• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?
@paarsurrey can assume that when others assume that no gods exist until they are proven to exist.

It is the assumption of the non-believers that G-d doesn't exist, I know One G-d exists for sure.
Every person, even the Atheist (et al) has to assume "some thing always existed", why they sit pretty and ask others to prove, while theirs is the most meritless claim, right, please??

Regards
 
Last edited:

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
There was an analogy of balloon to the BB.

if you only focus on the surface area of the balloon, you would notice that balloon deflated of air, will have small surface area. By slowly balloon with air, the surface area will slowly increase. It will double from its original size, triple, quadruple, etc, the surface area of the balloon will also increase, as it being inflated.

The balloon expanded, as it was being inflated. Sure, the inflating balloon will take up some space around the balloon, but I just wanted you to only focus on the balloon itself. The balloon will expand or contract, as it being inflated or deflated, respectively. It size and shape will increase or decrease.

Now, imagine the universe being like a balloon in the above analogy. The size of the universe will expand or contract. The Big Bang theory is just focusing on the observable universe, not whatever outside of the observations.

Unlike the universe, the balloon has critical limits as to the size it can reach, so the balloon will pop. There are still a lot of mysteries about the universe, things we don’t know about, nor understand.

We don’t if the universe have any limit. It might continually expand infinitely. Or it might one day start to contract, thereby the universe would collapse upon itself. We simply don’t know.

While the technology, like the Voyager 1 & 2, Hubble, WMAP, Planck, JWST, etc, provide us with enormous numbers of discoveries , and providing insights about universe, these technologies all have their limits, so it often come with more questions than answers.

Your assertions that the universe must expand either to “something”, or to “nothing”, is one of those questions that are outside the scope of the Big Bang theory…and not really relevant, especially when you considered that the universe is expanding faster than what our limited technology can observe.

Meaning, if we don’t build even better technology than the JWST, then the very distant galaxies that we can observe today with the JWST, might not be there 20 or 50 years from now, because the expansion of the universe will push these galaxies beyond our sight.

while the universe appears to have no limits (for expansion), there are limits to our technology.
You are being evasive, we know that the surface of the balloon is expanding into air, what is the BB universe expanding into?
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
The problem here is, we know galaxies are moving away from each other, and we know this process appears to be isotropic, but we don’t really know the full extent of the implications of this. The standard model of cosmology is incomplete, and there is no consensus about whatever temporal or spatial boundaries the universe may have. Even the word ‘universe’ is ambiguous; to a philosopher it generally means the totality of everything, to a cosmologist it means the observable the universe, the limitations of which are defined (but not conclusively) by Special Relativity.

No one knows, in other words, if the universe is infinite or not, nor if any infinity exists except as an abstraction.
As I have explained to others, there is no nothing, non-existence does not exist, the universe is infinite, end of story!
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
That assertion or assumption haven’t been tested and verified…yet.

Until it has been tested & verified, such assumption is just speculation.

Mass & energy are dependent on the Universe itself.
As I have shown logically, there is no nothing, non-existence does not exist, the universe is infinite, no argument unless you can prove to me that non-existence exists.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
As I have explained to others, there is no nothing, non-existence does not exist, the universe is infinite, end of story!


Except that finite and infinite, like something and nothing, are concepts devised by humans; while space and time are characteristics of our universe. So absent of human awareness, and beyond the observable universe - if there is a beyond - these terms have neither significance nor referent.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?
@paarsurrey can assume that when others assume that no gods exist until they are proven to exist.
It is the assumption of the non-believers that G-d doesn't exist, I know One G-d exists for sure.
Every person, even the Atheist (et al) has to assume "some thing always existed", why they sit pretty and ask others to prove, while theirs is the most meritless claim, right, please??
It certainly does seem to be without merit.
@ Gnostic: "You are being evasive, we know that the surface of the balloon is expanding into air, what is the BB universe expanding into?"
Who created that the BB Universe is expanding into? It has no place/space to expand into, right, please?
One G-d exists without doubt:
14:11
Their Messengers said, ‘Are you in doubt concerning Allah, Maker of the heavens and the earth? He calls you that He may forgive you your sins, and grant you respite till an appointed term.’ They said, ‘You are but men like ourselves; you desire to turn us away from that which our fathers used to worship. Bring us, then, a clear proof.’
Right?

Regards
__________________
Original Arabic narration/text from Muhammad's time, is below:-

14:11
قَالَتۡ رُسُلُہُمۡ اَفِی اللّٰہِ شَکٌّ فَاطِرِ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالۡاَرۡضِ ؕ یَدۡعُوۡکُمۡ لِیَغۡفِرَ لَکُمۡ مِّنۡ ذُنُوۡبِکُمۡ وَیُؤَخِّرَکُمۡ اِلٰۤی اَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّی ؕ قَالُوۡۤا اِنۡ اَنۡتُمۡ اِلَّا بَشَرٌ مِّثۡلُنَا ؕ تُرِیۡدُوۡنَ اَنۡ تَصُدُّوۡنَا عَمَّا کَانَ یَعۡبُدُ اٰبَآؤُنَا فَاۡتُوۡنَا بِسُلۡطٰنٍ مُّبِیۡنٍ ﴿۱۱
 
Last edited:

gnostic

The Lost One
You are being evasive, we know that the surface of the balloon is expanding into air, what is the BB universe expanding into?

You are ignoring that I have been telling you just focus on the balloon itself - just the balloon surface - as it inflates or deflates, and nothing else. As the balloon expands contracts, so are the space of the balloon.

for instances, if you were to draw some dots on completely deflated balloons, you will note the space between these dots. These dots are meant to represent each galaxies.

inflate the balloon, the space between these dots would seem to move from each others.

So assuming the balloon is the “universe“, and each of these dots are different “galaxies”, then the expansion of the universe (balloon), would cause the galaxies to move away from one another

the problem is you are focusing everything but the balloon, which would defeat the purpose of this analogy.

it is the universe that meant to everything…so in the Big Bang theory, there are “no outside” of the universe…just as there are “no before” the Big Bang.

The only “outside of the universe”, if you are considering the Multiverse model.

And there are “no before the Big Bang“, unless you thinking of (various versions of) the Cyclical Universe model, unofficially known as the Big Bounce.

The problems with these two alternative models of cosmology, they untested, and due to the limitations of our technology, these models are untestable. While both models respectively, theoretical (or mathematically) “possible”, experimentally (or evidently) “improbable”.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
As I have explained to others, there is no nothing, non-existence does not exist, the universe is infinite, end of story!

And you are not paying attention to what I am saying.

I have never proposed there being “nothing”.

I kept telling you that the universe always have “something”.

In fact, let me rephrase what I said in the above sentence:

the Universe is EVERYTHING.


The Universe cannot have “nothingness”.

There are also “no outside the universe”. The Big Bang theory doesn’t propose there being anything “outside of the universe”.

I believe that @Polymath257 have said this before. The “expansion of the universe” isn’t expanding into nothingness. The Universe itself is expanding, which means that “space” itself is expanding.

The Universe and “space” are one.
 
Last edited:

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You are being evasive, we know that the surface of the balloon is expanding into air, what is the BB universe expanding into?
The universe is not expanding into anything. You are the one making the mistake of assuming that it has to do so. Do you understand the error of reasoning using Newtonian physics? The balloon is just an analogy. You cannot take analogies to far. Its purpose was to get you to understand how the universe can expand "faster than the speed of light" without breaking any laws of physics.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...

it is the universe that meant to everything…so in the Big Bang theory, there are “no outside” of the universe…just as there are “no before” the Big Bang.

...

Okay, has this in fact been tested or it is derived from the math in the theory?
 
Last edited:

gnostic

The Lost One
Who created that the BB Universe is expanding into? It has no place/space to expand into, right, please?

like @Ben Dhyan, you don’t understand the BB theory.

How do you even challenge something that you don’t understand?

Try to read the actual source, do some research on the actual subject, or ask questions if you don’t understand.

Don’t talk about something, like make declarations about something that you don’t understand. You will only make a fool of yourself when you challenge anything that you are clueless about.
 
Top