Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

[Ben Dhyan]

Suppose I don't know. Then what?

Then it is a fact that you do not know where consciousness came from.

 

[simsi]

Hello simsi,
Welcome to RF

Are you aware of Baha'u'llah's antiscientific teachings, such as that copper would turn into gold if left in it's mine for 70 years in a molten state?

Also are you aware that Baha'is do not accept all the Prophets eg Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Joseph Smith and many others?

Hello thanks for the welcome. To answer your two questions, yes I'm aware. You didn't ask anything else, so two questions from me: just supposing these two points you raised can't be discussed rationally, what's their significance to you personally? And second, are these two things roughly all you know about this religion?

 

[simsi]

^ If man is a model (Gen 1:27 God created man in his image), and the model models the modeller/universe, the models will turn out to be in the modeller's image. An atheist will see themselves evolved from unconsciousness, no God is needed, while a theist will see themselves as having their origins in Divine consciousness, God.

Hello yes different modellings. God's creating man in his own image I understand as potential. The Baha'i founder put said something interesting: the image was latent and needed to be developed. I think physically, the brain and every function depending on it, is in God's image. We're born with eyes in emulation of the seeing God and so on, but spirituality we're developing God's image. Obviously we aren't born all-knowing or all-loving or having any of the qualities of God. We acquire these qualities here and beyond.

I think it was you to whom I said I'd be sending a reply I'd thought of before, but I think as you said, we're basically in agreement so it's irrelevant now.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Hello yes different modellings. God's creating man in his own image I understand as potential. The Baha'i founder put said something interesting: the image was latent and needed to be developed. I think physically, the brain and every function depending on it, is in God's image. We're born with eyes in emulation of the seeing God and so on, but spirituality we're developing God's image. Obviously we aren't born all-knowing or all-loving or having any of the qualities of God. We acquire these qualities here and beyond.

I think it was you to whom I said I'd be sending a reply I'd thought of before, but I think as you said, we're basically in agreement so it's irrelevant now.

Hi simsi, yes, the God qualities are acquired at the expense of our lower nature desires, to be one with God requires we give up all that isn't (one with God).

 

[gnostic]

So where did human consciousness come from?

humans have been conscious since they have been around.

From biological taxonic systems, the Homo sapiens evolved from Homo heidelbergensis, and that species was conscious, as were the Homo erectus before that.

In fact all vertebrate animals with complex nervous systems, eg animal with central nervous system that include a brain & a spinal cord, would be conscious organism.

There are invertebrate animals that have varying degrees of complex nervous systems, particularly those with brains, and they are conscious organisms. But not all invertebrates have brains, but more primitive and basic nervous systems, hence have limited consciousness.

As all mammals are conscious animals, humans (Homo sapiens) didn’t evolve from earlier unconscious humans of earlier species (eg Homo heidelbergensis).

You earlier claim:

An atheist will see themselves evolved from unconsciousness, no God is needed

Not only the claim is wrong, it is false and strawman argument. Such dishonest tactics is noted.

 

[ppp]

Then it is a fact that you do not know where consciousness came from.

And the relevance of you asking the question is what? It was it an irrelevant question?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

humans have been conscious since they have been around.

From biological taxonic systems, the Homo sapiens evolved from Homo heidelbergensis, and that species was conscious, as were the Homo erectus before that.

In fact all vertebrate animals with complex nervous systems, eg animal with central nervous system that include a brain & a spinal cord, would be conscious organism.

There are invertebrate animals that have varying degrees of complex nervous systems, particularly those with brains, and they are conscious organisms. But not all invertebrates have brains, but more primitive and basic nervous systems, hence have limited consciousness.

As all mammals are conscious animals, humans (Homo sapiens) didn’t evolve from earlier unconscious humans of earlier species (eg Homo heidelbergensis).

You earlier claim:



Not only the claim is wrong, it is false and strawman argument. Such dishonest tactics is noted.

But you are not answering my question, I know that mankind has been conscious since they have been around, I am interested in how you imagine that man's consciousness arose when they came into being?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

And the relevance of you asking the question is what? It was it an irrelevant question?

Because I am trying to understand how an atheist imagines man's consciousness arose when they are not believing in Divine creation.

Have you not ever wondered how you come to be conscious?

 

[ppp]

Because I am trying to understand how an atheist imagines man's consciousness arose when they are not believing in Divine creation.

I cannot tell by your sentence construction whether "an atheist" refers to a specific atheist, or to some homogenous "[imagining]" of all atheists.

Your statement also hints that you think that "a theist" imagining is necessarily that man's consciousness arose from divine creation. Which would be bizarre as not all theists believe that their god(s) created humans or are responsible for the existence of human consciousness.

Have you not ever wondered how you come to be conscious?

Is this supposed to be a related question, or something entirely separate? Wondering how I personally developed consciousness has no obvious connection to how humans developed consciousness. Or even if they ever did.

Your question(s) is/are a little loosey-goosey.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I cannot tell by your sentence construction whether "an atheist" refers to a specific atheist, or to some homogenous "[imagining]" of all atheists.

Your statement also hints that you think that "a theist" imagining is necessarily that man's consciousness arose from divine creation. Which would be bizarre as not all theists believe that their god(s) created humans or are responsible for the existence of human consciousness.

Is this supposed to be a related question, or something entirely separate? Wondering how I personally developed consciousness has no obvious connection to how humans developed consciousness. Or even if they ever did.

Your question(s) is/are a little loosey-goosey.

I cannot tell from your response whether you are someone who does not believe in theism, or someone who believes in atheism.

 

[gnostic]

But you are not answering my question, I know that mankind has been conscious since they have been around, I am interested in how you imagine that man's consciousness arose when they came into being?

i have answered it already. I answered them from scientific perspective, not from theist’s or atheist’s perspective. Which btw, I am agnostic, not atheist, but I am still talking about biology, not about agnostic perspective.

All mammals have been conscious since they have been around. They (mammals) evolved from even earlier clade of the Amniota, the mammal-like Synapsida. The synapsids were all tetrapod vertebrates that exclude all later evolution of reptiles and birds, which evolved from the other clade to the Amniota - the Sauropsida. These were all conscious organisms.

As I said in my other reply, all vertebrates that have central nervous systems (CNS) - brains and spinal cords - have consciousness in their development, and that include all extant & extinct amphibians, all extant & extinct bony fishes and cartilaginous fishes. However, not every invertebrate - extant & extinct species - have central nervous systems. So the questions of certain species of invertebrates (those without CNS) remain in doubt about them being “conscious“.

Humans are not invertebrates, Ben, and they don’t lack central nervous systems.

This all have to do with biology and paleontology, AND nothing to do with atheism, theism or agnosticism, or any other -isms, like your pantheism.

This “came into being” suggest that you implying man being created by a deity. Unless you can present physical evidence of “God’s existence”, you are basing your belief or argument of “what if” scenario that have no real basis in reality.

i have answered you again, with more details that I didn’t presented before, hence I have answered you twice, so stopped pretending that I didn’t give you answers.

My earlier reply just didn’t fit in with your worldview. I am here to give my perspective, not yours.

 

[ppp]

I cannot tell from your response whether you are someone who does not believe in theism, or someone who believes in atheism.

Okay
Would you answer my questions?

 

[danieldemol]

Hello thanks for the welcome. To answer your two questions, yes I'm aware. You didn't ask anything else, so two questions from me: just supposing these two points you raised can't be discussed rationally, what's their significance to you personally?

The significance to me is that you appeared to be quoting Baha'u'llah about the universe as though he were some sort of science authority when in my view he is demonstrably no such thing.

And second, are these two things roughly all you know about this religion?

No, not by a long shot. Thanks for asking.

 

[YoursTrue]

i have answered it already. I answered them from scientific perspective, not from theist’s or atheist’s perspective. Which btw, I am agnostic, not atheist, but I am still talking about biology, not about agnostic perspective.

All mammals have been conscious since they have been around. They (mammals) evolved from even earlier clade of the Amniota, the mammal-like Synapsida. The synapsids were all tetrapod vertebrates that exclude all later evolution of reptiles and birds, which evolved from the other clade to the Amniota - the Sauropsida. These were all conscious organisms.

I'm not saying that all mammals have not been conscious since they have been around, but that made me wonder just how conscious are they? There is instinct and there may be knowledge. I wonder if they are conscious that they cannot breathe underwater. or -- is it instinct, and then the question is, how different is instinct from knowledge? Going back to speech in humans, babies are not born with the ability to speak a language. They have to be taught. They may may have an instinct to cry but they do not have knowledge to speak a language unless (1) they have capability and (2) someone teaches them.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

i have answered it already. I answered them from scientific perspective, not from theist’s or atheist’s perspective. Which btw, I am agnostic, not atheist, but I am still talking about biology, not about agnostic perspective.

All mammals have been conscious since they have been around. They (mammals) evolved from even earlier clade of the Amniota, the mammal-like Synapsida. The synapsids were all tetrapod vertebrates that exclude all later evolution of reptiles and birds, which evolved from the other clade to the Amniota - the Sauropsida. These were all conscious organisms.

As I said in my other reply, all vertebrates that have central nervous systems (CNS) - brains and spinal cords - have consciousness in their development, and that include all extant & extinct amphibians, all extant & extinct bony fishes and cartilaginous fishes. However, not every invertebrate - extant & extinct species - have central nervous systems. So the questions of certain species of invertebrates (those without CNS) remain in doubt about them being “conscious“.

Humans are not invertebrates, Ben, and they don’t lack central nervous systems.

This all have to do with biology and paleontology, AND nothing to do with atheism, theism or agnosticism, or any other -isms, like your pantheism.

This “came into being” suggest that you implying man being created by a deity. Unless you can present physical evidence of “God’s existence”, you are basing your belief or argument of “what if” scenario that have no real basis in reality.

i have answered you again, with more details that I didn’t presented before, hence I have answered you twice, so stopped pretending that I didn’t give you answers.

My earlier reply just didn’t fit in with your worldview. I am here to give my perspective, not yours.

Excuse me if I have missed something, but I still don't see where you have explained the from what environment consciousness first came to arise.

I mean did the Amniota consciousness first arise in an unconscious environment, or did it arise in a conscious one?

 

[YoursTrue]

Because I am trying to understand how an atheist imagines man's consciousness arose when they are not believing in Divine creation.

Have you not ever wondered how you come to be conscious?

Pardon me but your desire to learn is commendable. I have learned many things and seems both from my experience here as well as attending various houses of worship that there are those who cannot explain or will not explain the dichotomy of their existences. Hope you find an honest enough person to tell you. Silence itself will often say something. Take care...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Okay
Would you answer my questions?

I take that as you don't know what you believe. Fair enough son, God bless you ppp.

 

[gnostic]

Excuse me if I have missed something, but I still don't see where you have explained the from what environment consciousness first came to arise.

I mean did the Amniota consciousness first arise in an unconscious environment, or did it arise in a conscious one?

The Amniota evolved from the extinct species of early amphibians, which were the earliest tetrapod vertebrates to live part of their times on land, and part of their times in water.

The differences between amphibians, extant & extinct, when they do reproduce, they laid their eggs in watery environments, just as fishes do, hence both fishes and amphibians are known as Anamniota...which differed from all Amniota that either retain the young in womb prior to giving live birth or lay their eggs on lands.

Amniota or Anamniota, they are all vertebrates, hence have brains and spinal, hence are all conscious organisms, extant or extinct.

You are still missing the points, consciousness are the characteristics for all vertebrates.

Invertebrates are a different matter, as most are conscious organisms, some are not, eg the sponges (phylum Ponifera), which have no central nervous systems.

You seemed to be focusing on only human consciousness.

Yes, they are the most studied. But you needed to be reminded, that humans belonged to the same group as all animals, in the kingdom Animalia & the domain Eukaryota.

Other organisms in the Eukaryota, are plants (kingdom Plantae) and fungi (kingdom Fungi), and microscopic (unicellular & multicellular) Protista, are not conscious organisms.

As to the other domains to the Prokaryota - domain Bacteria, domain Archaea - are unicellular organisms, also without consciousness.

Of the all "living" species, there are 1.5 million species of animals, 1.05 million species are of insects, more than 85,000 belonged to the molluscs species, whereas vertebrates only represented about 65,000 different species. Of the vertebrates, there are about 28,000 species are of the bony fishes (class Osteichthyes) is the largest group, only 6400 species are from the mammals (class Mammalia).

The above paragraph, referred to only living & extant species, not extinct species.

And I haven't even given you the numbers for living species of domain Bacteria, or the kingdom Plantae...but to be quite frank, I don't know the numbers, as I don't know much about bacteria. But whatever their numbers are, they are not conscious organisms, and you seemed to ignore them.

 

[gnostic]

@Ben Dhyan

Here is what I have googled, found this website. It only give the numbers of species of animals only.

How many species are there?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The Amniota evolved from the extinct species of early amphibians, which were the earliest tetrapod vertebrates to live part of their times on land, and part of their times in water.

The differences between amphibians, extant & extinct, when they do reproduce, they laid their eggs in watery environments, just as fishes do, hence both fishes and amphibians are known as Anamniota...which differed from all Amniota that either retain the young in womb prior to giving live birth or lay their eggs on lands.

Amniota or Anamniota, they are all vertebrates, hence have brains and spinal, hence are all conscious organisms, extant or extinct.

You are still missing the points, consciousness are the characteristics for all vertebrates.

Invertebrates are a different matter, as most are conscious organisms, some are not, eg the sponges (phylum Ponifera), which have no central nervous systems.

You seemed to be focusing on only human consciousness.

Yes, they are the most studied. But you needed to be reminded, that humans belonged to the same group as all animals, in the kingdom Animalia & the domain Eukaryota.

Other organisms in the Eukaryota, are plants (kingdom Plantae) and fungi (kingdom Fungi), and microscopic (unicellular & multicellular) Protista, are not conscious organisms.

As to the other domains to the Prokaryota - domain Bacteria, domain Archaea - are unicellular organisms, also without consciousness.

Of the all "living" species, there are 1.5 million species of animals, 1.05 million species are of insects, more than 85,000 belonged to the molluscs species, whereas vertebrates only represented about 65,000 different species. Of the vertebrates, there are about 28,000 species are of the bony fishes (class Osteichthyes) is the largest group, only 6400 species are from the mammals (class Mammalia).

The above paragraph, referred to only living & extant species, not extinct species.

And I haven't even given you the numbers for living species of domain Bacteria, or the kingdom Plantae...but to be quite frank, I don't know the numbers, as I don't know much about bacteria. But whatever their numbers are, they are not conscious organisms, and you seemed to ignore them.

You didn't answer my question, did consciousness arise from unconsciousness or consciousness.

Was the universe conscious from the beginning, or did it come later?