Why do believers love God?

[osgart]

I cannot consider that to be a loving God, so that is where I am stuck. I cannot just believe in things that make no sense to me because they are in a book of scriptures.

That is what I would do if I was God but I am not God.

Atheism is not convincing to very many people but God allows non-belief if people choose it.
God has no limits but God does not want to force anyone to believe, it has to be a choice.
God allows evil because of free will and it is supposed to be a learning tool. Good people are just collateral damage.

Well I choose to believe in a God, but am unable to believe.

Collateral damage sounds like a military thing; strictly human.

I guess I'm stuck where you are at only I go one step further; I am convinced no God is there.

The intelligent source of all of existence is more like nature, and far less then divine.

https://www.google.com/collections/s/list/hi6BIh0K7rP9gzY9F0wqggOQEhGQrQ/L_54EJabnYk

 

[CG Didymus]

TransmutingSoul: "Pain....is part of Love"

Hmm....Jews in Nazi torture camps (God's love?????)

Suffering with cancer, getting no message or relief from God after praying (God's love?????)

Are you sure that you are not talking yourself into believing that God loves you (or anyone?)?

God allowed his own son to die a horrible death on the cross, after his son asked "why hath thou forsaken me?"

God flooded the world (Noah), killing many innocents.

God allows Satan and hell to exist.

God's message is "love me, or I'll condemn you to the fires of hell for all eternity."

Do you love your wife in the same way?

Would a vengeful, wrathful, angry, jealous God act that way? Not to mention any names, but the God of the Bible is like a political leader that expects people to love him or else he goes after them and tries to destroy them. They have names for those kinds of people, but I don't think "all-loving" is one of them.

 

[CG Didymus]

Being able to endure and not enduring are two different things, people do not always do what they are able to do, for instance I am able to go and murder someone on the street right now but I am not doing and will not do that.

Some religious people give up on the religion and on God. Did God test them beyond their capacity to believe? It's like that seed on the rocky soil parable, except I'm talking about people that were well rooted, but then hit a test that broke them. Like losing a child or spouse in some horrible way. And I know some people pass the test but not all.

 

[Lain]

Some religious people give up on the religion and on God. Did God test them beyond their capacity to believe? It's like that seed on the rocky soil parable, except I'm talking about people that were well rooted, but then hit a test that broke them. Like losing a child or spouse in some horrible way. And I know some people pass the test but not all.

In my view, He has sworn not to try any beyond what they are able, so He has never done that. It is simply that people fail to make use of their ability when they fail in a trial. Sometimes that ability is nothing more than to beg God for mercy in my view.

 

[CG Didymus]

Hmm....Jews in Nazi torture camps (God's love?????)

It is strange why this is always used.

I could see this as being part of the Christian interpretation of Revelation. Lots of people dying and suffering. But then... Christ returns. Trouble is Baha'is believe Christ has already returned. And the pain and suffering continue. That's why I keep asking, where in any Scriptures does it say the return of Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, any end times "Promised One" comes and goes and the world gets even more screwed up? I know it's fine with Baha'is, because they say this is just the "birth pangs" of some great and wonderful world filled with peace and harmony. But... how great is it going to be if all the pain and suffering is not done away with?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Another thing about this loving God. He's not supposed to give a test that a person can't endure. But some religious people can't endure and do themselves in.

That would be satan's doing. satan causes us to do evil deeds.
He wishes us to be losers, like himself.
G-d forgives whomsoever He wills, and punishes whomsoever He wills.
He is aware of our hardships and is more merciful than a mother to her child.
Patience in adversity is not easy.

 

[Trailblazer]

But a couple of thoughts.... One, if God is real he better be all loving.

Why do you think that God needs to be all loving if He is real?

But, number two, If we read some of the stories in the Bible, I wonder, what kind of love does God have?

Hopefully, that is just a fictional story. And I could see that. The writers just wanted the people to fear, obey and also to love this mysterious invisible God of theirs. Anyway, I'll read on.

Yes, as you know I believe the stories are fictional.

 

[Trailblazer]

Another thing about this loving God. He's not supposed to give a test that a person can't endure. But some religious people can't endure and do themselves in.

I don't believe that God does not test people beyond what they can endure. Imo, people who say that are just covering for God and I consider it judgmental for them to say a person really could have endured something they were unable to endure. And if Baha'is say that, I will remind them of what Abdu'l-Baha said, which refutes that belief:

“O thou seeker of the Kingdom! Thy letter was received. Thou hast written of the severe calamity that hath befallen thee—the death of thy respected husband. That honourable man hath been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world that his greatest wish was for deliverance from it. Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world. The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions. Thus it is seen that some, under extreme pressure of anguish, have committed suicide.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200

 

[Ponder This]

Why do believers love God?
Below are the multiple choices. You can pick one or more, or give me another reason I hadn't thought of.

(a) Because the scriptures of their religion tell them that God is good and they should love God
(b) Because they see objective evidence in the world that indicates to them that God is good and worthy of being loved
(c) Because they believe that God is good since God has been good to them in their lives
(d) None of the above because I don’t love God

The scriptures of my religion say that God created humans out of His love for us and that we are supposed to love God, because otherwise we cut ourselves off from God’s love.

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.”

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

In all honesty I had to pick (d). Why can’t I love God?

First, I believe God created a world that is a storehouse of suffering where He knew people would suffer, often through no fault of their own. Not only that, the all-knowing God knew that some people would suffer much more than other people and I do not consider this fair and equitable.

Second, I believe that God determines fate for the most part, leaving very little room for any choices. Any free will that people have is circumscribed by many factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances, so many people cannot just make changes they would like to make. So many things are beyond our control, and it is God who determines much of our fate.

Third, on top of all of the above the Baha’i Writings say that God sends tests for our own perfection and we should be grateful for the tests. Because of the tests I have always endured, whether God is actually sending them or not, I keep looking over my shoulder waiting for another test.

Will the tests of this life ever end? Is God sending these tests on purpose or are they just part of life? If they are just part of life, why do some people get more tests than other people? I am supposed to believe I am favored by God because I am tested more than others so I will end up being stronger and more spiritual, but I cannot make myself believe that even if it is true, since there is no evidence that is or will be the case. All we have are scriptures that say that and I cannot believe based on scriptures when I see no objective evidence.

How can people love a God that is responsible for any or all of the above? It is my concerted opinion that the main reason people love God is because of (a) and (c) above but I cannot love God because scriptures tell me I should and I cannot love God based upon how good God has been to me, since I do not feel that has been the case, although I am willing to admit I might be wrong since my perceptions of my past and present life situation could be wrong.

I want to love God but I have to have a reason that makes sense to me, so I thought by starting this thread some people might give me some reasons that make sense to me.

Sincerely, Trailblazer.

If you love life and God created life, then why not love God?
But if you hate life and God created life, then why not curse God?
If God did nothing, then why care?

JOB 2: 7-10

7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head. 8 Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.
9 His wife said to him, “Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die!”
10 He replied, “You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”
In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

Should we accept good from God and not trouble?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

The Baha'i God is all knowing and all powerful.

According to the Bible, God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1-24; Isaiah 46:9-10; 1 John 3:20), omnipotent (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17). For the record, there are more scriptures relating to God's personal attributes in the Bible, but I decided to select only three verses for each one. I wanted to provide some specific verses.

According to the Book of Genesis, God created the first man and woman, Adam and Eve, in the Garden of Eden. If he is all knowing (omniscient), all powerful (omnipotent), and ever present (omnipresent), then he knew before he created them that they would disobey his command to not eat the fruit from the tree of life. He knew that they would give into temptation and disobey him.

He creates Adam and Eve anyway, and of course, they disobey his command and fall from grace. As a result of their disobedience against him, he curses them both and banishes them from the Garden of Eden. Not only that, but he decides to curse the rest of mankind afterward for Adam's disobedience, which brings sin into the world (Romans 5:12), and causes sin to separate mankind from him. That's not to mention the belief that God sends people to hell for sin and for not accepting His son for eternal salvation. Mankind is initially cursed for a sin committed by Adam, and ultimately punished in an eternal hell for being sinful.

Summing it up... God punishes Adam and Eve, despite the fact that he knew they would disobey him before he created them. He curses all mankind afterward with a sinful nature, which causes humans to sin against him and be separated from him. Remember that God is all knowing, all powerful, and ever present. He supposedly knows everything before time began and thereafter.

All things considered, I think it is more than fair to conclude that God knew he would curse humanity, as well as curse Adam and Eve for disobeying his command to not eat the forbidden fruit. He also allowed the Serpent to tempt Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. The poor devil was a pawn in God's cosmic game, too. Later on in mankind's story, God gets pretty ticked off at his creation because man is morally corrupt to the core, so he destroys mankind, except for Noah and his family, in a global flood. Furthermore, he knew he would do this before he created Adam and Eve (as he is all knowing, all powerful, and ever present). So, rather than learn from hundreds of years of watching his own creation go down the toilet, he starts the process all over again after he kills off the entire world population, except for Noah and his family, or at least this is what happened, according to the Bible.

I've written all of this to emphasize that if God does exist and the Bible is, in fact, true and accurate, then mankind is simply another pawn in God's cosmic game, and Job thought he had it bad when God went after him to prove his own superior power to Satan. In, conclusion, I'd like to say that I tried to keep my venting rant simple and concise. Please excuse me if I missed a step or two along the way while I was writing my personal frustration in this post. Please feel free to add any commentary, as you see fit.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you love life and God created life, then why not love God?
But if you hate life and God created life, then why not curse God?
If God did nothing, then why care?

Good point. I would be willing to bet that most people who love God also love life.
If one believes that God created life, it is easy to love God if you love life.

Should we accept good from God and not trouble?

Should we accept mostly trouble and rarely good and then still believe God is good?

 

[Trailblazer]

According to the Bible, God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1-24; Isaiah 46:9-10; 1 John 3:20), omnipotent (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17). For the record, there are more scriptures relating to God's personal attributes in the Bible, but I decided to select only three verses for each one. I wanted to provide some specific verses.

According to the Book of Genesis, God created the first man and woman, Adam and Eve, in the Garden of Eden. If he is all knowing (omniscient), all powerful (omnipotent), and ever present (omnipresent), then he knew before he created them that they would disobey his command to not eat the fruit from the tree of life. He knew that they would give into temptation and disobey him.

He creates Adam and Eve anyway, and of course, they disobey his command and fall from grace. As a result of their disobedience against him, he curses them both and banishes them from the Garden of Eden. Not only that, but he decides to curse the rest of mankind afterward for Adam's disobedience, which brings sin into the world (Romans 5:12), and causes sin to separate mankind from him. That's not to mention the belief that God sends people to hell for sin and for not accepting His son for eternal salvation. Mankind is initially cursed for a sin committed by Adam, and ultimately punished in an eternal hell for being sinful.

Summing it up... God punishes Adam and Eve, despite the fact that he knew they would disobey him before he created them. He curses all mankind afterward with a sinful nature, which causes humans to sin against him and be separated from him. Remember that God is all knowing, all powerful, and ever present. He supposedly knows everything before time began and thereafter.

All things considered, I think it is more than fair to conclude that God knew he would curse humanity, as well as curse Adam and Eve for disobeying his command to not eat the forbidden fruit. He also allowed the Serpent to tempt Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. The poor devil was a pawn in God's cosmic game, too. Later on in mankind's story, God gets pretty ticked off at his creation because man is morally corrupt to the core, so he destroys mankind, except for Noah and his family, in a global flood. Furthermore, he knew he would do this before he created Adam and Eve (as he is all knowing, all powerful, and ever present). So, rather than learn from hundreds of years of watching his own creation go down the toilet, he starts the process all over again after he kills off the entire world population, except for Noah and his family, or at least this is what happened, according to the Bible.

I've written all of this to emphasize that if God does exist and the Bible is, in fact, true and accurate, then mankind is simply another pawn in God's cosmic game, and Job thought he had it bad when God went after him to prove his own superior power to Satan. In, conclusion, I'd like to say that I tried to keep my venting rant simple and concise. Please excuse me if I missed a step or two along the way while I was writing my personal frustration in this post. Please feel free to add any commentary, as you see fit.

I could never believe in God, let alone that God is just, if I believed in the literal interpretation of the Adam and Eve story and the Christian doctrine associated with it, that we needed Jesus to die to remove the original sin committed by Adam and Eve.

Thankfully I am a Baha'i so I don't believe that. I believe that the story of Adam and Eve is an allegory, not a true story. I believe that the story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise is a symbol. The story contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of many explanations.

The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of God to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.

The full explanation of what I believe about the allegory is in this chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE

Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality. Some Answered Questions, p. 118

 

[RestlessSoul]

You are engaged in what I see as some very romantic and wishful thinking. What helps rebuild after disaster is need -- and effort.

We are a social animal, and that drives us to help those around us -- because we need them, not because we love them.

I will tell you this, humans motivated by fear (even those who think they are worshippers of "the love of Christ") are easy-peasy to convince to lynch the object of their fear. Look at history.

I agree with some of this, though obviously not about the wishful thinking accusation - love is more than an emotion, it is a tangible, unbounded force for good in the world. This is what some religious people mean, when they say that God is love.

But I do agree that fear is one of the most powerful tools in the tyrant’s armoury.

A very wise man once said, “Let us love the best in others, and never fear their worst”.

As for need and effort, have you ever heard of a labour of love? The working man - and woman’s - burden is a lot lighter, when their motive is love.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Well I choose to believe in a God, but am unable to believe.

Collateral damage sounds like a military thing; strictly human.

I guess I'm stuck where you are at only I go one step further; I am convinced no God is there.

The intelligent source of all of existence is more like nature, and far less then divine.

https://www.google.com/collections/s/list/hi6BIh0K7rP9gzY9F0wqggOQEhGQrQ/L_54EJabnYk

You’re only stuck if you say you are stuck; in truth, we are always moving. The question may be, what am I moving towards?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Do you completely miss all the suffering in this world and only see the good? I guess I don't get it and I never will. I really should have been an atheist as my husband always says. I do not think like a believer at all.

If you think God exists, you think like a believer. Questions on God's nature are still entirely possible.

I've often wondered how some of my friends can worship God, given their personal belief on the nature of God. I get that they think he's real. But worship Him?

I have other friends who believe in a much more gentle God. And their worship makes sense.

To me, your thoughts on God's existence and on God's nature are separate questions, if loosely related.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

You’re only stuck if you say you are stuck; in truth, we are always moving. The question may be, what am I moving towards?

It might also be that the journey is more important than the destination.

 

[osgart]

You’re only stuck if you say you are stuck; in truth, we are always moving. The question may be, what am I moving towards?

Perhaps the journey is more important than the destination. I have my own religion about things. Heading towards oblivion or some other thing.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Of course it is reasonable. Much more than making up an explanation. Because, let be honest, all theists not sharing your particular brand of god must have made her up. And you seem to found all your belief on incredulity, Incredulity that things can exist without any cause nor reason. Arguments by incredulity are a logical fallacy, that makes your all reasoning technically irrational.

So, let us suppose I also get a mental storm, some sort of mental state change, and start seeing the need of a god, or something beyond, to explain things. Which one should I choose, considering the high probability of choosing the wrong one?

I still have no answer to that.

Ciao

- viole

How can you hope to answer a question before you have even asked it? First, you have to search, then you can decide how to interpret what you find.

 

[viole]

How can you hope to answer a question before you have even asked it? First, you have to search, then you can decide how to interpret what you find.

Well, if you followed the thread, you will notice that I asked it.

But we all know there is no answer. There is no rational way to decide, under the assumption that a God exists, which one it is.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

The logical conclusion is that some people have misconceptions about the existing deity so some people are wrong and some people are right.

Misconceptions are relative.

Ciao

- viole