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Why Debate the Existence of God with Non-believers?

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't see how the panentheistic god is a personal god, at least not in the same sense as Yahweh.
Why not? I consider myself when speaking of God a panenthiest, and to me the transcendent part of that is the personal, infinite One. I may pray to God or commune with God as the Infinite One, Creator, Father, what-have-you. Yet God is also known as wholly immanent, immediate within the world, in everything and everyone, and within me.

A panentheist view as paradoxical. It is a positive 3rd person perspective of the Absolute (which anything rightly called God should be on that level, not just merely something that you groove on and call God). In that paradoxical nature, it is the closest expression of nonduality I can find in regard to speaking of God. It is both dualistic (which is what theism is), and monistic (which pantheism is), and neither, at the same time - simultaneously.

I love the expression of the 14th Century Christian mystic Meister Eckhart who really captures this paradox when he said, "I pray God make me free of God, so that I may know God in His unconditional being". There's your theist and atheist in one breath! :)

But yes, I would define both of them as atheists. Pantheists make it clear. I believe in the universe and some connection among it all, but I'm not a pantheist.
And they are both "theists" in the very use of the word theism in their titles.

No, they are atheists who believe in something they call "God". Some people call love "God", and we all believe in love, meaning that would make us all theists, which isn't true or helpful.
Nah, the best description I feel for using the word God is something Paul Tillich said that God is one's "ultimate concern". The nature of what can be rightly called God has to deal with something on the scale of infinity.

Because it's impossible to have a meaningful conversation at that point. If God can mean anything from love to the universe to some being outside of the universe who controls it, then it's impossible to discuss it.
No it's not impossible to discuss it. But here's where I see your insitance on words meaning one narrow focus. The will limit understanding to the focus. It puts blinders on, and does not allow an understanding of God to expand and grow. This is why I feel atheism is in fact, irrational. It defines the absolute as only, exclusively an anthropomorphic, mythic-eye view of God and rejects that. Well, so do I. But I believe in God.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
First, I don't know where you live. If you don't live in a Western or Middle Eastern country where one of the big three religions is dominant, then that might be something. But even still, you've been on this site for years. The idea of theism as I presented it is constantly talked about here. It's about the most popular topic there is.

You know, if someone calls themselves a 'Christian' etc., it doesn't tell me what their concept of deity is. That's why we can use these definitions in the first place, without everyone being totally confused. Condescending tone btw,...:rolleyes:
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
It depends on your beliefs.

So you believe in some JudgeGod who can tell us whether I am truly a conservative or truly a liberal?

I ask you again: If I say I'm a liberal and you say I'm a conservative, what am I?

Labels aren't meant to control who you are. They're meant to facilitate communication.

Sure. And to help the Nazis separate Jew from gentile.

I happen to be a coolguy. But sometimes evil people whisper among their friends that I'm actually a dweebguy.

Labels. More evil than good, I think.

No. You either believe in a theistic god or you don't. You can't do both at once. It's really that simple.

I believe that it's that simple for you. But I chuckle when I hear you insist that I must either believe or else not believe. I have long since let go of thinking about belief that way.

Not believing in some god-concepts is not part of the equation. "Atheist" refers to a specific god-concept, or else it becomes useless.

It is indeed useless.

By the way, can you tell whether I am a theist or an atheist? You're welcome to question me about my beliefs as much as you'd like. I'll answer honestly. Then you can tell me what I am.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I live in the us lol.

Then your statement that you don't know about the most common conception of God clearly isn't true.

Dude, you're not using the dictionary definitions....I'm not going to change definitions for some reason that isn't even clear.:p
Anyways, later nice chat.:D

I am using the dictionary definitions.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
No it's not impossible to discuss it. But here's where I see your insitance on words meaning one narrow focus. The will limit understanding to the focus. It puts blinders on, and does not allow an understanding of God to expand and grow. This is why I feel atheism is in fact, irrational. It defines the absolute as only, exclusively an anthropomorphic, mythic-eye view of God and rejects that. Well, so do I. But I believe in God.

Then you're an atheist who believes in something other than the common conception of God. There's nothing irrational about atheism. It's simple the absence of belief in a theistic god. It's based on evidence or lack thereof. Whether there is something else you want to call God is another question.

It's fine to expand and grow your thoughts. The problem is if you're going to "expand and grow" the understanding of the term "God", you're just going to create communication problems. It would be better to just use a different term. You mention "the absolute". Maybe use that instead of God, if you're not talking about an anthropomorphic theistic god. Then it leads to less confusion. What I'm doing by limiting the definition of "God" is keeping communication as clear as possible.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
You know, if someone calls themselves a 'Christian' etc., it doesn't tell me what their concept of deity is. That's why we can use these definitions in the first place, without everyone being totally confused. Condescending tone btw,...:rolleyes:

It doesn't guarantee with 100% certainty what their concept of deity is, but it comes close. If someone tells you they're Christian, you could guess that their concept of deity is the usual personal creator-god who is still involved closely in his creation, even having a set of rules for humans to follow, and you'd be right at least 95 out of a 100 times, if not more.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
So you believe in some JudgeGod who can tell us whether I am truly a conservative or truly a liberal?

I believe in applying labels consistent with reality.

I ask you again: If I say I'm a liberal and you say I'm a conservative, what am I?

I answer you again: It depends on what your beliefs are.

Sure. And to help the Nazis separate Jew from gentile.

I happen to be a coolguy. But sometimes evil people whisper among their friends that I'm actually a dweebguy.

Labels. More evil than good, I think.

We can debate whether labels are a net good or bad, but it's beside the point. The problem with the examples you keep using, like this one about being cool, is that you can simultaneously be cool and a dweeb in some ways. It's not comparable to whether or not you hold a particular belief.

I believe that it's that simple for you. But I chuckle when I hear you insist that I must either believe or else not believe. I have long since let go of thinking about belief that way.

And I chuckle when I hear you and others make ridiculous claims like this. I realize it sounds cool, but it's not meaningful in a realistic sense. You either believe God exists or you don't. At different points in time you can do different things, but you can't simultaneously hold a belief and not hold it. Just like you can't simultaneously sleep and not sleep or own a car and not own a car, etc. They are two diametrically opposed positions.

It is indeed useless.

Nope. When someone tells you they're an atheist, we both know that tells you something specific about them, namely that they don't believe in the common Yahweh/Allah type god. That's a useful piece of information.

By the way, can you tell whether I am a theist or an atheist? You're welcome to question me about my beliefs as much as you'd like. I'll answer honestly. Then you can tell me what I am.

We could do that, but it would be pointless. You're either one or the other. If you believe in God (not love or the universe or some other made-up definition, but the standard definition of God), then you're a theist. If not, you're an atheist.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Then your statement that you don't know about the most common conception of God clearly isn't true.

So you're saying I'm lying, look dude, I don't talk to people about religion irl, it really never gets past a vague description, if anything. I really don't know the 'most common' views , you're telling me, but otherwise, unless someone actually tells me their deity concept, how in the heck am I going to know that.
I think you're assuming everyone comes from the same background as you or something, but don' call me a liar or insinuate that.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
So you're saying I'm lying, look dude, I don't talk to people about religion irl, it really never gets past a vague description, if anything. I really don't know the 'most common' views , you're telling me, but otherwise, unless someone actually tells me their deity concept, how in the heck am I going to know that.
I think you're assuming everyone comes from the same background as you or something, but don' call me a liar or insinuate that.

I don't know whether it's lying or something else. But you live in America, and you've been a member of this forum for several years. It's pretty much impossible for you not to know the usual definition of God in Western cultures.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I don't know whether it's lying or something else. But you live in America, and you've been a member of this forum for several years. It's pretty much impossible for you not to know the usual definition of God in Western cultures.

I'm through defending myself against your strawman arguments, what does this have to do with your definitions anyways...
You're attacking the person not the argument.
Clearly, if the dictionaries disagree with you, most people disagree with you on the thread, may be it's telling you that your personal definitions of 'atheist' and 'theist' don't make sense.
I'm not even sure what your point is, you've gone so far off track.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
1. You say 'most believe in 'personal deity'.
Great, so what.
2. Therefore, we should change religious terminology to fit this fact.
Why? Why change the definitions? If someone is an atheist, isn't that clear?
Many people, including myself, are panentheists. And were theists, who are of various religions. What exactly is your issue with these definitions?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Then you're an atheist who believes in something other than the common conception of God.
It's still God, like a cloud is a cloud even if a child of five understands the cloud as a person in the sky. I see no reason to dumb the word God down to the lowest common-denominator. That's back-assward. The word should be used to its highest level, and when the kids grow up they begin to understand that a cloud is more than just a bunny rabbit in the sky. The word has meaning to all levels of understanding.

There's nothing irrational about atheism. It's simple the absence of belief in a theistic god. It's based on evidence or lack thereof.
The context in which I say it is irrational is that it evaluates what God is on the mythic-level depiction of God, and takes it at face value and says it does not exist without considering other points of view that are not that. When it hears them, it erroneously says "Use a different word". Why? Because it confuses you? Stop using God to mean sky-parent then and use it to express the Infinite Deep. Context will tell where your mind is at in knowing that Depth. No other word is necessary.

Should adults stop using the word love because when a four year old uses it when it doesn't even begin to come remotely close to what an adult means by love? Same difference. If you are going to make God the word to change, then I'm sure there's a long list of words, like Love, you should try to change too.

Whether there is something else you want to call God is another question.
Nope, it's nothing else. It's the same thing, just understood differently. That's simple to understand, actually.

It's fine to expand and grow your thoughts. The problem is if you're going to "expand and grow" the understanding of the term "God", you're just going to create communication problems.
Why? I know what someone means by God by how they use it. Same thing applies to countless other words people use. Don't you listen to how people use word to know where they're coming from? Why pick on the word God so much? It's not something else. It is God, not a Yeti or E.T.

It would be better to just use a different term.
No. That would just create confusion. I'm talking about God, not some watered down "soft" word to ease the knee-jerking reactions of atheists. I think they need to get over it and let the word grow up. Of course, that would require their understanding of God to have meaning to them beyond the Volcano deity forms. Personally, that's what I see the aversion to be. It's not the word God, but anything that even remotely "tastes" like God. Yes, I'm pretty sure that it.

You mention "the absolute". Maybe use that instead of God, if you're not talking about an anthropomorphic theistic god. Then it leads to less confusion. What I'm doing by limiting the definition of "God" is keeping communication as clear as possible.
Actually, people who see God in anthropomorphic terms call that the Absolute too. And they're right, actually. So using that word won't help.

Have you ever experienced what people call God? I'm not talking believing conceptually that there must be some controlling force, some "being" up there. I mean an actual, first person encounter with the transcendent? If you have, what you would describe that as? If you haven't, then I can see why God is only associated with the mythic-belief systems. It's your only experience of That. In which case, it does good for those who have such experience to use the word in context of that experience. That's the only way the word will grow. Dumping it doesn't serve anyone. We're not talking about nature in a scientific sense, or something.

The more the word God is used to talk of this "God beyond God" view of God, the less God as sky-person will be an issue. So you should encourage the use of God by those who don't think in strict anthropomorphic terms, not tell them to stop and completely give control of the word over to the mythical meaning.
 
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Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I'm through defending myself against your strawman arguments, what does this have to do with your definitions anyways...
You're attacking the person not the argument.

There is no strawman, and I'm not attacking you. You said the panentheist conception of God was the only one you knew of (or something to that effect). It's not really crucial to the argument, but it is pertinent.

Clearly, if the dictionaries disagree with you, most people disagree with you on the thread, may be it's telling you that your personal definitions of 'atheist' and 'theist' don't make sense.
I'm not even sure what your point is, you've gone so far off track.

No, we've gone off-track. I said you can't be an atheist and a theist at the same time, and you said that was false. In the process of debating that we got here.

The real point is that no matter how you want to define the terms "atheist" and "theist", you can't be both simultaneously, unless you're using inconsistent definitions. Some people say a theist is anyone who feels that something exists that is worthy of the name "God". I could buy that one. It has its merits. But then an atheist would be someone who doesn't feel that something exists that is worthy of the name "God". So, whether or not you agree with my specific definitions, the point still remains that the two terms are opposites and can't coexist in one person at one time.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
It's still God

No, it's something you call God.

like a cloud is a cloud even if a child of five understands the cloud as a person in the sky.

Except that doesn't work as an analogy. The thing you're referring to is the thing you're referring to. The only question is what to call it. In the case of God you have two different concepts, but both are being referred to by the same term.

I see no reason to dumb the word God down to the lowest common-denominator. That's back-assward.

I see no reason to consider keeping the definition narrow enough for the word to be meaningful "dumbing it down". You can still talk about your concept, but when there are so many different concepts being referred to with the same word, it only creates confusion.

The context in which I say it is irrational is that it evaluates what God is on the mythic-level depiction of God, and takes it at face value and says it does not exist without considering other points of view that are not that. When it hears them, it erroneously says "Use a different word". Why? Because it confuses you? Stop using God to mean sky-parent then and use it to express the Infinite Deep. Context will tell where your mind is at in knowing that Depth. No other word is necessary.

This misunderstands the nature and purpose of words and language. There is a hugely popular god-concept that has been the standard definition of the word "God" for hundreds or thousands of years. Many or most people in the west are brought up with only that concept of god, and so their views are centered on it, either believing in it or not.

If you want to talk about a different concept, even if it's similar, it would be better to use a different term. Not because it confuses me, but because it confuses communication.

Should adults stop using the word love because when a four year old uses it when it doesn't even begin to come remotely close to what an adult means by love? Same difference. If you are going to make God the word to change, then I'm sure there's a long list of words, like Love, you should try to change too.

Nope, not at all the same. Words can have slightly varying meanings. For instance, let's go back to "cloud". It can mean that white puffy thing in the sky, or these days it can mean a place to keep data. The difference in the situations is that doesn't make communication more difficult. It's easy to tell what you're talking about through context. With God, it does hinder communication to use it for widely varying concepts.

Nope, it's nothing else. It's the same thing, just understood differently. That's simple to understand, actually.

So, the thing you're referring to is an anthropomorphic creator god who is personally and intricately involved with humans to the point of giving us rules and judging our eternal souls based on them?

Actually, people who see God in anthropomorphic terms call that the Absolute too. And they're right, actually. So using that word won't help.

Then throw it out.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
There is no strawman, and I'm not attacking you. You said the panentheist conception of God was the only one you knew of (or something to that effect). It's not really crucial to the argument, but it is pertinent.

The 'god-concept' you are presenting as the only real definition of "Theism" is not something I was taught, so I'm 'unfamiliar' with it. That's all. I'm taking your word for it that that concept is the "most common" one held, and I'm saying 'so what'?
Furthermore, I don't think that is really 'pertinent'.
No, we've gone off-track. I said you can't be an atheist and a theist at the same time, and you said that was false. In the process of debating that we got here.
Well, I didn't say that, actually. I'm a theist, and panentheist, that's the perspective I'm coming from, that's my religious background.
So, whether or not you agree with my specific definitions, the point still remains that the two terms are opposites and can't coexist in one person at one time.
I'm not disagreeing with that. But, you seem to be arguing that panentheism means atheism, this clearly isn't the case, as I've mentioned, there are many panentheists in various religions, there is no 'contradiction' there.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
The 'god-concept' you are presenting as the only real definition of "Theism" is not something I was taught, so I'm 'unfamiliar' with it. That's all. I'm taking your word for it that that concept is the "most common" one held, and I'm saying 'so what'?
Furthermore, I don't think that is really 'pertinent'.

1) It's not something you have to be "taught". You grew up in America and have frequented a site where the god-concept I'm referring to is by far the most discussed one. It would be nearly impossible to not become at least passingly familiar with the idea.

2) It is pertinent, but not crucial.

Well, I didn't say that, actually. I'm a theist, and panentheist, that's the perspective I'm coming from, that's my religious background.

I'm not disagreeing with that. But, you seem to be arguing that panentheism means atheism, this clearly isn't the case, as I've mentioned, there are many panentheists in various religions, there is no 'contradiction' there.

If a panentheist is just a theist, then why not just call yourself a theist?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Btw, 'normally', in general terms, I'm just a 'Christian', or 'Yeshuist', or something like that. Again, I don't know what this has to do with anything.
 
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