Why do Atheists exist?

[outhouse]

we dont have to ássume' the bible is true, you just have to study it to know that it is true.

its historically accurate naming specific people and places, it is scientifically accurate when it comes to details about earths functions, its animals, the water cycle, its shape and how it floats in space on nothing. It even gives information about hygiene and sanitisation that people didnt know about right up till recent times. It also contains accurate detailed prophecies which are backed up historically and archiologically. We really dont need to assume anything about the bible anymore...there is more then enough evidience that that bible can prove itself true.

I think many fictional books fall into this exact catagory

 

[Daviso452]

we dont have to ássume' the bible is true, you just have to study it to know that it is true.

its historically accurate naming specific people and places, it is scientifically accurate when it comes to details about earths functions, its animals, the water cycle, its shape and how it floats in space on nothing. It even gives information about hygiene and sanitisation that people didnt know about right up till recent times. It also contains accurate detailed prophecies which are backed up historically and archiologically. We really dont need to assume anything about the bible anymore...there is more then enough evidience that that bible can prove itself true.

Okay, there are many asian religious texts that also contain historically accurate people as well.

The bible is wrong in terms of how animals arrived here.

Some books may have been written after the fact. As far as I know, it's not conclusive, but the book of Daniel is thought by some scholars to be written in 2nd century BC. Plus it messed up the dates on the destruction Jerusalem. But again, both those subjects are still up for debate.

But besides that, even if the prophecies accurately described future events, then we could draw at least 3 conclusions: There was something that could see the future and controlled a man's mind to write the book, or something was able to control events so something could happen, or the culture knew of the story and it influenced their actions.

I see the latter as the most likely (if the prophecy actually came true) because of the placebo effect, which is basically the same thing. Because someone thinks a pill will work, it appears it does. Prior knowledge or belief can influence how a person acts or feels.

But back to the topic, the main criticism we have is that (at least the first two) seem incredibly unlikely, because we do not have evidence of such a being existing. So we look for other possible solutions. Does that seem reasonable?

 

[Blackdog22]

we dont have to ássume' the bible is true, you just have to study it to know that it is true.

its historically accurate naming specific people and places, it is scientifically accurate when it comes to details about earths functions, its animals, the water cycle, its shape and how it floats in space on nothing. It even gives information about hygiene and sanitisation that people didnt know about right up till recent times. It also contains accurate detailed prophecies which are backed up historically and archiologically. We really dont need to assume anything about the bible anymore...there is more then enough evidience that that bible can prove itself true.

Historically accurate? Snakes never talked, a garden with magical fruit has never been found, Noah ark and a global flood has never been proven at all, It gets the birth place of Jesus wrong (Bethlehem or Nazareth?), there is no evidence for an exodus at all.

I don't think you can cherry pick what it got right and ignore what it got wrong. Spiderman lived in New York City, thus spiderman exists? That isn't logically coherent.

It describes earth as having four corners, it describes us as being the center of the universe, animals were not named by some dude named Adam and animals did not just appear or walk off of an Ark.

I have seen nothing in the Bible discussing microbes or the need for hand washing. If you are referencing Psalms then that is taking it completely out of context. I would also say that if the bible did in fact say to keep sanitized, God wasn't clear enough and billions of people died as a result. He gets a 0/10 from me on communication skills.

I don't know of any accurate prophesies in the Bible that aren't so vague or prophesying something that would've already currently existed. There will be disasters doesn't exactly cut it for proof of divinity. I would really love for you to back your claims up with passages and evidence, and ill do the same, but I have to get to work right now.

 

[Daviso452]

Historically accurate? Snakes never talked, a garden with magical fruit has never been found, Noah ark and a global flood has never been proven at all, It gets the birth place of Jesus wrong (Bethlehem or Nazareth?), there is no evidence for an exodus at all.

I don't think you can cherry pick what it got right and ignore what it got wrong. Spiderman lived in New York City, thus spiderman exists? That isn't logically coherent.

It describes earth as having four corners, it describes us as being the center of the universe, animals were not named by some dude named Adam and animals did not just appear or walk off of an Ark.

I have seen nothing in the Bible discussing microbes or the need for hand washing. If you are referencing Psalms then that is taking it completely out of context. I would also say that if the bible did in fact say to keep sanitized, God wasn't clear enough and billions of people died as a result. He gets a 0/10 from me on communication skills.

I don't know of any accurate prophesies in the Bible that aren't so vague or prophesying something that would've already currently existed. There will be disasters doesn't exactly cut it for proof of divinity. I would really love for you to back your claims up with passages and evidence, and ill do the same, but I have to get to work right now.

What he said.

 

[waitasec]

How can there be so many humans that are so blind to the splender and maginifecence and epicness and wonder of this universe and say there is no inteligence behind it's design?

It's like they never took Biology or a Physics class!

atheists are sure a pain in the butt...




good...

 

[Pegg]

But back to the topic, the main criticism we have is that (at least the first two) seem incredibly unlikely, because we do not have evidence of such a being existing. So we look for other possible solutions. Does that seem reasonable?

no, i dont think that is reasonable. We all believe in the law of 'cause and effect' We know that for every effect, there is a cause. We know that all matter is made of energy, we know that energy doesnt organize itself. They are the things we know.

to assume that all the effects in the entire universe came undirected is like assuming the rocks at Stonehenge organized themselves through natural means. Perhaps a tornado blew them there, or perhaps they are the remnant of a mountain which has slowly eroded away over a very long time....both are possible but not very probable.

so we accept that Stonehenge is the result of people who put them there because of the way they are organized. Cause and effect.

 

[waitasec]

no, i dont think that is reasonable. We all believe in the law of 'cause and effect' We know that for every effect, there is a cause. We know that all matter is made of energy, we know that energy doesnt organize itself. They are the things we know.

to assume that all the effects in the entire universe came undirected is like assuming the rocks at Stonehenge organized themselves through natural means. Perhaps a tornado blew them there, or perhaps they are the remnant of a mountain which has slowly eroded away over a very long time....both are possible but not very probable.

so we accept that Stonehenge is the result of people who put them there because of the way they are organized. Cause and effect.

then how was the 1st cause caused?
it doesn't work with saying 'god did it'
because when you say that you are essentially saying....stonehenge organized themselves through natural means...which contradicts what you originally said about cause and effect....

in other words, what you apply to god as the prime mover you can apply the same to the big bang...

 

[Daviso452]

no, i dont think that is reasonable. We all believe in the law of 'cause and effect' We know that for every effect, there is a cause. We know that all matter is made of energy, we know that energy doesnt organize itself. They are the things we know.

to assume that all the effects in the entire universe came undirected is like assuming the rocks at Stonehenge organized themselves through natural means. Perhaps a tornado blew them there, or perhaps they are the remnant of a mountain which has slowly eroded away over a very long time....both are possible but not very probable.

so we accept that Stonehenge is the result of people who put them there because of the way they are organized. Cause and effect.

There are a few parts of that you do not know. Closed systems are chaos. However, if acted upon by an outside force, it can create order. As a whole, the universe is pretty unorganized. On the flip side, earth has order because it has an outside nuclear generator (the sun)

But then there comes the source of matter and energy. Is it impossible for matter and energy to have always been there? The thing is, no one knows what the universe was like prior to the Big Bang. That means NO ONE can say either way. Otherwise you are using the "god of the gaps." Even though it may not make sense for the universe to be infinite, it is still a POSSIBILITY. On the flip side, God is also a possibility. But again, we cannot currently say which is true.

 

[shawn001]

atheists are sure a pain in the butt...




good...

Its because they took Biology or a Physics classes and learn somethings.

 

[shawn001]

no, i dont think that is reasonable. We all believe in the law of 'cause and effect' We know that for every effect, there is a cause. We know that all matter is made of energy, we know that energy doesnt organize itself. They are the things we know.

to assume that all the effects in the entire universe came undirected is like assuming the rocks at Stonehenge organized themselves through natural means. Perhaps a tornado blew them there, or perhaps they are the remnant of a mountain which has slowly eroded away over a very long time....both are possible but not very probable.

so we accept that Stonehenge is the result of people who put them there because of the way they are organized. Cause and effect.

The cause could have been quantum fluctuations, without breaking any laws of nature. Do you study QM Pegg?

The cause could have been a black hole in another universe.

The universe could have been a "seed" from another event or events.

"we know that energy doesnt organize itself"

what?

How do stars and panets form, since we have pictures before any stars or planets formed?

 

[Pegg]

Historically accurate? Snakes never talked, a garden with magical fruit has never been found, Noah ark and a global flood has never been proven at all,

the scriptures say that the talking snake was 'satan the devil' not the snake itself
the garden of Eden had no magical fruit... the trees only represented choice and possibility. And the ark does not need to be found to know that something big happened because the legend of the flood was remembered by all the offspring of noahs sons and the flood legend in various forms can be found in almost every nation on earth today from the australian aboriginals to the chinese to eskimo's of the frozen north.
That is very strong evidence that the descendants of Noah knew of the flood and it was never forgotten.

It gets the birth place of Jesus wrong (Bethlehem or Nazareth?), there is no evidence for an exodus at all.

I don't think you can cherry pick what it got right and ignore what it got wrong. Spiderman lived in New York City, thus spiderman exists? That isn't logically coherent.

it doesnt get the birthplace of Jesus wrong. It says he will be born in bethleham and he was. His family lived in Nazareth after he was born.

And regarding the Exodus, Josephus writings mention an Egyptian priest named 'Manetho' who apparently wrote about the ancestors of the Jews that they "were driven out of the country, occupied what is now Judaea, founded Jerusalem, and built the temple.” Josephus actually quotes from Manetho's writings in 'Against Apion, I, 228' so the fact is that there is secular evidence of the Jews being in Egypt and making an exodus.

It describes earth as having four corners, it describes us as being the center of the universe, animals were not named by some dude named Adam and animals did not just appear or walk off of an Ark.

'four corners' is simply expressive language being employed. The hebrew language used lots of colorful language...that doest mean they literally meant the earth has '4 corners' .... it is also written in the bible that the shape of the earth is 'spherical' so obviously the hebrews were under no false illusions.

Actually, the Bible does not say that the earth is the center of the universe. That was a teaching of church leaders who themselves did not adhere to God’s Word

What makes you sure that someone didnt name the animals? Every language has a word to describe an animal....naming the animals must have begun somewhere with someone.

I have seen nothing in the Bible discussing microbes or the need for hand washing.

Leviticus 15:1 And Jehovah continued to speak to Moses and Aaron, saying: 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel, and YOU must say to them, ‘In case any man has a running discharge occur from his genital organ, his discharge is unclean. 3 And this will become his uncleanness by his discharge: Whether his genital organ has flowed with a running discharge or his genital organ is obstructed from his running discharge, it is his uncleanness.
4 “‘Any bed upon which the one having a running discharge may lie down will be unclean, and any article upon which he may sit will be unclean. 5 And a man who may touch his bed should wash his garments, and he must bathe in water and be unclean until the evening.

Lev 11;25 And everyone carrying any of their dead bodies will wash his garments, and he must be unclean until the evening

Lev 15:11 And anyone whom the one having a running discharge might touch when he has not rinsed his hands in water must then wash his garments and bathe in water and be unclean until the evening. 12 And an earthenware vessel that the one having a running discharge might touch should be smashed;( ceramic vessels made of clay absorb fluids, hence why they are to be smashed) and any wooden vessel should be rinsed with water'

there was also mosaic laws about quarantining sick people. see Le 13:1-59; 14:38, 46. And if a dead corpse was touched, they had to be quarantined as well. (Nu 19:11-13) this obviously prevented the spread of disease...imagine how many people might have survived the 'Black Plague' or the 'Spanish Flu' if they had of applied those quarantine laws.

I don't know of any accurate prophesies in the Bible that aren't so vague or prophesying something that would've already currently existed. There will be disasters doesn't exactly cut it for proof of divinity. I would really love for you to back your claims up with passages and evidence, and ill do the same, but I have to get to work right now.

i know plenty.

 

[shawn001]

i appreciate you posting all that information and i did read it, but i still dont agree with it.

You know they used to believe that neanderthals were not even human...yet now they have learned that neanderthals were very much like us in many ways...so much so that they have to admit that they were most likely human afterall. Just because they had large brows doesnt mean they were not human. Have you seen some indigenous populations? The shape of their skulls and foreheads are much different to mine, yet they speak my language

is it evolution, or is it simply the variety of shapes and sizes we see in the human family just as we see a wide variety in the shapes and sizes of all types of animals.


My view is that true evolution is programmed into the genes and its for the purpose of variety to exist. I dont believe it means that life developed gradually through natural means though. And this idea is not out of harmony with nature or the bible because the bible tells us that God created the first 'kinds' and from that point on, the various 'kinds' went forth to multiply and the variety we see in each kind of animal is what scientists call évolution' (except they obviously say that life began with one kind of creature which branched off into other kinds...this though is completey out of harmony with scientific facts such as the fact that in the cambrian times, all the different phyla appear simulataneously in the fossil record which goes against the idea that they gradually changed)

"You know they used to believe that neanderthals were not even human...yet now they have learned that neanderthals were very much like us in many ways...so much so that they have to admit that they were most likely human afterall."

That is how science works.

You know they used to believe that the sun orbited the earth, yet now they have learned the earth orbits the sun.

They also learned that a good proportion of humns alive today have neanderthals DNA in them.

we also learned what chromosome changed from the great apes to us from a roman catholic scientist.

Ken Miller Human Chromosome 2 Genome

The phases through which chromosomes replicate, divide, shuffle, and recombine are imperfect, as DNA is subject to random mutations. Mutations do not always produce harmful outcomes. In fact, many mutations are thought to be neutral, and some even give rise to beneficial traits. To corroborate Darwin's theory, scientists would need to find a valid explanation for why a chromosome pair is missing in humans that is present in apes.

[youtube]8FGYzZOZxMw[/youtube]
Ken Miller Human Chromosome 2 Genome - YouTube


we also have cynobacteria fossils dating to 3.8 billion years and they were the first to evolve photosynthesis and heance why we have an oxygen atmosphere, because when the earth formed it was not like it was today.

We also know a planet the size of mars smacked the early earth and created the moon. It vaporized the earth surface and if it didn't hit us at a 45 degree angle we wouldn't be having this discussion. Its was a 100 million times the force of the impact that killed off the dinosaurs.

The earth's iron core had to cool as well before it created the Van Allen belts that protect life from solar radation, all life on earth then would have been fried either by massive meteor bombardment or melting lava surface and volcanoes or solar radation.

We also know that there have been five mass exitintion events and life evolved back from them, one of them the permian extinction, the one before the dinosaurs killed 90% of all life on earth.

Siberian Traps

"The gigantic lava flow in Siberia lasted upward of a million years and flooded an area about the size of the lower 48 United States with layer upon layer of dark basalt lava — thousands of feet thick.



Some geologists suspect the eruption was caused by an extra-large plume of hot material welling up from the edge of the Earth's core. But what makes it especially important is that the Siberian Traps is the prime suspect in wiping out 90 percent of all living species 251 million years ago — the most severe extinction event in Earth's history."


Discovery Channel :: Supervolcano

This opened up the opportunity for dinosaurs to evolve, then they got it and that opened up the door for mammals to evolve and eventually us. Although in the permian period there were reptile/mammals.

Before the Dinosaurs - Pelycosaurs, Archosaurs, and Therapsids

The Story of the Reptiles that Preceded the Dinosaurs

Pelycosaurs, Archosaurs and Therapsids - All About the Pelycosaurs, Archosaurs and Therapsids that Preceded the Dinosaurs

 

[shawn001]

the scriptures say that the talking snake was 'satan the devil' not the snake itself
the garden of Eden had no magical fruit... the trees only represented choice and possibility. And the ark does not need to be found to know that something big happened because the legend of the flood was remembered by all the offspring of noahs sons and the flood legend in various forms can be found in almost every nation on earth today from the australian aboriginals to the chinese to eskimo's of the frozen north.
That is very strong evidence that the descendants of Noah knew of the flood and it was never forgotten.



it doesnt get the birthplace of Jesus wrong. It says he will be born in bethleham and he was. His family lived in Nazareth after he was born.

And regarding the Exodus, Josephus writings mention an Egyptian priest named 'Manetho' who apparently wrote about the ancestors of the Jews that they "were driven out of the country, occupied what is now Judaea, founded Jerusalem, and built the temple.” Josephus actually quotes from Manetho's writings in 'Against Apion, I, 228' so the fact is that there is secular evidence of the Jews being in Egypt and making an exodus.



'four corners' is simply expressive language being employed. The hebrew language used lots of colorful language...that doest mean they literally meant the earth has '4 corners' .... it is also written in the bible that the shape of the earth is 'spherical' so obviously the hebrews were under no false illusions.

Actually, the Bible does not say that the earth is the center of the universe. That was a teaching of church leaders who themselves did not adhere to God’s Word

What makes you sure that someone didnt name the animals? Every language has a word to describe an animal....naming the animals must have begun somewhere with someone.



Leviticus 15:1 And Jehovah continued to speak to Moses and Aaron, saying: 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel, and YOU must say to them, ‘In case any man has a running discharge occur from his genital organ, his discharge is unclean. 3 And this will become his uncleanness by his discharge: Whether his genital organ has flowed with a running discharge or his genital organ is obstructed from his running discharge, it is his uncleanness.
4 “‘Any bed upon which the one having a running discharge may lie down will be unclean, and any article upon which he may sit will be unclean. 5 And a man who may touch his bed should wash his garments, and he must bathe in water and be unclean until the evening.

Lev 11;25 And everyone carrying any of their dead bodies will wash his garments, and he must be unclean until the evening

Lev 15:11 And anyone whom the one having a running discharge might touch when he has not rinsed his hands in water must then wash his garments and bathe in water and be unclean until the evening. 12 And an earthenware vessel that the one having a running discharge might touch should be smashed;( ceramic vessels made of clay absorb fluids, hence why they are to be smashed) and any wooden vessel should be rinsed with water'

there was also mosaic laws about quarantining sick people. see Le 13:1-59; 14:38, 46. And if a dead corpse was touched, they had to be quarantined as well. (Nu 19:11-13) this obviously prevented the spread of disease...imagine how many people might have survived the 'Black Plague' or the 'Spanish Flu' if they had of applied those quarantine laws.



i know plenty.

Abraham was from the sumerian city of UR, one of the oldest cities in civilization. He would have know of the flood story called the epic of gilgamesh.



sumerian clay tablet

Reproduction of a 2200 BC Sumerian seal tablet excavated from Iraq in 1846 and now part of the British Museum collection. This type of seal design, with simple stylistic figures, emerged during the cultural breakdown of the post-Akkadian period and survived into early UR III dynastic times.

Originally thought to be a depiction of the Biblical Adam and Eve tempted by the serpent, it achieved remarkable notoriety in Britain during the 19th century as the "Adam and Eve Seal" or "Temptation Seal" and was popularly viewed as validation of biblical accounts.

A century later, museum scholars determined it to be one of a well known class of mythic scenarios featuring one of the earliest historical images of the Tree Of Life, timeless Mesopotamian symbol of earthly creation.


Man and woman, snake and tree, before the bible and a different religion.

 

[waitasec]

The cause could have been quantum fluctuations, without breaking any laws of nature. Do you study QM Pegg?

The cause could have been a black hole in another universe.

The universe could have been a "seed" from another event or events.

"we know that energy doesnt organize itself"

what?

How do stars and panets form, since we have pictures before any stars or planets formed?

what he/she said...

 

[Daviso452]

And the ark does not need to be found to know that something big happened because the legend of the flood was remembered by all the offspring of noahs sons and the flood legend in various forms can be found in almost every nation on earth today from the australian aboriginals to the chinese to eskimo's of the frozen north.

That's assuming that Noah's story came first. Perhaps it was derived from another culture and altered in order to fit their culture, like how African Vodu mixed with Catholicism to create Voodoo.

it doesnt get the birthplace of Jesus wrong. It says he will be born in bethleham and he was. His family lived in Nazareth after he was born.

From what I have found, Archaelogical evidence has found that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem of Judea, but instead Bethlehem of Galilee, just outside of Nazareth.

Regarding cleanliness, the passage you posted talks specifically of genital discharge, and such fluids, as I understand, were meant only for reproductive purposes, and in any other situation was considered "unclean." As far as I know, discharge doesn't cause infection or illness. It's disgusting, but not illness causing. Bacteria and virus's can, however, but the bible talks nothing of those.

i know plenty.

You better not post the destruction of Jerusalem. Scholars found evidence saying the destruction happened in 587. Just because it contradicts with the bible DOES NOT MEAN that the scholars were wrong, but the bible was. And thus, the prophecy is false.

However I don't doubt you know plenty others, and I'm sure they would make for great debate. Please, share them.

 

[Pegg]

Abraham was from the sumerian city of UR, one of the oldest cities in civilization. He would have know of the flood story called the epic of gilgamesh.


Man and woman, snake and tree, before the bible and a different religion.

that is precisely what you would expect if all mankind orginated from the first human pair who originated in the Garden of Eden.

As the families spread abroad and away from each other, they took the same beliefs with them and from those beliefs they formed the basis of their respective religions. The similarities are not coincidence....they are evidence of a single origen. And as happens when stories get passed along over many years, the details blur a little and the characters change a little.... but beneath it all lies a true story founded on reality.

 

[Pegg]

The cause could have been quantum fluctuations, without breaking any laws of nature. Do you study QM Pegg

The cause could have been a black hole in another universe.

The universe could have been a "seed" from another event or events.

"we know that energy doesnt organize itself"

what?

How do stars and panets form, since we have pictures before any stars or planets formed?

im sure you know that the big bang was nothing more then lightbeams. Are you saying that a light beam can organize itself into stars and planets and galaxies and then go on to become living conscious entites?

 

[zenzero]

Friend TRoF,

Why do Atheists exist?
How can there be so many humans that are so blind to the splender and maginifecence and epicness and wonder of this universe and say there is no inteligence behind it's design?

The fact is they do; now what??

Love & rgds

 

[waitasec]

the scriptures say that the talking snake was 'satan the devil' not the snake itself

where?

 

[Daviso452]

im sure you know that the big bang was nothing more then lightbeams. Are you saying that a light beam can organize itself into stars and planets and galaxies and then go on to become living conscious entites?

WTF? The big bang was the single source of all matter in the universe, and it exploded and released all the protons, neutrons, and electrons into our universe. They eventually settled together to create atoms. There is nothing that says the big bang was light beams.

that is precisely what you would expect if all mankind orginated from the first human pair who originated in the Garden of Eden.

As the families spread abroad and away from each other, they took the same beliefs with them and from those beliefs they formed the basis of their respective religions. The similarities are not coincidence....they are evidence of a single origen. And as happens when stories get passed along over many years, the details blur a little and the characters change a little.... but beneath it all lies a true story founded on reality.

It could mean a single origin, but that does not mean that origin had to be from two people. Think of it like an internet meme. One person starts it, then others post it everywhere else. One man may have started the story of the flood, and through trade and travel, the story was spread to different cultures. Like Cinderella! Many historians believe the story originated in ancient china with Ye Xian, which was written centuries before the brothers Grimm.

And no, it does not have to founded on reality. A story can just be a story. Like in the native american culture, stories were written to explain natural phenomenon. But the story itself is not based on reality, what with talking animals and such.

Pegg, please stop limiting yourself to saying "It makes sense, so it must be right." If other people believe otherwise, don't just say they are wrong; understand why they think differently, because there might be good reason for their different belief.