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Why did they use a statue (idol) to save Jesus' family?
- Thread starter Betho_br
- Start date
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The idol effect is similar to the feeling one gets when looking at fine art at a museum. Top level art from any era, can move you and the best art can emotionally move almost anybody. This effect is connected to the collective unconscious mind, which is a deep level of the human psyche common to all humans. It defines our natural human propensities; human nature. The gifted artists use this to help them create and since their art is a product of the collective unconscious, common to all humans, the best art can trigger the collective unconscious within the audience; timeless feeling.
Back in ancient times, art also moved people, while idol art of spiritual figures, did the same thing. Many people mistook the art effect for a God inside the art. It became too easy to use idol art to manipulate people, such as the golden calf in the story of Moses. The golden calf was not only good art sculpture, but it was made of gold to give it a better prestige induction effect. That and a good line of bull and you could whip the mob into an angry frenzy like at a DNC hate Trump rally.
Not worshipping idols, does not mean getting rid of all the good art to avoid the art effect. Or even becoming cold to the effect. Rather it is knowing the art effect is not from a god. Rather the art talks to a deep place inside your soul, and your own soul responds. If go into a Catholic Church it is art studio or museum with the art here to touch your soul as you ponder your faith. But it is not God in the statue.
Religion is not the only place where there are idols. Culture has it own idols such as designer clothes. The prestige of designer clothes gives a prestige effect such that wearing these works of art, add a magic to the wearer. Secular idols are often more intoxicating to the believer than someone wearing a cross or having a statue of Jesus.
In secular idol worship, it is often less abbots the collective unconscious. Marketing is part of the induction effect, sort of the new artist describing his art and what he was trying to make people feel, so they can have a better art effect and idol worship session. New Autos are sold with handsome men and pretty gals to get the person to feel the magic, that will be them, after wearing the auto. Art is more natural with the best selling itself to your soul.
An interesting class of secular idols, are collectables; like a coin that won't be toss. Often what is saved and preserved gets more prestige with time, which translates via the idol effect of money; value in dollars. Enough money can make you almost a god or demon in eyes of others. The art effect is everywhere and only becomes an idol if addicted.
1 Samuel 19:13-14 NVI
Then Michal took an idol (terafin) and laid it on the bed, covering it with a garment and putting some goats’ hair at the head. When Saul sent the men to capture David, Michal said, “He is ill.”
Thank you.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
The KJV and Douay Rheims versions (the only ones I checked) don't even say "idol" but instead say "image."
13 And Michol tooke a statua* , and put it vpon the bed, and a hearie skinne of goates she layd at the head thereof, and couered it with garmentes.
14 And Saul sent serieantes, that should take away Dauid by force, and it was answered that he was sicke.
1468 This statua, or image can not importe an idol, as the same word teraphim doth. Gen. 31. for here no idolatrie at al was c&obar;mitted, but a right office done by the wife towards her husband. The same word also signifieth religious thinges belonging to Gods seruice. Osee. 3. 5. (Hosea 3-4-5)
1582 Douai Rheims Douay Rheims First Edition
The Challoner revision of the Douay-Rheims, published around 1749-1752, is a significant revision of the original Douay-Rheims version. Bishop Richard Challoner modernized the language and, in some parts, simplified the translation. In this process, he may have been indirectly influenced by the King James Version (KJV), especially by adopting some of its more familiar phrases for English-speaking readers.
Attachments
Contextually, "image" doesn't even make sense. This shows the influence of third parties on the translation ( Douay-Rheims-Challoner Bible)
It’s the same ideological trend that managed to insert into Catholic Bibles that Joseph wanted to repudiate, divorce Mary. Matthew 1:19...
They are the ones who always hated me...
Who always hated you?
The fact is that you are asking a difficult question, because the answer to this question affects many people. Many people have died over this question. Many people have refused to put gods before the LORD and have died for it. Others may have suffered for it in other ways. Some people have made themselves obnoxious because of it and have gone around telling other people their religions are false. So its not a light matter, and we cannot casually demand the answer. We may or may not get the answer. We may get a deflection. Sometimes when you ask a question that cannot be answered, the answer will be a deflection or a rabbit trail. This is considered polite in many cultures. Americans aren't used to it, but its common and is common in ancient times.
I think it comes from Exodus 20:3 which bans placing any other gods above the LORD, possibly with the LORD. This is found in Exodus 20:3. Its hard to track down what it means. It could mean several things but here are two:
Whatever it means we can see that there is an order of precedence. If for example: a god wants you (you who are following Exodus 20:3) to do something that the LORD does not want you to do, then you don't do it. That god could be a person such as a leader, or it could be a supernatural being, or it could be just words supposedly spoken by someone. It could be bad laws, court justices, mayors etc. Defining what 'god' means is up to someone else, but clearly LORD comes first, above, before and does not share space with gods.
But let us suppose that idols are not people, so lets consider the case that it is talking about some other things like credit cards or Lamborghinis. Maybe they are not gods and are real estate stake or very heavy money shaped like people or something weird that, so then what? The command implies do not bring gods to the temple or the tent of meeting. They do not belong there. Possibly they do not even belong in the camp or anywhere that the LORD might wander. They are lesser, have nothing to give. Don't use them there. I would say that this might also exclude Jews from living near to such things, whatever they are.
I wonder if Jesus interpretation of the law is that he does not like Roman coin appearing near the temple, that he is including it in his definition of graven image. Maybe it is why he chases money exchangers out. I don't know for sure.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It seems like you are actually asking two questions.
The first is in your title, "Why did they use a statue (idol) to save Jesus' family?" This story is not in the Christian Bible. It is in the Arabic Infancy Gospel, which is believed to have been written sometime between the 5th and 6th centuries CE (long long long after Jesus actually lived). It is NOT a reliable historical source, but as a work of fiction, it may still have a moral lesson or two to teach. Let's look at what it says:
In the story, the presence of the infant Jesus causes the statue to fall from its pedestal and break. Upon seeing this, a local prophetess declares that Jesus will one day cast down all the idols of Egypt. The event leads to the conversion of many in that region, who then come to honor and protect the Holy Family.
In this story, Jesus breaking the statue is a metaphor for his teachings resulting in an end to idol worship.
Now let's look at your second question: "Why do they say that idols should not be worshiped?" It's because it's a commandment in the Torah, indeed one of the ten commandments:
From Exodus 20:
God spoke all these words, saying:
I the LORD am your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, the house of bondage:
You shall have no other gods besides Me.
You shall not make for yourself a sculptured image, or any likeness of what is in the heavens above, or on the earth below, or in the waters under the earth.
You shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I the LORD your God am an impassioned God, visiting the guilt of the parents upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generations of those who reject Me,
but showing kindness to the thousandth generation of those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Here is my own take on it: Originally, this text indicated a belief that while there were many gods, the Israelites were ONLY to worship THEIR god. However, it eventually was interpreted mean that there WERE NO other gods, that these pagan deities were fictitious, so all worship should be directed to the One True God, who has no body, shape, or form.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Graven Image aka sculptured image, given the context of the verses surrounding it, refers to a 3D depiction of a god. It doesn't refer to art, even inspirational art such as what they have in catholic churches. To be an idol, and thus forbidden, the statue has to be a god. After all, it makes no sense to command against worshiping as god the Statue of Liberty, since no one does.
I'm baffled. Is there some earlier version of any of the four gospels where Joseph does NOT contemplate divorce?
Remember also that the four gospels are accepted by every Christian group, not just Catholics: Protestants (including those who identify as non-denominational), Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox.
Who? Catholics? Hmmm. I'm Jewish, but all the Catholics I've ever known in real life have always treated me well. Online is different. You get more of a mixture of both normal Catholics and the lunatic fringe. I never treat the statements of those extremists as indicative of Catholicism.
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I tried my best to research this. It was a little confusing but this is what I found:
First, let's look at the 10 commandments, which is where idolatry is actually forbidden:
Exodus 20:4 (Douay-Rheims 1592)
Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.
The only version of Exodus 20 that I could find that used the word "statua" for Exodus 20:4 was the Latin vulgate. It is from the Latin that the word statue first entered English.
Of course none of this is that important. The only important thing is what it says in Hebrew, and how closely a translation approximates that. Here is Exodus 20:4
דלֹ֣א תַֽעֲשֶׂה־לְּךָ֣ פֶ֣סֶל | וְכָל־תְּמוּנָ֡ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר בַּשָּׁמַ֣יִם | מִמַּ֡עַל וַֽאֲשֶׁר֩ בָּאָ֨רֶץ מִתַּ֜חַת וַֽאֲשֶׁ֣ר בַּמַּ֣יִם | מִתַּ֣חַת לָאָ֗רֶץ:
Here is a Jewish translation of that:
4You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.
The word in there that is in dispute is פֶּסֶל (pronounced pesel). It is related to the Hebrew verb פָּסַל (pronounced pasal), which means "to carve," "to hew," or "to shape."
Now let's turn to your actual quote, which is actually the KJV of 1 Samuel 19:13, not the Douay Rheims.
The 1592 translation of the verse is: "And Michol took a little image, and laid it in the bed, and put a pillow of goats’ hair at the head thereof, and covered it with a garment."
יגוַתִּקַּ֨ח מִיכַ֜ל אֶת־הַתְּרָפִ֗ים וַתָּ֙שֶׂם֙ אֶל־הַמִּטָּ֔ה וְאֵת֙ כְּבִ֣יר הָֽעִזִּ֔ים שָֹ֖מָה מְרַֽאֲשֹׁתָ֑יו וַתְּכַ֖ס בַּבָּֽגֶד:
Jewish translation:
13And Michal took the teraphim, and put them into the bed, and she put a goatskin at its head, and covered it with a garment.
The word in question here is "terefet" (תֶּרֶפֶת). Terephim is the plural. הַ (ha) designates a specific one, like the word "the" in English. This term generally refers to a household idol or a figurine used in idol worship. In other translations, it is often rendered as "image" or "idol," but is NOT the same word as that in the 10 commandments.
That's probably more than you ever wanted to know about Hebrew words for idols.
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Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Sorry you feel that way. Oh by the way, the NIV does say divorce but the Douay Rheims does not.
Yes.