why do animals suffer?

[adi2d]

My 15 year old dog,Albert, is slowly dying. His hip has given out so he can't stand. As far as I know he has never sinned so shouldn't be affected by the fall. He has shown unconditional love and loyalty all his life.
I understand the idea why we suffer but I don't see why animals have to. Any ideas out there?

 

[Iti oj]

Biology life cycle etc. Life is life. And sin has nothing to do with it.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

If you want to talk to me about anything, you can message me, I lost my dog, and it was hard.

But suffering for animals and humans is a natural phenomena, biology, physics, etc.

 

[adi2d]

Not trying to troll at all. The reasons I have heard for people suffering was because of A+E in the garden. If that isn't true and we suffer because that's just part of life then it makes sense that all animals suffer. If its because of the fall then why animals?

 

[Kerr]

My 15 year old dog,Albert, is slowly dying. His hip has given out so he can't stand. As far as I know he has never sinned so shouldn't be affected by the fall. He has shown unconditional love and loyalty all his life.
I understand the idea why we suffer but I don't see why animals have to. Any ideas out there?

Evolutionary, suffering can help an organism to survive by showing what is dangerous. There is really no comfort to be found in the evolutionary perspective on why animals suffer because evolution is completely amoral.

Have gone through what you are going through as well, with my old cat who is long gone. For what its worth, I am sorry he is dying.

 

[adi2d]

Sorry all. Just feeling sorry for myself a little here. Stupid topic.

 

[Kerr]

Sorry all. Just feeling sorry for myself a little here. Stupid topic.

In cases like this we are allowed to feel a little sorry for ourselves, so dont worry about it. Pets have an incredible ability to find their way into our hearts and being sad when they suffer is only natural.

 

[Reverend Rick]

My heart goes out to you, my wife says I love my dog more than I love her,(she may be right). :sorry1:

He is my best friend and I take him everywhere I can. When I go somewhere without him, I cannot wait to be united with him again. He eats what I eat and he sleeps at the foot of my bed, (after he joins me in bed for his nightly belly rub).

When I go out of town, he stays at the doggy motel and I can view him on my smart phone when ever I want. He has a TV and is taken for walks and socialises with other dogs while he stays there.

He has more fun than I do when I am away.

When his days are done, I don't know what I will do without him. I know if I die first, he will mourn me as much as I would him.

 

[Man of Faith]

Of course the snake should suffer. The whole universe was cursed, not just humans, however animals don't suffer like humans because they aren’t aware of their pain. Consider the below paragraph from a leading philosopher.

“But even though animals like dogs, cats, and horses experience pain, nevertheless the evidence is that they do not experience level (3), the awareness that they are in pain. For the awareness that one is oneself in pain requires self-awareness, which is centered in the pre-frontal cortex of the brain—a section of the brain which is missing in all animals except for the humanoid primates. Thus, amazingly, even though animals may experience pain, they are not aware of being in pain. God in His mercy has apparently spared animals the awareness of pain. This is a tremendous comfort to us pet owners. For even though your dog or cat may be in pain, it really isn't aware of it and so doesn't suffer as you would if you were in pain.”

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/natures-flaws-and-cruelties#ixzz2Fgvi2OEL

 

[Madhuri]

Of course the snake should suffer. The whole universe was cursed, not just humans, however animals don't suffer like humans because they aren’t aware of their pain. Consider the below paragraph from a leading philosopher.

“But even though animals like dogs, cats, and horses experience pain, nevertheless the evidence is that they do not experience level (3), the awareness that they are in pain. For the awareness that one is oneself in pain requires self-awareness, which is centered in the pre-frontal cortex of the brain—a section of the brain which is missing in all animals except for the humanoid primates. Thus, amazingly, even though animals may experience pain, they are not aware of being in pain. God in His mercy has apparently spared animals the awareness of pain. This is a tremendous comfort to us pet owners. For even though your dog or cat may be in pain, it really isn't aware of it and so doesn't suffer as you would if you were in pain.”

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/natures-flaws-and-cruelties#ixzz2Fgvi2OEL

How can you experience pain if you are not aware of pain?
The idea that animals do not suffer is archaic. It is a well known fact that animals suffer immensely. Some say they experience pain even more acutely than humans since animals live entirely in the moment.

 

[Valjean]

My 15 year old dog,Albert, is slowly dying. His hip has given out so he can't stand. As far as I know he has never sinned so shouldn't be affected by the fall. He has shown unconditional love and loyalty all his life.
I understand the idea why we suffer but I don't see why animals have to. Any ideas out there?

It hasn't occurred to you that this whole "garden" and "fall" story might be a load of dingo's kidneys?

 

[Jainarayan]

I feel for you, and am sorry. I hate to see animals or people suffer. I've been through my share of nursing dying animals and know how it can rip your heart out. I don't think we can ever really ever know why things happen. All we can do is try to see if there's a message or lesson. Make him as comfortable as you can. He'll let you know when it's time to leave. He won't stay any longer than he can tolerate or needs to, to finish his work. The Lord of Animals will help Albert, and you, in the way you need to be helped.

I do not believe in the Adam and Eve and original sin and kicked-out-of-paradise bulldookey. What I do believe is that it's our karma... mine, my ferrets', my cat's, my dogs I've lost. It's said we choose our next lives. Maybe they chose their lives, suffering and all to teach me something. Maybe I chose this life to learn something.

 

[idav]

My 15 year old dog,Albert, is slowly dying. His hip has given out so he can't stand. As far as I know he has never sinned so shouldn't be affected by the fall. He has shown unconditional love and loyalty all his life.
I understand the idea why we suffer but I don't see why animals have to. Any ideas out there?

Life suffers because it evolved defensive mechanism that makes life want to stay alive and fight. If we happen to be losing the fight we will feel it.

I believe that in the garden humans and animals were already mortal. Not being in the garden and not having access to the tree of life is the issue. Many mythologies get into these notions of finding the spring of youth and life. What it does suggest is that perhaps pets will see the same paradise we do.

 

[Druidus]

There are people born with the inability to feel pain. They often mutilate themselves accidentally, and generally die sooner than the norm. Pain and suffering are the tools that natural selection has used to create ameliorative behaviour in life-forms possessing nervous systems.

However, we can use tools of our own to mitigate our suffering, and the suffering of other beings.

That said, here's a quote from a game called Alpha Centauri, about our future on planet Chiron:

"What do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, is no more than information before the senses, data fed to the computer of the mind. The lesson is simple: you have received the information, now act on it. Take control of the input and you shall become master of the output."

-- Chairman Sheng-ji Yang, "Essays on Mind and Matter"

[youtube]sJlPr2KHSFo[/youtube]
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri Secret Project: The Virtual World - YouTube

We can master pain, and become free of suffering. We just need the appropriate tools and techniques (and the courage to apply them).

 

[Me Myself]

Of course the snake should suffer. The whole universe was cursed, not just humans, however animals don't suffer like humans because they aren’t aware of their pain. Consider the below paragraph from a leading philosopher.

“But even though animals like dogs, cats, and horses experience pain, nevertheless the evidence is that they do not experience level (3), the awareness that they are in pain. For the awareness that one is oneself in pain requires self-awareness, which is centered in the pre-frontal cortex of the brain—a section of the brain which is missing in all animals except for the humanoid primates. Thus, amazingly, even though animals may experience pain, they are not aware of being in pain. God in His mercy has apparently spared animals the awareness of pain. This is a tremendous comfort to us pet owners. For even though your dog or cat may be in pain, it really isn't aware of it and so doesn't suffer as you would if you were in pain.”

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/natures-flaws-and-cruelties#ixzz2Fgvi2OEL

If animals were not "conscious" or "aware" of pain, they wouldn´t be able to take care of their babies in pain, and they do.

Animals are very aware of pain. just because they won´t philosophy about it, doesn´t mean they are not aware of pain.

The fact that garden god made not only the inocent descendants of the first humans, but even the whole animal kingdom, suffer for something they had no choice in, is just a further expression of his injustice.

 

[Druidus]

If animals were not "conscious" or "aware" of pain, they wouldn´t be able to take care of their babies in pain, and they do.

Animals are very aware of pain. just because they won´t philosophy about it, doesn´t mean they are not aware of pain.

True. And I believe there have been brain imaging studies done that confirm the existence of pain in at least most (if not all) vertebrates. Probably many invertebrates feel the same.

Consciousness of everything is an evolutionary trait. By having a consciousness, we can make decisions based on the input to our brains. We, and other animals, MUST be conscious of suffering, else why would we avoid it? If you aren't conscious of it, it effectively does not exist to you, and will not factor into your behaviour.

The fact that garden god made not only the inocent descendants of the first humans, but even the whole animal kingdom, suffer for something they had no choice in, is just a further expression of his injustice.

Were that myth true (Genesis et al), God would be an insatiably cruel sadist. First denying us the right to knowledge, and secondly denying our right to immortality.

I am of the general belief that if Christianity's mythology is true to reality, then the true "good" God is the underdog and lost out to the God referenced in the Bible. Lucifer, the light-bringer, like Prometheus, is my model of a beneficent God. He just got vilified for bringing us all that makes us human (in the story, anyway).

What kind of God would deny his creations knowledge, philosophy, fire-use, etc. unless he enjoyed observing their abject ignorance. For that matter, what kind of created conscious/sentient being could be denied knowledge anyway? With their sentience, they'd already have curiousity for knowledge, and would learn no matter what their demiurge wanted.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Of course the snake should suffer. The whole universe was cursed, not just humans, however animals don't suffer like humans because they aren’t aware of their pain. Consider the below paragraph from a leading philosopher.

“But even though animals like dogs, cats, and horses experience pain, nevertheless the evidence is that they do not experience level (3), the awareness that they are in pain. For the awareness that one is oneself in pain requires self-awareness, which is centered in the pre-frontal cortex of the brain—a section of the brain which is missing in all animals except for the humanoid primates. Thus, amazingly, even though animals may experience pain, they are not aware of being in pain. God in His mercy has apparently spared animals the awareness of pain. This is a tremendous comfort to us pet owners. For even though your dog or cat may be in pain, it really isn't aware of it and so doesn't suffer as you would if you were in pain.”

Read more: [URL="http://www.reasonablefaith.org/natures-flaws-and-cruelties#ixzz2Fgvi2OEL"]http://www.reasonablefaith.org/natures-flaws-and-cruelties#ixzz2Fgvi2OEL[/URL]

Horse pocky!

 

[Halcyon]

“But even though animals like dogs, cats, and horses experience pain, nevertheless the evidence is that they do not experience level (3), the awareness that they are in pain. For the awareness that one is oneself in pain requires self-awareness, which is centered in the pre-frontal cortex of the brain—a section of the brain which is missing in all animals except for the humanoid primates. Thus, amazingly, even though animals may experience pain, they are not aware of being in pain. God in His mercy has apparently spared animals the awareness of pain. This is a tremendous comfort to us pet owners. For even though your dog or cat may be in pain, it really isn't aware of it and so doesn't suffer as you would if you were in pain.”

Utter tripe.

Yes, there are lower organisms like insects and primitive molluscs that will register damage in the form of pain and retreat from the source of pain but otherwise carry on as normal. But for higher animals like dogs, cats, birds, hamsters etc they register pain exactly as we do. In fact they have it worse as they don't have the cognitive ability we do to understand what's causing their pain and that it will probably only be temporary. A dog will protect it's wound and may become aggressive, depressed and upset when it is in pain. Or, like my cat did when she had cancer, will seek out companionship more often. Animals are like people, they react to pain and they react in different ways depending on their personalities.
Dogs do indeed have a pre-frontal cortex, though it's smaller than in a human, and as any dog owner will be aware they have a theory of mind;
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ind-ii-misunderstanding-dogs-mistreating-them

adi2d. I'm sorry that your dog is suffering, the reason he is though is because he's just like you. Same organs, same nervous system, same brain chemistry. The only difference is his external appearance and his intelligence. I'm sure you're caring for him as you would a member of your human family, which is exactly what you should be doing. My dog was also 15 when we had him put to sleep, he had the canine version of Alzheimers (I say canine version, but it's exactly the same disease as in humans) and it was heart-breaking to watch him slowly lose control of his body and mind.

 

[Alex_G]

My 15 year old dog,Albert, is slowly dying. His hip has given out so he can't stand. As far as I know he has never sinned so shouldn't be affected by the fall. He has shown unconditional love and loyalty all his life.
I understand the idea why we suffer but I don't see why animals have to. Any ideas out there?

Im so sorry for the pain of knowing your losing your good friend and companion. It sucks i know, but its part of the balance of life. All the good and the bad, the coming and the going, the love and loss, the experiences and the memories. All good things must come to and end, making them even more precious and valuable while you have them and i know you'll have many fond memories that will stay with you forever.

The concept of sin being the reason for suffering is deeply flawed. It really is so misguided, as it frames pain and suffering as somehow the fault or moral desert of the individual in question. I think it obscures one from honestly feeling and experiencing these times of loss and pain, by drawing this false veil over it, focusing your attention on whether the pain/suffering was deserved or not for this and that sin. The truth is all creatures will suffer, some more so some less so and it has nothing to do with some artificial attribution of sin. My advice is not to use such a broken view to help you through your loss, and to use this time to perhaps really consider if you want to hold on to such a worldview in the rest of your life.

Be there with Albert at the end of his days, and dont let ideas of sin prevent you from honestly connecting with your feelings. My thoughts are with you.

Alex

 

[rusra02]

My 15 year old dog,Albert, is slowly dying. His hip has given out so he can't stand. As far as I know he has never sinned so shouldn't be affected by the fall. He has shown unconditional love and loyalty all his life.
I understand the idea why we suffer but I don't see why animals have to. Any ideas out there?

Conditions on earth today are far from what God purposed when he created the first man. Man's fall into sin apparently affected the animals adversely, as well as man. That said, I do not think God ever purposed for animals to live forever. 2 Peter 2:12 in the Bible speaks of "unreasoning animals born naturally to be caught and destroyed." After the Flood, God permiited the eating of animals for food. (Genesis 9:3) The Bible speaks of the time when the animals will once again be at peace, with man and with one another, under God's Kingdom rule. (Isaiah 65:25, 17) But they will live out their natural lifespan and die, even then.