moral because god ordered it, and whatever god orders is therefore moral.
I would define 'myth' as traditional stories and parables, often with supernatural elements.
Sure, I love to study mythology. Myths are fascinating.
How could any sane person think that progress is a myth? You are better off than any previous generation. Please expand on your idea about progress being a myth - it seems mind bogglingly counter to the observable facts. You are more free, more healthy, better educated and live in a far more healthy environment than would ever have been possible in the past - so please, I don't wish to offend you - but I would love to know how it is even possible to see progress as myth?
Only a few short centuries ago women were property, most men were in perpetual servitude and the infant mortalityrate was over 50% how can you doubt progress?
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chinu
chinu
There are many points.
The first out of many points is.. If there isn't any God than why people call God as God, instead of calling God by any other name ?
To exchange ideas. To gather information which supports your belief or unbelief. To practice the art of debate.
There are many points.
The first out of many points is.. If there isn't any God than why people call God as God, instead of calling God by any other name ?
I hope you realize that such a question isn't really very honest.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
You also got breathed in?
No, you're not offending, but again, remember by "myth" I don't mean "lie." Progress is a story or narrative we tell ourselves because it is not objectively true. It's based on value judgements. Whenever we say some thing is "better" or "worse" than some other thing, that's a value judgement. What one person considers "better" is not what another person will consider "better."
The myth of progress in particular requires a very anthropocentric perspective that I do not have. As humans have gotten "better" by increasing their flourishing, the rest of the world has not. You tell a mythology of human progress. I tell a mythology of how human "progress" has raped the planet and committed ecological genocide. I find anthropocentric ethical perspectives backwards and bankrupt, and I do not place humans or their needs at the center of the entire universe.
There's more to it than that. There are other stories I tell. I tend to see time in circular terms, while the myth of progress demands that time be linear. The mythology of progress insists the trajectory is a constant up and up, with all things getting better and better, with what we do inevitably being superior to that which came before. The stories I tell of time are cyclical like the four seasons: there are periods of growth and flourishing, then decay and death, and then the void out of which new things arise again... rinse and repeat. I also tell stories that prompt me to value our diversity and different ways of doing things. This means I respect other culture's ways, even if they are not my own; I would not be the person who wants to convert humanity to one way of doing politics, one way of doing religion (or irreligion), and so forth. That's one thing that really makes me nervous about the mythology of progress: it squashes diversity. It speaks of there being one right or best way of doing things, and that we should all do it. That is so boring! And worse, it sounds so intolerant of other ways of being!
But I'm rambling. Maybe something in here has helped to facilitate understanding; I don't at all wish you to abandon your narratives. There is beauty in the mythology of progress; Star Trek TNG is one of my favorite TV shows, and it epitomes the myth of progress. I am very skeptical of us getting there, but people like you mean there is a possibility.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
It isn't just that. The concept is problematic. That's why so many scriptures recommend theism. Because people get caught up in this mistake.