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Why did we go over there?

spacemonkey

Pneumatic Spiritualist
Moon Woman said:
Easily enough said, hindsight being 20/20. I find it disengenous the number of left leaning politicians and talking heads who have spent the last several years distancing them from their own historical participation in the events as they unfolded over a period of years.

Be that as it may: the op question regarding why we are there and some of the incredibly biased and uninformed responses have been thoroughly addressed.

The fact remains the acts of the current administration were predicated upon historial events as laid out in posts #29, #30, and #34, specifically numerous UN resolutions and the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Clinton Administration) and not in a vacuum as some would have us believe.

The Clinton administration was not the one who ordered the invasion. Clinton was handed this mess by Bush's father and he managed it for 8 years without starting an all out war. Yes, their may have been existing legislature supporting regime change, but it was the Bush administration that manipulated facts and capitalized on American fears after 9/11 in order to invade a country that had been doing nothing differant then what it had been up to that point.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Moon Woman said:
Easily enough said, hindsight being 20/20.

What hindsight? Have you read Bush, Sr.'s comments on why he didn't do it? That was foresight. It's something his son lacks.

Moon Woman said:
I find it disengenous the number of left leaning politicians and talking heads who have spent the last several years distancing them from their own historical participation in the events as they unfolded over a period of years.

I opposed it from the outset.

[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]Excerpt from "Why We Didn't Remove Saddam" by George Bush [Sr.] and Brent Scowcroft, Time (2 March 1998):[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]While we hoped that popular revolt or coup would topple Saddam, neither the U.S. nor the countries of the region wished to see the breakup of the Iraqi state. We were concerned about the long-term balance of power at the head of the Gulf. Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome.[/FONT]
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
okay dopp. Fine. While I am impressed with the size of your font, the remarks contained therein are years removed from the events we are discussing, and do not reflect the progression of events as related in my previous posts. They also may be considered biased considering the source and what we may assume would be his concern for his personal legacy, how history paints his actions.

Nor does it thoroughly answer the op question.

I stand by what was posted and as yet haven't seen a credible rebuttal.
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
spacemonkey said:
The Clinton administration was not the one who ordered the invasion. Clinton was handed this mess by Bush's father and he managed it for 8 years without starting an all out war. Yes, their may have been existing legislature supporting regime change, but it was the Bush administration that manipulated facts and capitalized on American fears after 9/11 in order to invade a country that had been doing nothing differant then what it had been up to that point.

Short on facts, long on rhetoric. Why are we there?

The fact remains the acts of the current administration were predicated upon historial events as laid out in posts #29, #30, and #34, specifically numerous UN resolutions and the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Clinton Administration) and not in a vacuum as some would have us believe.
 

spacemonkey

Pneumatic Spiritualist
Moon Woman said:
Short on facts, long on rhetoric. Why are we there?

The fact remains the acts of the current administration were predicated upon historial events as laid out in posts #29, #30, and #34, specifically numerous UN resolutions and the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Clinton Administration) and not in a vacuum as some would have us believe.

Perhaps you should read every post before posting yourself. I gave the reason why we are there in post #18, everything I've posted since then has been in response to you.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Moon Woman said:
While I am impressed with the size of your font, the remarks contained therein are years removed from the events we are discussing,.

Okay, how about Brent Scowcroft, 2002, "Don't Attack Sadaam" right before the invasion?

This is who Scowcroft is according to Wiki:
Brent Scowcroft (born March 19, 1925 in Ogden, Utah) was the United States National Security Advisor under Presidents Gerald Ford and George H. W. Bush and a Lieutenant General in the United States Air Force. He also served as Military Assistant to President Richard Nixon and as Deputy Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs in the Nixon and Ford administrations. He also served as Chairman of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board under President George W. Bush from 2001 to 2005.

Prior to the invasion he wrote the following. For convenience, I've highlighted all the things he correctly predicted or that were confirmed by the 9.11 commission or other intelligence reports since the invasion.

We need to analyze the relationship between Iraq and our other pressing priorities -- notably the war on terrorism -- as well as the best strategy and tactics available were we to move to change the regime in Baghdad.

Saddam's strategic objective appears to be to dominate the Persian Gulf, to control oil from the region, or both.

That clearly poses a real threat to key U.S. interests. But there is scant evidence to tie Saddam to terrorist organizations, and even less to the Sept. 11 attacks. Indeed Saddam's goals have little in common with the terrorists who threaten us, and there is little incentive for him to make common cause with them.

He is unlikely to risk his investment in weapons of mass destruction, much less his country, by handing such weapons to terrorists who would use them for their own purposes and leave Baghdad as the return address. Threatening to use these weapons for blackmail -- much less their actual use -- would open him and his entire regime to a devastating response by the U.S. While Saddam is thoroughly evil, he is above all a power-hungry survivor.

Saddam is a familiar dictatorial aggressor, with traditional goals for his aggression. There is little evidence to indicate that the United States itself is an object of his aggression. Rather, Saddam's problem with the U.S. appears to be that we stand in the way of his ambitions. He seeks weapons of mass destruction not to arm terrorists, but to deter us from intervening to block his aggressive designs.

Given Saddam's aggressive regional ambitions, as well as his ruthlessness and unpredictability, it may at some point be wise to remove him from power. Whether and when that point should come ought to depend on overall U.S. national security priorities. Our pre-eminent security priority -- underscored repeatedly by the president -- is the war on terrorism. An attack on Iraq at this time would seriously jeopardize, if not destroy, the global counterterrorist campaign we have undertaken.

The United States could certainly defeat the Iraqi military and destroy Saddam's regime. But it would not be a cakewalk. On the contrary, it undoubtedly would be very expensive -- with serious consequences for the U.S. and global economy -- and could as well be bloody. In fact, Saddam would be likely to conclude he had nothing left to lose, leading him to unleash whatever weapons of mass destruction he possesses.

Israel would have to expect to be the first casualty, as in 1991 when Saddam sought to bring Israel into the Gulf conflict. This time, using weapons of mass destruction, he might succeed, provoking Israel to respond, perhaps with nuclear weapons, unleashing an Armageddon in the Middle East. Finally, if we are to achieve our strategic objectives in Iraq, a military campaign very likely would have to be followed by a large-scale, long-term military occupation.

But the central point is that any campaign against Iraq, whatever the strategy, cost and risks, is certain to divert us for some indefinite period from our war on terrorism. Worse, there is a virtual consensus in the world against an attack on Iraq at this time. So long as that sentiment persists, it would require the U.S. to pursue a virtual go-it-alone strategy against Iraq, making any military operations correspondingly more difficult and expensive. The most serious cost, however, would be to the war on terrorism. Ignoring that clear sentiment would result in a serious degradation in international cooperation with us against terrorism. And make no mistake, we simply cannot win that war without enthusiastic international cooperation, especially on intelligence.

Possibly the most dire consequences would be the effect in the region. The shared view in the region is that Iraq is principally an obsession of the U.S. The obsession of the region, however, is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If we were seen to be turning our backs on that bitter conflict -- which the region, rightly or wrongly, perceives to be clearly within our power to resolve -- in order to go after Iraq, there would be an explosion of outrage against us. We would be seen as ignoring a key interest of the Muslim world in order to satisfy what is seen to be a narrow American interest.

Even without Israeli involvement, the results could well destabilize Arab regimes in the region, ironically facilitating one of Saddam's strategic objectives. At a minimum, it would stifle any cooperation on terrorism, and could even swell the ranks of the terrorists. Conversely, the more progress we make in the war on terrorism, and the more we are seen to be committed to resolving the Israel-Palestinian issue, the greater will be the international support for going after Saddam.

If we are truly serious about the war on terrorism, it must remain our top priority. However, should Saddam Hussein be found to be clearly implicated in the events of Sept. 11, that could make him a key counterterrorist target, rather than a competing priority, and significantly shift world opinion toward support for regime change.

In any event, we should be pressing the United Nations Security Council to insist on an effective no-notice inspection regime for Iraq -- any time, anywhere, no permission required. On this point, senior administration officials have opined that Saddam Hussein would never agree to such an inspection regime. But if he did, inspections would serve to keep him off balance and under close observation, even if all his weapons of mass destruction capabilities were not uncovered. And if he refused, his rejection could provide the persuasive casus belli which many claim we do not now have. Compelling evidence that Saddam had acquired nuclear-weapons capability could have a similar effect.

In sum, if we will act in full awareness of the intimate interrelationship of the key issues in the region, keeping counterterrorism as our foremost priority, there is much potential for success across the entire range of our security interests -- including Iraq. If we reject a comprehensive perspective, however, we put at risk our campaign against terrorism as well as stability and security in a vital region of the world.

 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
beckysoup61 said:
From what I remember, about 5 or so years ago, we went over there because of WMD. As to my current knowledge we never found any.

So why did we really go over there? (I know it isn't for those pesky WMD's that like to runaway and hide when we come!)

I've never had trouble accepting that the war has always been about terrorism and not about weapons of mass destruction. However, just because we haven't found weapons of mass destruction, doesn't mean that there weren't any. Saddam Hussein WAS a weapon of mass destruction...all of the innocent people he slaughtered...

You're never going to hear about the positives that have occurred as a result of the war because media...in general is anti-Bush and incredibly liberal/anti-war.

My father in law is a retired Colonel. He was stationed at the Pentagon when the planes hit. Ask him what he thinks of the war...ask his colleagues. Ask the men and women who are actually over there fighting.

You'll be surprised at who is actually in SUPPORT of the war efforts, probably because all you ever hear and see on the news and in the papers and on the internet...are anti-war and anti-Bush sentiments.

My question to those who are so bent out of shape over the whole Weapons of Mass Destruction deal is...WHAT WOULD YOU PROPOSE?

Should we have rolled over and played dead when terrorists killed innocent Americans in the name of terror and hatred? Should we have ignored Saddam Hussein and allowed him to continue his reign of hatred?

What should we have done?

You know what my hunch is? Had we done NOTHING and another plane hit an American building...the same people who are so infuriated over the war would turn around and blame Bush for not doing SOMETHING about it...

I don't think anyone is ever going to be happy and frankly, I don't think that Bush is the greatest President but I support him for standing up and protecting our country. When Clinton had the opportunity to DO SOMETHING...that could have nabbed Bin Laden...he chose to do NOTHING.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
dawny0826 said:
Should we have rolled over and played dead when terrorists killed innocent Americans in the name of terror and hatred?

Non sequitor. It is established beyond reasonable dispute (even Bush admits it) that Iraq and Sadaam had nothing to do with Al Queada or 9/11.
 

standing_alone

Well-Known Member
Dawny, the problem is that Iraq was not in any way responsible for 9/11. Saddam being a really bad guy is not justification for the war. There are many bad dictators in the world. The reason we became concerned with Iraq is what we could get out of it - that's why we chose to bring our "democracy"-spreading campaign (which really is just window-dressing) there. That's how foreign policy typically works - What will we get out of it? What will it do for us?
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
doppelgänger said:
Non sequitor. It is established beyond reasonable dispute (even Bush admits it) that Iraq and Sadaam had nothing to do with Al Queada or 9/11.

I don't think it really matters. I'm an American who doesn't care that the war wasn't about weapons. It doesn't bother me one bit.

I also believe that the war efforts are just.

That's my opinion. Take it or leave it.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
standing_alone said:
Dawny, the problem is that Iraq was not in any way responsible for 9/11. Saddam being a really bad guy is not justification for the war. There are many bad dictators in the world. The reason we became concerned with Iraq is what we could get out of it - that's why we chose to bring our "democracy"-spreading campaign (which really is just window-dressing) there. That's how foreign policy typically works - What will we get out of it? What will it do for us?

I feel differently. I feel that we were totally justifed to enter Iraq. And I have no problem with the fact that we invaded Iraq, knowing that Saddam wasn't responsible for 9/11.

I feel that Saddam himself was a weapon of mass destruction.
 

standing_alone

Well-Known Member
dawny0826 said:
I feel differently. I feel that we were totally justifed to enter Iraq. And I have no problem with the fact that we invaded Iraq, knowing that Saddam wasn't responsible for 9/11.

I feel that Saddam himself was a weapon of mass destruction.

What justifies the war in Iraq?
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
standing_alone said:
What justifies the war in Iraq?

I feel that fighting for the freedom of Iraqis is a justifiable cause. Ending the reign of Saddam was reason enough, in my opinion, to go to war.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
dawny0826 said:
I don't think it really matters.

It matters, because you tried to justify the invasion of Iraq on the untenable grounds that Sadaam was a cause of terrorist attacks on U.S. citizens. Years of searching for evidence to prove that claim have come up empty. And this goes back to the OP, because Bush and Cheney partly "sold" the war to the American public by implying that Sadaam was responsible for 9.11. Bush still ocassionally forgets and does it. Just a month ago he was caught doing it by a reporter and had to correct himself.

dawny0826 said:
Are you going to say that Saddam Hussein wasn't a possible threat to the US?

I'm going to say he was unlikely to be a significant threat to the U.S. Scowcroft says essentially the same thing in the piece I quoted from.

dawny0826 said:
That's my opinion. Take it or leave it.

Your opinion is your opinion. But it is a matter of fact that there is no evidence that Sadaam had anything to do with 9/11.
 

standing_alone

Well-Known Member
dawny0826 said:
I feel that fighting for the freedom of Iraqis is a justifiable cause. Ending the reign of Saddam was reason enough, in my opinion, to go to war.

But do you really think that the Iraqis are more free now? Iraq is in ruins. If we really cared about spreading democracy, why did we pick Iraq over other dictatorships? Answer: Because the American public would buy the reasons for war because of 9/11 (little resistance at home) and the United States would benefit from the war. This isn't a war about freedom or protecting America.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
It matters, because you tried to justify the invasion of Iraq on the untenable grounds that Sadaam was a cause of terrorist attacks on U.S. citizens.

I worded my post poorly. That's not how I feel.

Years of searching for evidence to prove that claim have come up empty. And this goes back to the OP, because Bush and Cheney partly "sold" the war to the American public by implying that Sadaam was responsible for 9.11. Bush still ocassionally forgets and does it. Just a month ago he was caught doing it by a reporter and had to correct himself.

All I'm saying, is that I don't care what the official cause for this war was. I feel it's justified.

I'm going to say he was unlikely to be a significant threat to the U.S. Scowcroft says essentially the same thing in the piece I quoted from.

If he was a threat to neighboring countries...in essence, he is a threat to the U.S. We'd been to war with him before.

Your opinion is your opinion. But it is a matter of fact that there is no evidence that Sadaam had anything to do with 9/11.

I understand and I'm stating that the facts do not change my opinion about the war. The cause and reasons matter not to me.

The Iraqi people have the opportunity to be a free people. And THAT is justification enough for me.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
standing_alone said:
But do you really think that the Iraqis are more free now? Iraq is in ruins. If we really cared about spreading democracy, why did we pick Iraq over other dictatorships? Answer: Because the American public would buy the reasons for war because of 9/11 (little resistance at home) and the United States would benefit from the war. This isn't a war about freedom or protecting America.

Iraq was in ruins before.

Then let me ask you this, Alyssa. No one has answered my question.

What SHOULD Bush have done after 9/11? Saddam and war causes aside...
 

standing_alone

Well-Known Member
dawny0826 said:
Iraq was in ruins before.

But it wasn't on the brink of civil war.

dawny0826 said:
Since obviously, you're not in favor of the war...what should Bush have done after 9/11? What should have been done?

Certainly not attack Iraq. Iraq wasn't responsible for the terrorist attacks on our country. We can't afford to be fighting two wars at a time, we are learning. We should have went after the groups involved in the terrorist attacks - but this thread is why we are in Iraq, not what Bush should have done after 9/11. It's obvious Saddam isn't responsible in any way for the terrorist attacks, it's pretty clear Saddam wasn't a threat to the United States, so why did we go into Iraq? Because of what we could get out of it. Not to spread democracy, not to protect our freedom, not for any touchy-feely American-flag-wrapped window-dressing we were given.
 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
Just to clarify, technically the First Gulf War never ended. There was never a formal surrender, only a tentative ceasefire that would be kept with the understanding that the Iraqi government would comply with all UN resolutions. They did not, not for several years, and so once there was a change in policy involving terrorist states (i.e. those who harbor or support terrorism, which clearly Saddam did) it was decided that more forceful action was needed. Just because BJ Clinton didn't have the intestinal fortitude to do something more forceful to Saddam when he had the chance, doesn't mean that the reason we went to Iraq was because of anything so cloke and dagger as what has been mentioned in this thread so far. It is far simpler. He was a bad guy, we are at war with terrorists and those that harbor and support terrorists, Saddam is a son of a *****, so we took him out. The world is a better place without he and his cronies running things, and will be much better off when fascists like him are dealt with.
 
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