Kolibri
Well-Known Member
1) there was no 'apple'
2) there are no scriptures cited in the link to support any of it.
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You may need to flesh out your statement about Adam and Even fulfilling their original purpose. Are you saying that their purpose was to leave the garden? I personally do not see that as possible. Their stated purpose was Ge 1:28. Leaving the Garden created a detour, it was not the purpose. Ge 3:15 was the solution to the detour. And the sacred secret about this prophesy was progressively revealed throughout history.
Satan gets very little attention in the Hebrew portion of the Bible. Most of which was in the first 2 chapters of Job. There is one instance at 1 Chronicles 21:1 and he is also mentioned in Zechariah 3:1,2. It is in these places where there is use of the definite article ha before sa-tan' to show it is a title-name. All 3 of these areas put Satan in an unfavorable light. And while the account in Job might be construed to be Satan working for God. Zechariah points to a completely different conclusion.
"And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of Jehovah, and Satan was standing at his right hand to resist him. Then the angel of Jehovah said to Satan: 'May Jehovah rebuke you, O Satan, yes, may Jehovah, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this one a burning log snatched out of the fire?'" - Zechariah 3:1,2
And the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to till the soil (which according to 2:5 was his purpose all along), whence he had been taken.
Genesis 2:5 states: "Now no tree of the field was yet on the earth, neither did any herb of the field yet grow, because the Lord God had not brought rain upon the earth, and there was no man to work the soil." The stage has been set, and then creation begins. This implies that, according to the story, man's purpose is to till the land. Therefore, this is not punishment, but man finally fulfilling his purpose in creation. Note that the first thing they notice when they gain knowledge is their own nudity. They now have a sexual awareness. They are then taken from a childlike, edenic existence into the real world of adult responsibilities. It seems more a rite of passage, if you will - from childhood, to adolescence (knowledge and budding sexuality), into adulthood (labor and childbirth).
Side note, I specifically chose Genesis 2 because according to the documentary hypothesis this is the older creation myth. Genesis 2 is assumed to have been from around 950 BCE and Genesis 1 is estimated to be from around 400 BCE.
Their purpose was to till the land.
The idea of satan and the role he currently takes within Christianity evolved over time.
I once burned myself (as a child) after my mother told me not to touch the stove. It was my own fault. We all do see things differently.Eh, not everyone sees it the same. Intelligence I see as our salvation, and properly directed, the last thing we should be guilty about.
The Zechariah quote doesn't put Ha Soton in a bad light, it simply provides a defense attorney to counter the claims of the prosecuting attorney with God acting as the defense attorney. The accusation against the high priest would have been about his allowing his sons to intermarry. (Ezra 10:18) God defends Joshua and touts his (Joshua's) merits as a righteous man, referencing a story of Joshua's being cast into fire and saved.You may need to flesh out your statement about Adam and Even fulfilling their original purpose. Are you saying that their purpose was to leave the garden? I personally do not see that as possible. Their stated purpose was Ge 1:28. Leaving the Garden created a detour, it was not the purpose. Ge 3:15 was the solution to the detour. And the sacred secret about this prophesy was progressively revealed throughout history.
Satan gets very little attention in the Hebrew portion of the Bible. Most of which was in the first 2 chapters of Job. There is one instance at 1 Chronicles 21:1 and he is also mentioned in Zechariah 3:1,2. It is in these places where there is use of the definite article ha before sa-tan' to show it is a title-name. All 3 of these areas put Satan in an unfavorable light. And while the account in Job might be construed to be Satan working for God. Zechariah points to a completely different conclusion.
"And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of Jehovah, and Satan was standing at his right hand to resist him. Then the angel of Jehovah said to Satan: 'May Jehovah rebuke you, O Satan, yes, may Jehovah, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this one a burning log snatched out of the fire?'" - Zechariah 3:1,2
1) there was no 'apple'
2) there are no scriptures cited in the link to support any of it.
"It hath been said, that there is of nothing so much in hell as of self-will. The which is true, for there is nothing else there than self-will, and if there were no self-will, there would be no Devil and no hell. When it is said that Lucifer fell from Heaven, and turned away from God and the like, it meaneth nothing else than that he would have his own will, and would not be at one with the Eternal Will. So was it likewise withAdam in Paradise. And when we say Self-will, we mean, to will otherwise than as the One and Eternal Will of God willeth."
Theologia Germanica
It is a little bit misleading but spirited people generally can work things out without instruction hence eden,heaven and so on during a journey through life.
All people understand these things at their own level or rather, like the Book Of Job, the central character is subject to some incident and then the curtain rises on real human nature, at least for people who can dispense with the surface narrative.
Just because there is free will does not mean we were destined to have resisters and slanderers. But you are saying self-will, not free will. If you are merely saying independence, then I can concede your point.
The point is that as long as you are not trying to make sense of the surface narrative with a snake,a tree and a hapless individual and treat the text on its own terms then things start to move as they are supposed to. The same with the fantastic ages of the 10 Patriarchs and the bridging period from Adam to Noah -
The Inner Reaches of Outer Space: Metaphor as Myth and as Religion - Joseph Campbell - Google Books
Wonderful break with Enoch with his lifespan of 365 years mirroring 365 days but you have to take these things as artist,poet,musician or any endeavor which involves tapping in with the creative spirit. You see we are not so far away from Adam,Eden or the wonderful author of Genesis.
What is fantastic about the ages? Since man was so genetically close to perfection, would not these years be plausible? And did not even Methuselah die within a day according to how Jehovah counts time? (Ps 90:4; 2 Pe 3:8) If one tried to count the years as months, some of these men would have become fathers way before puberty. Look at how late we reach our prime and how early we die. Do not animals have a much longer time to spend in their adult years in comparison to their formulative ones? Are we not also made of flesh?
What is fantastic about the ages? Since man was so genetically close to perfection, would not these years be plausible?