Why do Christians defend the horrendously brutal and genocidal God of the Old Testament?

[loverofhumanity]

I

Is this a popup ad for Bahai?

It was in answer to the claim that spirituality did not address this life’s problems and was just pie in the sky stuff.

Religion does indeed address everyday concerns and is not only concerned with the after life.

That was the point I was trying to make. All religions not just Bahá’í work for the betterment of humanity.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't need and certainly don't want some theocracy telling me how to live my life, especially when it's edicts are based on the commands of an invisible man in the sky. I realized without religion that I would rather live in a world where people treat each other with respect and have empathy for each other. You don't need religious mumbo jumbo for that, just common sense will suffice.

The concept of equal human rights for all, that all people see each other and humanity as one family is exactly what I’m talking about.

If we can all accept each other as part of one human family and the earth as our home wouldn’t that be nice? That’s what I think we all want and need- a prejudice free, live and let live world.

 

[74x12]

So you admit you were wrong when you said everyone has fair warning. If everyone did have fair warning that still doesn't make torturing bad people a good act. Saying that god can do anything because he's god doesn't make what he does good. It says in the bible that god creates both good and evil. Why would a being that is only goodness and light EVER create evil and cause suffering? That would defy logic. Even a blood thirsty gangster can be loving to his family. That's how the god of the bible comes across. He gives allowances to his favorites and is ruthless with everyone else.

We believe everyone who is punished had fair warning. God will always do so. God is a great King in heaven although He is fair. Yet, He demands homage. He has the right because He is the great King. There is no one like God. Not even the sun compares to God. And angels give Him praise even though they are much smarter than we are and more knowledgeable.

We believe the law of reaping and sowing. God does not enjoy torturing even satan. The prophet Jeremiah said that he weeps in secret places for their pride because they would not hear his message. I believe God weeps in secret places because people refuse to repent.

We believe God allowed evil so that good could triumph over it. Satan was allowed to fall away and cause a conspiracy against God in heaven and earth; so that the way of darkness would be known and condemned for what it is. In doing so it provides the conditions necessary to bring into being the many things that will be so valuable forever. This earth is God's garden growing the fruits of good.

We believe and know this current creation is not the final creation. The 7th day has not yet fully come for us. As it says God rested on the 7th day from all His work. Why does God still work then? So everything will be good and the truth will be known and every argument will be resolved; when this current age is finished and the universe is rolled up as a scroll is rolled.

It SHOULD be common knowledge in this day and age that brain function determines our behavior and personality. Some people are prone to violent thoughts and actions because their brain is wired that way. This is documented fact not opinion. If a god created everyone, then he created people with mental disorders that make them do bad things. That's reality and it doesn't mesh with the belief system many Christians hold.

We believe the devil has sown tears among the wheat. Even in our minds he has sown his seed. This evil genius wants to keep us in total spiritual slavery. However, there is evidence against him that is all around us. This evidence is the power of God which is always working. Because God is able to cleanse and deliver. Jesus said that He came to the destroy the works of the evil one. Even though we are all born messed up(some more, some less); yet God is able to save everyone of us. Why should anyone identify themselves with the wicked? Faith tells us that we can be who He says we should be and that we can be defined by the promises that are good.

We believe this:
"For I have known the thoughts that I am thinking towards you -- an affirmation of Jehovah; thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give to you posterity and hope."

We believe Satan wants us to look only on our faults and failures. He tells us we are unworthy to be saved. God does not care. He knows we are unworthy. Yet, God still loves us all. Therefore faith is what overcomes the world. So if you're the chosen then God will bless you against all the odds.

 

[David T]

Gee thanks. I don't have a clue what you mean.

Church is normal. People can get together and collectively say"we believe" but that's total nonsense and normal. Another group can say in rebuttle "we do not believe" thats nonsense and normal. Another group can go "we are agnostic" to the other two and thats normal and nonsense as well. So which normal nonsense is right?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

That's how the god of the bible comes across. He gives allowances to his favorites and is ruthless with everyone else.

Have you seen how He treats His favorites? With friends like that, who needs enemies?

We believe everyone who is punished had fair warning. God will always do so. God is a great King in heaven although He is fair.

How does the Book of Job confirm this? In fact, it goes to great lengths to criticize this very idea.

He has the right because He is the great King.

Kings who torture subjects just because they can aren't "great" at all.

God does not enjoy torturing even satan.

He doesn't cry about it much, either.

I guess God is like the Sultan in Aladdin, spending the entire movie bemoaning the rules about his daughter marrying a prince and forgetting HE CAN MAKE THE LAWS.

The prophet Jeremiah said that he weeps in secret places for their pride because they would not hear his message.

The messenger who fails to deliver the message should be held accountable.

Company: Okay, PR Guy, our sales are tanking and yet you think you should keep your job?
PR Guy: Why, yes, because I weep the customers just aren't listening to our message.
Company: You realize you're fired, right?

We believe the devil has sown tears among the wheat.

And God lacks the manpower to weed them out? His only solution is to promise the wheat they will be favored and then burn down the field anyway?

This evil genius wants to keep us in total spiritual slavery.

No, that would be God. You said God can treat us however He wants.

Jesus said that He came to the destroy the works of the evil one.

And that didn't work, or he wouldn't have to promise to come back.

Why should anyone identify themselves with the wicked?

A single day also includes the night.

 

[metis]

This is not a response to anyone's post here, but let me just say that Aquinas felt that one simply could not take all that's written in the OT at the literal level because there's too many inconsistencies. For example, how could a loving God "harden Pharaoh's heart" that led to the death of a great many innocent children?

 

[JustWondering]

The concept of equal human rights for all, that all people see each other and humanity as one family is exactly what I’m talking about.

If we can all accept each other as part of one human family and the earth as our home wouldn’t that be nice? That’s what I think we all want and need- a prejudice free, live and let live world.

That would be great, if you look back at history however, religion has done more to get in the way of such a dream than its done to make it happen.

 

[JustWondering]

We believe everyone who is punished had fair warning. God will always do so. God is a great King in heaven although He is fair. Yet, He demands homage. He has the right because He is the great King. There is no one like God. Not even the sun compares to God. And angels give Him praise even though they are much smarter than we are and more knowledgeable.

We believe the law of reaping and sowing. God does not enjoy torturing even satan. The prophet Jeremiah said that he weeps in secret places for their pride because they would not hear his message. I believe God weeps in secret places because people refuse to repent.

We believe God allowed evil so that good could triumph over it. Satan was allowed to fall away and cause a conspiracy against God in heaven and earth; so that the way of darkness would be known and condemned for what it is. In doing so it provides the conditions necessary to bring into being the many things that will be so valuable forever. This earth is God's garden growing the fruits of good.

We believe and know this current creation is not the final creation. The 7th day has not yet fully come for us. As it says God rested on the 7th day from all His work. Why does God still work then? So everything will be good and the truth will be known and every argument will be resolved; when this current age is finished and the universe is rolled up as a scroll is rolled.


We believe the devil has sown tears among the wheat. Even in our minds he has sown his seed. This evil genius wants to keep us in total spiritual slavery. However, there is evidence against him that is all around us. This evidence is the power of God which is always working. Because God is able to cleanse and deliver. Jesus said that He came to the destroy the works of the evil one. Even though we are all born messed up(some more, some less); yet God is able to save everyone of us. Why should anyone identify themselves with the wicked? Faith tells us that we can be who He says we should be and that we can be defined by the promises that are good.

We believe this:
"For I have known the thoughts that I am thinking towards you -- an affirmation of Jehovah; thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give to you posterity and hope."

We believe Satan wants us to look only on our faults and failures. He tells us we are unworthy to be saved. God does not care. He knows we are unworthy. Yet, God still loves us all. Therefore faith is what overcomes the world. So if you're the chosen then God will bless you against all the odds.

So you believe needless torture is good? What great morals and ethics your religion teaches you. I can't share your might makes right ideology.

Your supposed great king created a flawed, broken system and allows it to stay broken so that someday when he finally decides to fix it he can say "Aren't I great? I fixed it!". It occurs to me that an actual great creator, that knew what it was doing and cared for it's creation wouldn't have created evil or a broken world in the first place. Every time you try to do apologetics for your god you make him sound like a lunatic and sadistic tyrant. However, since you drank the cool aid you don't hear it, you just mindlessly accept and parrot what's spoon fed to you, without giving it any critical thought.

 

[Astravalon]

Cognitive dissonance.

Btw, I have my own theory and beliefs about the bullying nature of the biblical God...

See, what I believe is that he is no different than any other asura or rakshasa running amok and bullying the universe... e.g. Mahabali, Hiranyakashipu, Ravana, Mahishasura, or any of that ilk. And we know what happened to them. For reasons I'm too small and human to understand, Lord Vishnu is letting him run amok and giving him enough rope. Scriptures say we have to wait another 428,898 years before Vishnu appears on Earth again to kick butt (seems his work is never done). Yeah well, I haven't got all day, er I mean eternity.

That's somewhat like my theory. The god perceived through the Old
Testament isn't *The* God. It's a demigod with Loki-esque
tendencies. Sooner or later *The* God will get him to just chill out
already.


-

 

[Jean Valjean]

The same material asking such question, would go for an theodice...

The answer refuting both, answering both questions! it is because he doesn't allow evil.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

According to the Bible; God judges people based on their knowledge level. So to those much is given, much is required. (Luke 12:48) I don't believe in a God that will punish people without a reason. God goes off the principle of reaping what you sow. So, just because someone wasn't born into a Christian family and therefore never heard the gospel or whatever that doesn't mean they'll be condemned. They can't be condemned for not knowing.

Why should a person be reasonably condemned if they did reject Christianity when having been raised in it? Christianity makes some claims it isn't a far leap for the thinking mind to doubt. You think God would punish legitimate doubt? Well, that makes the OP's case nicely.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

but let me just say that Aquinas felt

Aquinas is a good deal above the heads of the average fundamentalist. He was a crypto-Aristotlean, but I won't go into that.

 

[74x12]

Why should a person be reasonably condemned if they did reject Christianity when having been raised in it? Christianity makes some claims it isn't a far leap for the thinking mind to doubt. You think God would punish legitimate doubt? Well, that makes the OP's case nicely.

I can't say who God condemns because He knows the hearts and minds.

 

[74x12]

So you believe needless torture is good? What great morals and ethics your religion teaches you. I can't share your might makes right ideology.

Your supposed great king created a flawed, broken system and allows it to stay broken so that someday when he finally decides to fix it he can say "Aren't I great? I fixed it!". It occurs to me that an actual great creator, that knew what it was doing and cared for it's creation wouldn't have created evil or a broken world in the first place. Every time you try to do apologetics for your god you make him sound like a lunatic and sadistic tyrant. However, since you drank the cool aid you don't hear it, you just mindlessly accept and parrot what's spoon fed to you, without giving it any critical thought.

I do not believe in needless torture ... To each his own. You think I'm mindless, spoon fed and without critical thinking skills. I was trying to expand your view. Give you an alternate opinion. It's obvious I'm wasting my time.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

I can't say who God condemns because He knows the hearts and minds.

Oh come on! You were so keen to talk about who God would condemn in several other posts. Remember this response, when you go to do the other again.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That would be great, if you look back at history however, religion has done more to get in the way of such a dream than its done to make it happen.

My understanding is that it’s not religion that has been the cause of problems but the lack of it.

If we all truly loved one another what kind of world does that tell you this would be right now?

 

[74x12]

Oh come on! You were so keen to talk about who God would condemn in several other posts. Remember this response, when you go to do the other again.

Your question was much too broad. I can't condemn a whole group of people with my limited knowledge. Anyway you may be misunderstanding some things I've said previously. I don't know. Besides I don't think there is much(if any) profit in discussing these kind of things with you.

 

[syo]

The god of the Old Testament is evil depraved and vicious demanding complete subjugation.

yes, but the new testament negates the old testament.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The God of the Old Testament concluded the Flood was a bit much. The New Testament God has no such reservations.

 

[JustWondering]

My understanding is that it’s not religion that has been the cause of problems but the lack of it.

If we all truly loved one another what kind of world does that tell you this would be right now?

I'll say it again, you don't need religion to love your neighbor and treat others with kindness. This delusion that the world needs YOUR idea of the perfect world which involves everyone bowing to a theocracy is more divisive then helpful.