Why denigrate?

[Vinayaka]

This reminds me of a story I was told of a Gaudiya who'd come to visit the temples at Skanda Vale (three temples, to Murugan, Maha Shakti and Vishnu) and asked, with genuine confusion, 'Why are you worshipping all these demigods? ' Haha

When I was at Tiruchendur, the very famous seaside Murugan temple ISKCONites were preaching the glories of Krishna and trying to sell 'BG As It Is' right outside the main entrance. The vast majority of Murugan bhaktars, including myself, just walked right on by without even batting an eye. Far too interested in getting darshan than to enter some crazy discussion. I did find it rather odd though.

 

[Jainarayan]

Maybe it's the Hindus you're talking to.

Must be. My temple is all-encompassing, and you really can't tell who is of what samradaya, not even by tilak. That's probably because the people are from all over India, but I'd say mostly south because of the temple style.

• All the priests chant the Sri Vishnu Sahasranama together.
• A Shaiva priest performed a Sri Satyanarayana Swamy abhishekam I was the lone attendee of.
• All the devotees run (and ( do mean run) from one side of the temple to the other from a Shiva puja to a Vishnu puja, and vice versa. If the temple were in an earthquake zone built on hydraulic stabilizers, they would kick in to compensate for the shift in weight of people going from one side to the other. It's almost comical.

I guess being used to this "equal opportunity bhakti", I can't quite get my head wrapped around this "my God can beat up your God" silliness. What, we have God punching his own lights out?

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Rig Veda does not refer to the actual demi-gods Indra, Agni or Varuna at all, but Narayana's qualities. Narayana is praised everywhere in The Vedas, the 6 hyms that you talk about praise Him as all-pervading, as that is what Visnu means.

Hindu solidarity. Vipra bahudha vadanti. Don't get into this. RigVeda does not mention Narayana at all.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I guess we keep getting into this because you keep posting atheistic views in theistic threads (i know you consider yourself a "cultural-theist" but it doesn't really count ).

I was doing nothing of the kind and then someone starts this 'demi-God' business. For me Shiva as well as Vishnu are equally worthy of worship, and I am a Rama bhakta more than any other. My mother, Sita Mata worshiped Gauri before her marriage and Lord Rama worshiped Shiva before crossing the ocean. People should not do that. We all have our 'ishta' devatas or devis. If Tirumantiram does it, then it also is wrong.

 

[Kapalika]

Interesting! Were they general Vaishnavas or Gaudiyas or both?

No idea, but one was very much saying that I should only believe "authorized texts."

Their views differed, and I don't really know the differences between the different kinds of Vaishnavas.

 

[Aupmanyav]

@Madhuri , even all 'authorised texts', if they denigrate the 'Ishta' devatas or devis of other Hindus, are wrong (at that place). They are contravening the basic premise of Hinduism. 'Iti me matah' - That is my view - be a sport.

 

[निताइ dasa]

I guess it really depends on context. Ideas should not be given up simply on the basis that they offend another group. That being said, we should not voice those ideas in a place where a large number of people could be offended. It really depends on the intent also. Many times ideas are not "denigrate" by intent, but rather they are perceived as offense by another group because of a failure to understand where the claiming is coming from.

 

[Madhuri]

I guess it really depends on context. Ideas should not be given up simply on the basis that they offend another group. That being said, we should not voice those ideas in a place where a large number of people could be offended. It really depends on the intent also. Many times ideas are not "denigrate" by intent, but rather they are perceived as offense by another group because of a failure to understand where the claiming is coming from.

That is true too, I agree, but having grown up with and spent most of my life around Gaudiya devotees, I'm aware that they can have very elevated views of themselves and very judgemental attitudes toward others. At least that seems true to the Australian devotee communities, who even judge each other and are very political. I don't think it has anything to do with Sri Chaitanya's mood or teachings but is unfortunately a culture that has developed in the community.

 

[निताइ dasa]

t least that seems true to the Australian devotee communities, who even judge each other and are very political. I don't think it has anything to do with Sri Chaitanya's mood or teachings but is unfortunately a culture that has developed in the community.

I've also felt the sharp end of the knife with this too. Recently I was preaching to an ISKCON devotee, and he was saying horrible things about my Guru Maharaj simply because He wasn't in ISKCON. Institutionalizing anything also gives rise to these problems. When we create a divide between 2 groups, it breeds with it a sense of superiority. IMO The sense of superiority is natural, but when it stops us seeing and empathizing with others, then I think it becomes a problem. But on the other hand, a large majority of these devotees don't mean it in a offending manner. That is how they understand siddhanta and they are trying to convey it. Of course there is a way of conveying it (in a humble way). That is why I am not opposed to the ideas themselves (I agree with them), but it is the manner of conveying them and context.

 

[Madhuri]

I've also felt the sharp end of the knife with this too. Recently I was preaching to an ISKCON devotee, and he was saying horrible things about my Guru Maharaj simply because He wasn't in ISKCON.

I've had the same experience. Who is your guru/sampradaya?

 

[निताइ dasa]

I've had the same experience. Who is your guru/sampradaya?

My Guru Maharaj is a Gaudiya Vaishnav from the same Vinoda-Saraswati line. In-fact He served in ISKCON for many decades. However, He left to take Diksha from Srila Bhaktishastri Parampada Maharaj (who was a Godbrother to Srila Prabhupada). He even considers Srila Prabhupada His Siksha Guru. It is same Sampradaya, I mean, we have same scriptures and siddhanta, but still for some reason there is so much sectarianism.

 

[Madhuri]

My Guru Maharaj is a Gaudiya Vaishnav from the same Vinoda-Saraswati line. In-fact He served in ISKCON for many decades. However, He left to take Diksha from Srila Bhaktishastri Parampada Maharaj (who was a Godbrother to Srila Prabhupada). He even considers Srila Prabhupada His Siksha Guru. It is same Sampradaya, I mean, we have same scriptures and siddhanta, but still for some reason there is so much sectarianism.

My guru also had a falling out with ISKCON, which caused a lot of people to leave ISKCON over the following years.
There was a time during my childhood and teenage years where people who were once close friends became very bitter toward one another due to their choice to see my guru. Most people who did so were literally banned from ISKCON, including my parents. But I've found that people in my generation, at least over here, don't care much for the politics of our parents so hopefully these childish rivalries will fade soon.

 

[निताइ dasa]

My guru also had a falling out with ISKCON, which caused a lot of people to leave ISKCON over the following years.
There was a time during my childhood and teenage years where people who were once close friends became very bitter toward one another due to their choice to see my guru. Most people who did so were literally banned from ISKCON, including my parents. But I've found that people in my generation, at least over here, don't care much for the politics of our parents so hopefully these childish rivalries will fade soon.

May I ask who was your Guru Maharaj? I am aware there were many offenses committed again many Vaishnavs, like Srila Narayana Maharaj, who only really wanted to help the devotees progress further. But you are right, it is slowly becoming better; lots of reforms happening by Nitaai's grace.

 

[Kirran]

Perhaps the reason many people get offended at what we hear from Vaishnavas is that we're largely conditioned to hear this exclusivism and dogmatism from Abrahamic faiths, so when it comes from 'closer to home', within the Hindu family, it gets under the skin a bit more.

 

[Madhuri]

May I ask who was your Guru Maharaj? I am aware there were many offenses committed again many Vaishnavs, like Srila Narayana Maharaj, who only really wanted to help the devotees progress further. But you are right, it is slowly becoming better; lots of reforms happening by Nitaai's grace.

Narayana Maharaj is my guru.

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

Vanakkam,

I am sorry you had that expérience, Sister... It is something I also see, mainly among converts in the west. I have no idea why. Is this a remnant of some abrahamic background that have been carried onto a new faith by individuals ? No idea. Same when I see many Vaisnava groups in Europe posting their "proletizing afternoon in the streets !" photos on social média.

We Hindu proletize now ?? Since when ? Since when did we let go of our "let's be tolerant and peacefuls among each others" ?

Is being Hindu just a matter of bhakti or knowledge of whatever book there is ? Does chanting your Ishta devta's thousand names every day makes you a dharmic person ?

Let us remember this, please:

Svasti prajabhyah paripalayantam nyayena margena mahi mahisah.|
Go brahmanebhyo subhamastu nityam lokah samasta sukhino bhavantu.||

Sarvesam mangalam bhavatu|
Sarvesam svastir bhavatu|
Sarvesam santir bhavatu|
Sarvesam mangalam bhavatu|

Sarve bhavantu sukhinah sarve santu niramayah|
Sarve bhadrani pasyantu ma kascid dukha bhak bhavet||

Kale varsatu parjanyah prthvi sasya salini|
Deso'yam ksobha rahito brahmanah santu nirbhayah||

Sarve taratu durgani sarvo bhadrani pasyatu|
Sarve kaman avapnotu sarva sarvatra nandatu||

Durjana sajjana bhuyat sajjano santim apnuyat|
Santo mucyeta bandhebhya muktascanya vimocayet||

Aum asato ma sad gamaya
Tamaso ma jyotir gamaya
Mrtyor ma amritam gamaya
Aum santih, santih, santih.

--------

May all the citizen enjoy wellbeing, May the administrators protect them and walk in the path of justice, May the whole universe and all spiritual aspirants have perpetual auspiciousness, May all the worlds be happy.

May all beings enjoy happy occasions
May all beings enjoy wellbeing
May all being enjoy peace
May all being enjoy wholeness
May all being enjoy good things.

May all beings be happy, May all be Free From disease
May all find what they seek, and May none experience sorrow.

May the rains fall on time and may the earth yield its produce in abondance
May this country be Free From disturbances and May the righteous ne Free From fear.

May all beings cross over From tribulations and May all attain their respective goals
May all realize their desires and May all beings at all places and times ne happy.

May the wicked become righteous and May the righteous attain peace
May the peaceful attain salvation and May they help others to be saved.

From untruth lead us to truth
From ignorance lead us to wisdom
From death lead us to immortality

Aum peace, peace, peace.

-----------

Those people should reflect on those verses and ask themselves what is it to ne hindu : is it being right, above everyone and quarreling about scriptures, or is it being humble, string, tolerant and helpful toward mankind and inhabitants of all inner and outer worlds being ?

Let those sectarian fights BS to the abrahamic faiths. Those are not welcome in our.

Aum Namah Shivaya

 

[Maija]

I think that one reason that westerners who come to Hinduism may succumb to being at first Abrahamic in nature about things is that, they may have spent decades in this lifetime, maybe even more in another lifetime, having in a certain faith.

So, you may change your beliefs and how you worship, other stuff, may not be immediate. You may not even be aware of it, of any incorrect or ignorant thought patterns until someone hopefully, kindly points it out and you make appropriate change.

Some may criticize Hindus who are evangelistic in nature but, it was they who were so enthusiastic about their love of Krishna (in my experience) & The sweetness & depth in Sanatana Dharma- they couldn't hold back, they just shared with me and help immersed me onto a path that I had just gotten started. Perhaps they saw a heart that was open whereas others held back, perhaps they just wanted to share regardless and had no idea how I would react.

And now because of them I have friends in real life that inspire me who are Shaivas, Shaktas- they have opened that door! Four instance, how honored was I when my daughter was asked to be in a Durga puja for Navratri

It is now with my friends in real life that are from all sects and religions, I am learning and asking questions to them all, no doubt still making mistakes, hopefully offending less people, but my heart is fully open.

And of course, I am so thankful to those that decided to share! There should never be shame in enthusiasm and the excitement to share about your ishta devata, it doesnt have to be pushy or unpleasant, I realize.

It is nice now when you have people recognize your love for God, they re-initiate Conversations and also they share !