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Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Astronomers refer to the sky seen from the southern hemisphere as the 'southern sky', it is a fact. The southern direction does not stop at the south pole, and fyi, the north direction does not end at the north pole. And east and west directions also have no end point. Do you understand?

exactly my point, that astronomers are also people and use colloaquial definitions to make their points understandable to those who would not recognize the terminology that they use is in no way support for your reanalysis of what they are saying just because they use words that have some meaning to you.

They are not claiming a south to the universe, only a place that the average human understands it from their minuscule understanding.

Given our understanding of the universe, the concept of a Cartesian origin is invalid even if it makes "common sense"
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
There was no before the Big Bang ( in the standard model). Even defining “before” is impossible: the time coordinate cannot be extended further back.
There is the scientific definition of time (used in 'the standard model'), which is defined
relative to space.

There is also philosophical time, which is NOT defined relative to space. :)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
And you do not understand what is being explained to you, but that's ok.
No, that is not true at all. You simply do not understand how you keep thinking Newtonianly. When you try to insist that there had to be a "before the Big Bang" that is what you are doing.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
exactly my point, that astronomers are also people and use colloaquial definitions to make their points understandable to those who would not recognize the terminology that they use is in no way support for your reanalysis of what they are saying just because they use words that have some meaning to you.

They are not claiming a south to the universe, only a place that the average human understands it from their minuscule understanding.

Given our understanding of the universe, the concept of a Cartesian origin is invalid even if it makes "common sense"
All concepts, every concept that exists, has no reality other than it is a concept, they do however represent some reality, but in reality they are not that reality they are meant to represent. The concept of 'light' is not light, it represents the reality of light, but it itself is merely a mental concept. All language, all math, are comprised of concepts.

So the concept 'south' is no different to any other concept in that sense, science has nothing to do with it, you either understand what the 'south direction' means, or you don't.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
All concepts, every concept that exists, has no reality other than it is a concept, they do however represent some reality, but in reality they are not that reality they are meant to represent. The concept of 'light' is not light, it represents the reality of light, but it itself is merely a mental concept. All language, all math, are comprised of concepts.

So the concept 'south' is no different to any other concept in that sense, science has nothing to do with it, you either understand what the 'south direction' means, or you don't.
Bleu Cheese on that please.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
All concepts, every concept that exists, has no reality other than it is a concept, they do however represent some reality, but in reality they are not that reality they are meant to represent. The concept of 'light' is not light, it represents the reality of light, but it itself is merely a mental concept. All language, all math, are comprised of concepts.

So the concept 'south' is no different to any other concept in that sense, science has nothing to do with it, you either understand what the 'south direction' means, or you don't.

If you are using some concept to model to some parts of the physical reality, as attempt to explain WHAT they are and HOW they work, then yes, they are just words.

But the Scientific Method also required that the models to any hypothesis, must be tested. Such tests would
(A) either verify & validate the model as being probable,​
(B) or refute & invalidate the model as being improbable.​

Such tests would be observations of evidence or experiments, that should provide information about the evidence or experiments, known as data. Data, like evidence and test results of experiments, are observations as well.

Such tests and observations can weed out falsifiable hypotheses that are either weak & tentative or incorrect, in which case, these hypotheses would either reworked & amended with updated model (which the updated models would have to be tested again), or discarded and not proceed in further enquiring or research.

If the tests were successful, then it might proceed to the next step, by submitting a hypothesis along with all observational data, for Peer Review, or they may continue on more researches and more testings.

That’s the only way to determine if concepts are valid with reality or not, testing the concept. If tested true, scientifically, then the “concept” would be validate.

The Cartesian system of direction only work on Earth, where the needle of compass would point north, because of the polarity of the Earth‘s magnetic fields, are inducted from the two magnetic poles. So when you reach the (magnetic) South Pole, there are no south of the South Pole.

The thing is, Earth is what it is, and you cannot venture south, to do so, you would be travelling away from the South Pole.

To use the Earth’s South Pole as analogy, as a comparison with the universe, is to logically propose that everything exist in the universe there are no outside of the Universe, just as there are South Pole outside of the Earth.

Now, I generally dislike using analogies, because it can be often misunderstood, because the person or reader can be confused, but the real problems with using analogies when they are improperly applied, hence misused.

You talk of Southern Cross constellation, or the Crux. It does guide navigators to where the South Pole is, however the closest you are to the South Pole, the less helpful it is. If do end up at the South Pole, you won’t find the constellation directly overhead of you, as the Southern Cross is actually located around 60 degree above the South Pole at all times.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
If you are using some concept to model to some parts of the physical reality, as attempt to explain WHAT they are and HOW they work, then yes, they are just words.

But the Scientific Method also required that the models to any hypothesis, must be tested. Such tests would
(A) either verify & validate the model as being probable,​
(B) or refute & invalidate the model as being improbable.​

Such tests would be observations of evidence or experiments, that should provide information about the evidence or experiments, known as data. Data, like evidence and test results of experiments, are observations as well.

Such tests and observations can weed out falsifiable hypotheses that are either weak & tentative or incorrect, in which case, these hypotheses would either reworked & amended with updated model (which the updated models would have to be tested again), or discarded and not proceed in further enquiring or research.

If the tests were successful, then it might proceed to the next step, by submitting a hypothesis along with all observational data, for Peer Review, or they may continue on more researches and more testings.

That’s the only way to determine if concepts are valid with reality or not, testing the concept. If tested true, scientifically, then the “concept” would be validate.

The Cartesian system of direction only work on Earth, where the needle of compass would point north, because of the polarity of the Earth‘s magnetic fields, are inducted from the two magnetic poles. So when you reach the (magnetic) South Pole, there are no south of the South Pole.

The thing is, Earth is what it is, and you cannot venture south, to do so, you would be travelling away from the South Pole.

To use the Earth’s South Pole as analogy, as a comparison with the universe, is to logically propose that everything exist in the universe there are no outside of the Universe, just as there are South Pole outside of the Earth.

Now, I generally dislike using analogies, because it can be often misunderstood, because the person or reader can be confused, but the real problems with using analogies when they are improperly applied, hence misused.

You talk of Southern Cross constellation, or the Crux. It does guide navigators to where the South Pole is, however the closest you are to the South Pole, the less helpful it is. If do end up at the South Pole, you won’t find the constellation directly overhead of you, as the Southern Cross is actually located around 60 degree above the South Pole at all times.
Ok, I will keep it simple, if I ask you to look at the stars in the eastern sky, would you know where to look? If I ask you to look at the stars in the southern sky, would you know where to look?

The origin of the names that represent the respective directions, east, north, west, and south, is another subject, but as concepts, they represent the reality of direction, not place, there is no finite limit to distance wrt direction.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
You accused me of a "belief". Mere belief is your flaw, not mine.
You mean to say you have no beliefs, and you believe it is lying if someone implies you do?

Now I understand that it is forbidden by RF to accuse another member of lying, so I won't say a word and just let others judge the veracity of your claim that you have no beliefs, and that I lied when I spoke of your scientific beliefs.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Is English a second language for you? If so I can understand some of your errors.

Do you even know how people use Polaris or the Southern Cross?
We are talking about direction, south, east, north, and west, do you understand these names represent different directions. If I ask you to look at the southern sky, do you know where to look. If you do it properly, then you are looking south. See, not so difficult, just remember it is not a place, it is a direction.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Why didn't the universe always exist? Because since God is supposed to be outside of time and is supposed to have always existed, then how could God have used a point in time to start creation? Any thoughts on this?
You know what? This is a good read on this subject. I don't have a link. Please cut and paste on google and you will find it.

Alexander Vilenkin: Did the Universe have a Beginning?
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
You know what? This is a good read on this subject. I don't have a link. Please cut and paste on google and you will find it.

Alexander Vilenkin: Did the Universe have a Beginning?
But does he give the scientific reason why nothing would become something?
 
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