Why did the early church send greetings in God, and in Jesus Christ, instead of a trinity?

[Soapy]

1. “Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:” (2 Thes 1:1)
2. “Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thes 1:2)

In 1., the apostle addresses the Father as ‘God’ and addresses Jesus Christ as ‘Lord’.

For a supposedly unbreakable doctrine expressing three persons as a one immutable, almighty worshipped being, it is odd that there the greeting is only to two persons, one only of whom is called ‘God’.

Where is the third person that makes a trinity?

Of course, this isn’t *THE ONLY* incredibly belittling error towards the third person by one only apostle to the Thessalonians because there are also these: (*Edit : error corrected by additional text*)

• “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.” (James 1:1)
• “Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness…” (Titus 1:1)
• “This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News.” (Romans 1:1)

And many more.

The last listed has the apostle Paul claiming himself as a slave of Jesus Christ … chosen by God!

Not only, again, is there only two persons mentioned, not a trinity three, but it is clear that these two are completely separate beings. One is GOD and the other is Jesus Christ.

How is it then claimed by world wide ideological groups calling themselves ‘Followers of [Jesus] Christ’ that GOD and Jesus Christ are GOD, and GOD, is three persons who are ONE IMMUTABLE GOD who must be worshipped. Yet there is no mention of a third person that would form a trinity of co-equal all powerful all knowing Being (singular!)

Did Jesus Christ ever claim that he was a ‘Three Person GOD’, with one of the other members called GOD, and that he must be worshipped as God?

Indeed, where is there an expression in the scriptures even saying to worship the third unnamed person? And, does anyone actually worship a third unnamed person of a claimed ‘holy trinity’?

And if there is no worship claim for either Jesus Christ, or the third unnamed trinity person, are the ‘Followers of [Jesus] Christ’ not guilty of sacrilege by disowning their own claims… and proudly denouncing baptism in the name of three persons by baptising in the name of ONLY ONE PERSON of the three person, only two named, one God (called ‘Father’), being entitled: “GOD”!

(Observation: God appears to be a member of the trinity God trio - which makes Jesus a recursive entity in God since he is the ‘Son of God’, and the same ‘God’ that he is the Son of… giving:

• God is “God, Jesus Christ, unnamed person”
  
• But Jesus Christ is ‘Son of God’
• So, God is “God, Son of God (who is God), unnamed other person’
• God is ‘God, God as Son, as God, ….’

Can anyone offer an explanation of this seemingly retched conundrum which passes itself off as ‘Christianity’ which purports to be what Jesus Christ taught and they follow?

 

[Teritos]

1. “Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:” (2 Thes 1:1)
2. “Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thes 1:2)

In 1., the apostle addresses the Father as ‘God’ and addresses Jesus Christ as ‘Lord’.

For a supposedly unbreakable doctrine expressing three persons as a one immutable, almighty worshipped being, it is odd that there the greeting is only to two persons, one only of whom is called ‘God’.

Where is the third person that makes a trinity?

Of course, this isn’t an incredibly belittling error towards the third person by one only apostle to the Thessalonians because there are also these:

• “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.” (James 1:1)
• “Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness…” (Titus 1:1)
• “This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News.” (Romans 1:1)

And many more.

The last listed has the apostle Paul claiming himself as a slave of Jesus Christ … chosen by God!

Not only, again, is there only two persons mentioned, not a trinity three, but it is clear that these two are completely separate beings. One is GOD and the other is Jesus Christ.

How is it then claimed by world wide ideological groups calling themselves ‘Followers of [Jesus] Christ’ that GOD and Jesus Christ are GOD, and GOD, is three persons who are ONE IMMUTABLE GOD who must be worshipped. Yet there is no mention of a third person that would form a trinity of co-equal all powerful all knowing Being (singular!)

Did Jesus Christ ever claim that he was a ‘Three Person GOD’, with one of the other members called GOD, and that he must be worshipped as God?

Indeed, where is there an expression in the scriptures even saying to worship the third unnamed person? And, does anyone actually worship a third unnamed person of a claimed ‘holy trinity’?

And if there is no worship claim for either Jesus Christ, or the third unnamed trinity person, are the ‘Followers of [Jesus] Christ’ not guilty of sacrilege by disowning their own claims… and proudly denouncing baptism in the name of three persons by baptising in the name of ONLY ONE PERSON of the three person, only two named, one God (called ‘Father’), being entitled: “GOD”!

(Observation: God appears to be a member of the trinity God trio - which makes Jesus a recursive entity in God since he is the ‘Son of God’, and the same ‘God’ that he is the Son of… giving:

• God is “God, Jesus Christ, unnamed person”
  
• But Jesus Christ is ‘Son of God’
• So, God is “God, Son of God (who is God), unnamed other person’
• God is ‘God, God as Son, as God, ….’

Can anyone offer an explanation of this seemingly retched conundrum which passes itself off as ‘Christianity’ which purports to be what Jesus Christ taught and they follow?

The Trinity is an attempt to explain what the Bible wants to tell us. Whoever reads the Bible through the Spirit of God will come to the conclusion that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are God. And through this knowledge, the concept of Trinity came into being. I am sure that the Christians of that time who used this term did not understand this concept, it was a term they used to try to explain it.
Those who reject the Trinity reject it because they do not understand it. However, one must believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved, that is what the Bible says.

If you don't believe that I AM HE, you will die in your sins.

 

[Teritos]

A Christian named Irenaeus wrote in 180 AD "Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spake to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers."

 

[exchemist]

1. “Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:” (2 Thes 1:1)
2. “Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thes 1:2)

In 1., the apostle addresses the Father as ‘God’ and addresses Jesus Christ as ‘Lord’.

For a supposedly unbreakable doctrine expressing three persons as a one immutable, almighty worshipped being, it is odd that there the greeting is only to two persons, one only of whom is called ‘God’.

Where is the third person that makes a trinity?

Of course, this isn’t an incredibly belittling error towards the third person by one only apostle to the Thessalonians because there are also these:

• “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.” (James 1:1)
• “Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness…” (Titus 1:1)
• “This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News.” (Romans 1:1)

And many more.

The last listed has the apostle Paul claiming himself as a slave of Jesus Christ … chosen by God!

Not only, again, is there only two persons mentioned, not a trinity three, but it is clear that these two are completely separate beings. One is GOD and the other is Jesus Christ.

How is it then claimed by world wide ideological groups calling themselves ‘Followers of [Jesus] Christ’ that GOD and Jesus Christ are GOD, and GOD, is three persons who are ONE IMMUTABLE GOD who must be worshipped. Yet there is no mention of a third person that would form a trinity of co-equal all powerful all knowing Being (singular!)

Did Jesus Christ ever claim that he was a ‘Three Person GOD’, with one of the other members called GOD, and that he must be worshipped as God?

Indeed, where is there an expression in the scriptures even saying to worship the third unnamed person? And, does anyone actually worship a third unnamed person of a claimed ‘holy trinity’?

And if there is no worship claim for either Jesus Christ, or the third unnamed trinity person, are the ‘Followers of [Jesus] Christ’ not guilty of sacrilege by disowning their own claims… and proudly denouncing baptism in the name of three persons by baptising in the name of ONLY ONE PERSON of the three person, only two named, one God (called ‘Father’), being entitled: “GOD”!

(Observation: God appears to be a member of the trinity God trio - which makes Jesus a recursive entity in God since he is the ‘Son of God’, and the same ‘God’ that he is the Son of… giving:

• God is “God, Jesus Christ, unnamed person”
  
• But Jesus Christ is ‘Son of God’
• So, God is “God, Son of God (who is God), unnamed other person’
• God is ‘God, God as Son, as God, ….’

Can anyone offer an explanation of this seemingly retched conundrum which passes itself off as ‘Christianity’ which purports to be what Jesus Christ taught and they follow?

You can read all about the Trinity for yourself, in countless places. I do not believe you have any interest in learning anything.

So why should anyone bother to respond?

 

[RESOLUTION]

1. “Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:” (2 Thes 1:1)
2. “Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thes 1:2)

In 1., the apostle addresses the Father as ‘God’ and addresses Jesus Christ as ‘Lord’.

For a supposedly unbreakable doctrine expressing three persons as a one immutable, almighty worshipped being, it is odd that there the greeting is only to two persons, one only of whom is called ‘God’.

Where is the third person that makes a trinity?

Of course, this isn’t an incredibly belittling error towards the third person by one only apostle to the Thessalonians because there are also these:

• “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.” (James 1:1)
• “Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness…” (Titus 1:1)
• “This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News.” (Romans 1:1)

And many more.

The last listed has the apostle Paul claiming himself as a slave of Jesus Christ … chosen by God!

Not only, again, is there only two persons mentioned, not a trinity three, but it is clear that these two are completely separate beings. One is GOD and the other is Jesus Christ.

How is it then claimed by world wide ideological groups calling themselves ‘Followers of [Jesus] Christ’ that GOD and Jesus Christ are GOD, and GOD, is three persons who are ONE IMMUTABLE GOD who must be worshipped. Yet there is no mention of a third person that would form a trinity of co-equal all powerful all knowing Being (singular!)

Did Jesus Christ ever claim that he was a ‘Three Person GOD’, with one of the other members called GOD, and that he must be worshipped as God?

Indeed, where is there an expression in the scriptures even saying to worship the third unnamed person? And, does anyone actually worship a third unnamed person of a claimed ‘holy trinity’?

And if there is no worship claim for either Jesus Christ, or the third unnamed trinity person, are the ‘Followers of [Jesus] Christ’ not guilty of sacrilege by disowning their own claims… and proudly denouncing baptism in the name of three persons by baptising in the name of ONLY ONE PERSON of the three person, only two named, one God (called ‘Father’), being entitled: “GOD”!

(Observation: God appears to be a member of the trinity God trio - which makes Jesus a recursive entity in God since he is the ‘Son of God’, and the same ‘God’ that he is the Son of… giving:

• God is “God, Jesus Christ, unnamed person”
  
• But Jesus Christ is ‘Son of God’
• So, God is “God, Son of God (who is God), unnamed other person’
• God is ‘God, God as Son, as God, ….’

Can anyone offer an explanation of this seemingly retched conundrum which passes itself off as ‘Christianity’ which purports to be what Jesus Christ taught and they follow?

Hello Soapy.

There is also the teaching from Jesus Christ the Son of God that a man can be forgiven anything but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It was not taught by the Apostles about a triune God it was a teaching adopted by the later Church. The OT was clear that there is only one God. In Luke 1 it clearly teaches the angel saying Jesus was an Holy thing and to be called the,' Son of God.' The Holy spirit is the seal that someone is in Christ and belongs to God and the person who lead the disciples. He could not come to the disciples till Christ returned. Jesus said, "My words are Spirit and they are life." So the words of God come to man via the Holy Spirit. All three play a part in the work God does among men. God in three persons rather than God being three persons.

The above can be found in the bible. It was Christ who leads men to God be removing their sin and those who believe God about his Son and what he has taught receive Gods Spirit. This is the understanding and all teachings should be checked and so people understand what is actually being taught. Acts 10 is a good place to start with what Peter says about Christ.

 

[Redemptionsong]

1. “Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:” (2 Thes 1:1)
2. “Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thes 1:2)

In 1., the apostle addresses the Father as ‘God’ and addresses Jesus Christ as ‘Lord’.

For a supposedly unbreakable doctrine expressing three persons as a one immutable, almighty worshipped being, it is odd that there the greeting is only to two persons, one only of whom is called ‘God’.

Where is the third person that makes a trinity?

Of course, this isn’t an incredibly belittling error towards the third person by one only apostle to the Thessalonians because there are also these:

• “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.” (James 1:1)
• “Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness…” (Titus 1:1)
• “This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News.” (Romans 1:1)

And many more.

The last listed has the apostle Paul claiming himself as a slave of Jesus Christ … chosen by God!

Not only, again, is there only two persons mentioned, not a trinity three, but it is clear that these two are completely separate beings. One is GOD and the other is Jesus Christ.

How is it then claimed by world wide ideological groups calling themselves ‘Followers of [Jesus] Christ’ that GOD and Jesus Christ are GOD, and GOD, is three persons who are ONE IMMUTABLE GOD who must be worshipped. Yet there is no mention of a third person that would form a trinity of co-equal all powerful all knowing Being (singular!)

Did Jesus Christ ever claim that he was a ‘Three Person GOD’, with one of the other members called GOD, and that he must be worshipped as God?

Indeed, where is there an expression in the scriptures even saying to worship the third unnamed person? And, does anyone actually worship a third unnamed person of a claimed ‘holy trinity’?

And if there is no worship claim for either Jesus Christ, or the third unnamed trinity person, are the ‘Followers of [Jesus] Christ’ not guilty of sacrilege by disowning their own claims… and proudly denouncing baptism in the name of three persons by baptising in the name of ONLY ONE PERSON of the three person, only two named, one God (called ‘Father’), being entitled: “GOD”!

(Observation: God appears to be a member of the trinity God trio - which makes Jesus a recursive entity in God since he is the ‘Son of God’, and the same ‘God’ that he is the Son of… giving:

• God is “God, Jesus Christ, unnamed person”
  
• But Jesus Christ is ‘Son of God’
• So, God is “God, Son of God (who is God), unnamed other person’
• God is ‘God, God as Son, as God, ….’

Can anyone offer an explanation of this seemingly retched conundrum which passes itself off as ‘Christianity’ which purports to be what Jesus Christ taught and they follow?

The role of the Holy Spirit is to bring a believer into the fold, into Christ. Believers form a fellowship in the Holy Spirit and they look to the head of the body, Jesus Christ. He, in turn, does the will of the Father, making the three one in Spirit.

Ephesians 4:6 refers to this relationship in the following words: 'One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all' (talking to believers in the Church).

I remember a member of a church group once saying that he couldn't understand why there weren't more hymns written about the Holy Spirit. The answer, quite simply, is that the Holy Spirit inspires hymn writers to write about Christ!

 

[Soapy]

You can read all about the Trinity for yourself, in countless places. I do not believe you have any interest in learning anything.

So why should anyone bother to respond?

You did!

I believe you are too scared to answer because any answer you give would cause you sin.

If you were an honest responder you would attempt to give a response in terms of the question asked.

Only someone in fear of their belief would refuse to educate someone who asked to be ‘educated’ even if the ‘education’ is subsequently rejected.

Afterall, I saw a question on another website asking what the square root of 11 was. Seems trivial, yes! Just use Google or a calculator .. simple!

But many REAL MATHEMATICIANS answered with solutions (corroborative in places) showing ways to work it out without a calculator… There is enthusiasm to show a response…

Did anyone say in response: ‘I’m not going to answer because it’s a stupid question which you can work out did yourself’? No!

 

[Soapy]

The role of the Holy Spirit is to bring a believer into the fold, into Christ. Believers form a fellowship in the Holy Spirit and they look to the head of the body, Jesus Christ. He, in turn, does the will of the Father, making the three one in Spirit.

Ephesians 4:6 refers to this relationship in the following words: 'One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all' (talking to believers in the Church).

I remember a member of a church group once saying that he couldn't understand why there weren't more hymns written about the Holy Spirit. The answer, quite simply, is that the Holy Spirit inspires hymn writers to write about Christ!

Just WHY aren’t there any hymns worshipping the Holy Spirit?

God inspires us through HIS Holy Spirit. But we worship God all the same!

Jesus Christ inspires us to worship GOD… to worship the Father. I’m asking why there is never a place in scriptures that says we are to worship Jesus Christ of the Holy Spirit which I read as the property (‘of God’) of God!

Can you show a verse saying worship Jesus and / or The Holy Spirit from the scriptures. I’m interested.

But please don’t show: ‘Bow the knee’ because ‘Bowing the knee’ is not worship else we are all guilty of blasphemy because we all ‘bow the knee’ to someone of high authority (The queen of England, fir instance)

I mean a verse saying we are to ‘Worship Jesus’ and ‘Worship the Holy Spirit’.

And, how are you defining ‘Worship’?

And, I need to add: How are you defining GOD?

And how is The Father and Jesus differentiated from God in the sentence:

• “Greetings from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ”

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The Trinity is an attempt to explain what the Bible wants to tell us. Whoever reads the Bible through the Spirit of God will come to the conclusion that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are God. And through this knowledge, the concept of Trinity came into being. I am sure that the Christians of that time who used this term did not understand this concept, it was a term they used to try to explain it.
Those who reject the Trinity reject it because they do not understand it. However, one must believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved, that is what the Bible says.

If you don't believe that I AM HE, you will die in your sins.

This conundrum was the principal discussion in Nicaea in AD 325 at the command of emperor Constantine. It was the fundamental debate between those following a Unitarian belief and those following the new Greek led Trinitarian belief.
History is decided by the winner, which by a very small margin was won by the Trinitarian side.
It was enforced by declaring all the bishops who took other views to be heretical. Most were either banished or killed and their teaching supressed.

From that time a majority of Christian Churches have been trinitarian in nature.

One of the clearest documents to survive from Pre Trinitarian days is the Didache. Which very clearly shows that the early Church had no concept of the trinity, but did speak of God, Jesus and the Holy spirit.

It also has no mention of the virgin Birth and many other now common beliefs.
As it predates the collation and writing of the Bible this is hardly surprising, as they only had the verbal tradition of Jesus and the Apostles teachings, and perhaps a few letters, to rely on. From what is included in the Didache it is apparent that they had no knowledge of Paul or his writings at all. However when the Didache first came into use by those early Judeo-Christian groups, there would still have been people living who had heard Jesus teach.

(The best known and accepted book covering the Didache. The text, translation, Analysis, and Commentary is by Aaron Milavec. It is available in Paperback and can often be bought second hand for as low as £7 from Abe books and from new around £15 depending on current demand.)

 

[Soapy]

Hello Soapy.

There is also the teaching from Jesus Christ the Son of God that a man can be forgiven anything but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It was not taught by the Apostles about a triune God it was a teaching adopted by the later Church. The OT was clear that there is only one God. In Luke 1 it clearly teaches the angel saying Jesus was an Holy thing and to be called the,' Son of God.' The Holy spirit is the seal that someone is in Christ and belongs to God and the person who lead the disciples. He could not come to the disciples till Christ returned. Jesus said, "My words are Spirit and they are life." So the words of God come to man via the Holy Spirit. All three play a part in the work God does among men. God in three persons rather than God being three persons.

The above can be found in the bible. It was Christ who leads men to God be removing their sin and those who believe God about his Son and what he has taught receive Gods Spirit. This is the understanding and all teachings should be checked and so people understand what is actually being taught. Acts 10 is a good place to start with what Peter says about Christ.

I’m interested in one part of your post:

• “All three play a part in the work God does among men. God in three persons rather than God being three persons.”

‘All three play a part in the work GOD does…’

Is God then a separate entity to the three? Each of the three does some part of what GOD sets them to do!

How are you defining ‘God’?

 

[Soapy]

One of the clearest documents to survive from Pre Trinitarian days is the Didache. Which very clearly shows that the early Church had no concept of the trinity, but did speak of God, Jesus and the Holy spirit.

Ummm… it also speaks of the holy spirit as being ‘of God’, ‘of the Father’, and being ‘SENT FROM the Father’ as a gift to the apostles as an empowering force just as it was put on Jesus (Anointing him with power) as it empowered the apostles also at Pentecost.

It was interesting that Jesus did not do anything of a miraculous nature until after he was ‘anointed with Holy Spirit and with power’ and was led into the wilderness to be tested if he would abuse his newly given powers - he passed every test and did not sin and aft wards ‘went about doing good healing the sick’. And the apostles also gained great powers - amazing gifts of healing, language, teaching, tremendous recall and other things that glorified the Father.

Interesting that trinity thinks that a force is a person which is the same GOD that it is the power of! And this ‘person’, although being ALMIGHTY GOD, is SENT by ALMIGHTY GOD… via Jesus Christ who was ANOINTED with GOD(?) in order to empower him (GOD) to do good!

Sorry if that sounds turgid but that’s what confuses me with the ideology of trinity. It claims that ‘God is God’ who is almighty but needs to be empowered BY GOD while all the time being GOD anyway!

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Ummm… it also speaks of the holy spirit as being ‘of God’, ‘of the Father’, and being ‘SENT FROM the Father’ as a gift to the apostles as an empowering force just as it was put on Jesus (Anointing him with power) as it empowered the apostles also at Pentecost.

It was interesting that Jesus did not do anything of a miraculous nature until after he was ‘anointed with Holy Spirit and with power’ and was led into the wilderness to be tested if he would abuse his newly given powers - he passed every test and did not sin and aft wards ‘went about doing good healing the sick’. And the apostles also gained great powers - amazing gifts of healing, language, teaching, tremendous recall and other things that glorified the Father.

Interesting that trinity thinks that a force is a person which is the same GOD that it is the power of! And this ‘person’, although being ALMIGHTY GOD, is SENT by ALMIGHTY GOD… via Jesus Christ who was ANOINTED with GOD(?) in order to empower him (GOD) to do good!

Sorry if that sounds turgid but that’s what confuses me with the ideology of trinity. It claims that ‘God is God’ who is almighty but needs to be empowered BY GOD while all the time being GOD anyway!

You are arguing about what the Bible says.
The early Church did not have the Bible it was not written yet.

But I have unitarian views, so I do not accept the Trinitarian view.
I am happy to Believe in God, Jesus and the holy Spirit.
They each have their own roles. but the same Aims. they are not the same being.

 

[exchemist]

You did!

I believe you are too scared to answer because any answer you give would cause you sin.

If you were an honest responder you would attempt to give a response in terms of the question asked.

Only someone in fear of their belief would refuse to educate someone who asked to be ‘educated’ even if the ‘education’ is subsequently rejected.

Afterall, I saw a question on another website asking what the square root of 11 was. Seems trivial, yes! Just use Google or a calculator .. simple!

But many REAL MATHEMATICIANS answered with solutions (corroborative in places) showing ways to work it out without a calculator… There is enthusiasm to show a response…

Did anyone say in response: ‘I’m not going to answer because it’s a stupid question which you can work out did yourself’? No!

Hahaha, I've lost count of the number of time someone has used the "too scared" gambit to try to get people enmeshed in some worthless argument or other. This gambit overlooks the (far more likely) possibility of (i) boredom and (ii) unwillingness to indulge a disingenuous poster.

If I thought your question was honest I would be happy to take you up. But an honest enquiry would at least show some indication of understanding how it was that the early church developed the concept of the Trinity, since this is all information that is widely available, and then would focus on specific points that in their opinion were not satisfactory.

But as it is, your approach is just like what creationists so often do, trying to make scientists jump through hoops re-explaining what is already explained elsewhere. I'm not doing that.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You could think of it as God, outside of, but the creator of the universe.
Jesus as Gods representative among men. on this local backwater of a planet.
And the holy spirit as God's all pervading presence in the Universe, through which he communicates and through which his power flows

And our Souls, as that part of us that is of God. which gives us life. And which returns to him, un-blemished by us, when we die.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Just WHY aren’t there any hymns worshipping the Holy Spirit?

God inspires us through HIS Holy Spirit. But we worship God all the same!

Jesus Christ inspires us to worship GOD… to worship the Father. I’m asking why there is never a place in scriptures that says we are to worship Jesus Christ of the Holy Spirit which I read as the property (‘of God’) of God!

Can you show a verse saying worship Jesus and / or The Holy Spirit from the scriptures. I’m interested.

But please don’t show: ‘Bow the knee’ because ‘Bowing the knee’ is not worship else we are all guilty of blasphemy because we all ‘bow the knee’ to someone of high authority (The queen of England, fir instance)

I mean a verse saying we are to ‘Worship Jesus’ and ‘Worship the Holy Spirit’.

And, how are you defining ‘Worship’?

And, I need to add: How are you defining GOD?

And how is The Father and Jesus differentiated from God in the sentence:

• “Greetings from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ”

Christians worship the Father, and the Father is in Jesus Christ without 'measure' [John 3:34]. This cannot be said of individual believers who form part of the body of Christ [Romans 12:3]. Believers within the body of Christ are only members, a part, of the whole [Romans 12:4-8].

If members of the body had perfect faith then they might reasonable claim a full measure of the Holy Spirit, but all men have sinned, and do not show the full measure of faith. Only Christ, as head of the body, has ever demonstrated perfect faith.

If you doubt that Christ is worthy of worship, then you also doubt that he is God's Son, and heir to the throne. To be God's Son, Jesus Christ must be without sin. Do you believe Jesus Christ was without sin?

 

[Teritos]

This conundrum was the principal discussion in Nicaea in AD 325 at the command of emperor Constantine. It was the fundamental debate between those following a Unitarian belief and those following the new Greek led Trinitarian belief.
History is decided by the winner, which by a very small margin was won by the Trinitarian side.
It was enforced by declaring all the bishops who took other views to be heretical. Most were either banished or killed and their teaching supressed.

From that time a majority of Christian Churches have been trinitarian in nature.

One of the clearest documents to survive from Pre Trinitarian days is the Didache. Which very clearly shows that the early Church had no concept of the trinity, but did speak of God, Jesus and the Holy spirit.

It also has no mention of the virgin Birth and many other now common beliefs.
As it predates the collation and writing of the Bible this is hardly surprising, as they only had the verbal tradition of Jesus and the Apostles teachings, and perhaps a few letters, to rely on. From what is included in the Didache it is apparent that they had no knowledge of Paul or his writings at all. However when the Didache first came into use by those early Judeo-Christian groups, there would still have been people living who had heard Jesus teach.

(The best known and accepted book covering the Didache. The text, translation, Analysis, and Commentary is by Aaron Milavec. It is available in Paperback and can often be bought second hand for as low as £7 from Abe books and from new around £15 depending on current demand.)

the virgin birth and trinity are both biblical. Read the bible and you will see it.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

the virgin birth and trinity are both biblical. Read the bible and you will see it.

The early church did not have the Bible.

 

[Brian2]

1. “Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:” (2 Thes 1:1)
2. “Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thes 1:2)

In 1., the apostle addresses the Father as ‘God’ and addresses Jesus Christ as ‘Lord’.

For a supposedly unbreakable doctrine expressing three persons as a one immutable, almighty worshipped being, it is odd that there the greeting is only to two persons, one only of whom is called ‘God’.

Where is the third person that makes a trinity?

Of course, this isn’t *THE ONLY* incredibly belittling error towards the third person by one only apostle to the Thessalonians because there are also these: (*Edit : error corrected by additional text*)

• “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.” (James 1:1)
• “Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness…” (Titus 1:1)
• “This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News.” (Romans 1:1)

And many more.

The last listed has the apostle Paul claiming himself as a slave of Jesus Christ … chosen by God!

Not only, again, is there only two persons mentioned, not a trinity three, but it is clear that these two are completely separate beings. One is GOD and the other is Jesus Christ.

How is it then claimed by world wide ideological groups calling themselves ‘Followers of [Jesus] Christ’ that GOD and Jesus Christ are GOD, and GOD, is three persons who are ONE IMMUTABLE GOD who must be worshipped. Yet there is no mention of a third person that would form a trinity of co-equal all powerful all knowing Being (singular!)

Did Jesus Christ ever claim that he was a ‘Three Person GOD’, with one of the other members called GOD, and that he must be worshipped as God?

Indeed, where is there an expression in the scriptures even saying to worship the third unnamed person? And, does anyone actually worship a third unnamed person of a claimed ‘holy trinity’?

And if there is no worship claim for either Jesus Christ, or the third unnamed trinity person, are the ‘Followers of [Jesus] Christ’ not guilty of sacrilege by disowning their own claims… and proudly denouncing baptism in the name of three persons by baptising in the name of ONLY ONE PERSON of the three person, only two named, one God (called ‘Father’), being entitled: “GOD”!

(Observation: God appears to be a member of the trinity God trio - which makes Jesus a recursive entity in God since he is the ‘Son of God’, and the same ‘God’ that he is the Son of… giving:

• God is “God, Jesus Christ, unnamed person”
  
• But Jesus Christ is ‘Son of God’
• So, God is “God, Son of God (who is God), unnamed other person’
• God is ‘God, God as Son, as God, ….’

Can anyone offer an explanation of this seemingly retched conundrum which passes itself off as ‘Christianity’ which purports to be what Jesus Christ taught and they follow?

Why the early church did that is probably so we would know whom was being spoken of and to distinguish roles.
It is true that the Father is the one true God but it is also true that the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son and the Holy Spirit is in the Father and Son.
In my understanding the Father is called the one true God because He is the source from which the Son and Spirit come. They are of the Father.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Why the early church did that is probably so we would know whom was being spoken of and to distinguish roles.
It is true that the Father is the one true God but it is also true that the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son and the Holy Spirit is in the Father and Son.
In my understanding the Father is called the one true God because He is the source from which the Son and Spirit come. They are of the Father.

And mud is clean, and dogs are cats and black is white...... What a load of codswallop.

 

[ecco]

This it what happens when people try to make sense of decisions that were made under duress by a group of men trying to reconcile two different religious concepts.

There is only one God.
The people of that God were promised a Messiah.
The Messiah is the Son of God, the Father.
Reminder: There is Only One God.
The Son (the Messiah) is part of the God/Father; indistinguishable from the God/Father.
The Holy Ghost? Well, he's the one who impregnated Mary thereby preserving the concept of a Messiah-from-a-Virgin.
This raises the question of why did God/Father not impregnate Mary Himself?


Conundrums wrapped in enigmas wrapped in "How the hell are we supposed to reconcile all of this?"


All of this, and a lot more, would have been avoided if Marcion had won out. Oh, well. To the victors...