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Why do Christians go against this logic when it comes to religion?

HoldemDB9

Active Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but everyone on the planet works like this - If someone tells them that something exists, until evidence/proof is provided, they will not believe. But when it comes to religion they go against this. It is the only part of their lives where they go against this sound logic. Its just common sense. You don't believe in fairies if you haven't got any evidence/proof that suggests that they exists. Why do you go against this when it comes to religion? I want to know the reason. Is it because religion is important? Is it because you like the way it sounds compared to not believing? That would explain why almost every Christian cherry picks and follows the parts of the bible that they like the sound of, but reject the parts they don't like the sound of. I have nothing against Christians, I just think that they are dangerously deluded. I just cannot understand how any decent person can believe in a "certain" religion. Why (Christians) don't you follow any of the other hundreds of religions? Why do you say that non believers are "rejecting" Christ, even though they have great, correct, sound, logical reason for non-belief. Whereas a theists reason for belief are based almost entirely on faith. Why cant you just understand that some people are too open minded to believe that a random person named Jesus Christ is the son of god, just because an old book says he is?
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but everyone on the planet works like this - If someone tells them that something exists, until evidence/proof is provided, they will not believe. But when it comes to religion they go against this. It is the only part of their lives where they go against this sound logic. Its just common sense. You don't believe in fairies if you haven't got any evidence/proof that suggests that they exists. Why do you go against this when it comes to religion? I want to know the reason. Is it because religion is important? Is it because you like the way it sounds compared to not believing? That would explain why almost every Christian cherry picks and follows the parts of the bible that they like the sound of, but reject the parts they don't like the sound of. I have nothing against Christians, I just think that they are dangerously deluded. I just cannot understand how any decent person can believe in a "certain" religion. Why (Christians) don't you follow any of the other hundreds of religions? Why do you say that non believers are "rejecting" Christ, even though they have great, correct, sound, logical reason for non-belief. Whereas a theists reason for belief are based almost entirely on faith. Why cant you just understand that some people are too open minded to believe that a random person named Jesus Christ is the son of god, just because an old book says he is?

This question betrays too many misunderstandings to deal with in any detail, so I'll be perfunctory. (1) I'm a Christian and I believe I'm following the evidence in doing so. (2) I recognize that there are those who disagree with me that I'm following the evidence correctly. I've heard counter arguments and found them wanting. Therefore, (1) stands. (3) I don't follow another religion because I'm convinced that Christianity is true. See (1). (4) I say that nonbelievers "reject" Christ if and only if they've heard the gospel and rejected it. In rejecting the gospel (whether they think they're doing so for good reasons or not), they're rejecting Christ. Given (1), it's hard to see what else I could say about this situation. (5) Your characterization of "random" for Jesus demonstrates that you have no idea in the world what you're talking about. (6) The bible is not the only witness to the Christian claim that Jesus is the son of God. It's an important witness, yes, but not the only one. And there are ways and means of testing even this "old book" for veracity. There are good reasons for thinking the NT is historically accurate to a degree sufficiently precise as to force an intellectually honest person to deal with its associated theological claims. Of course, you may disagree, but I doubt very much your disagreement is based on anything more than prejudice.

Hmm, that's not as perfunctory as I intended. :)
 

Bucket

Member
Not every Christian "cherry picks" verses to quote or believe in. Some Christians have faith, which defies "logic" sometimes. I believe in the theme of the Bible, the lessons, and the miracle. But, I don't "buy" any single verse as a stand-alone. Too many people have messed with the Bible over many centuries to think it could be strictly God's word. But, I think the themes and lessons are gifts of God.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
But when it comes to religion they go against this.
I wouldn't be a Christian without sufficient evidence...

Why do you say that non believers are "rejecting" Christ, even though they have great, correct, sound, logical reason for non-belief.
Well... you kind of are rejecting Christ if you... reject Christ... but as to the qualifiers for reasons for non-belief I only have objection to correct ;) Great is an opinion, can't argue that... and what seemed sound logic at the time has given us some pretty wrong ideas ;)

Why cant you just understand that some people are too open minded to believe that a random person named Jesus Christ is the son of god, just because an old book says he is?
I'm not sure "open minded" is what you meant there... as an open mind would be... open...

just because an old book says he is?
As Dunemeister said, it isn't "just because an old book says", the Church outdates the Bible by quite a few years ;)
 

Worshipper

Active Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but everyone on the planet works like this - If someone tells them that something exists, until evidence/proof is provided, they will not believe.
Okay. I'll correct you! :D

People almost always believe anything they're told with little to no evidence and they hardly ever require proof for anything. Look at the idea of anthropogenic global warming — very little evidence to suggest it, lots of counter-evidence, and no proof at all; yet millions of people believe in it religiously. And the overwhelming majority of the people who believe in it don't believe in it because they were ever shown any evidence. They were just told it was so by someone they decided to trust (like a teacher or a news anchor).

If people required evidence/proof before they believed in stuff, then how in the world did the Soviet Union ever happen? How did the United States Congress vote overwhelmingly to invade Iraq? How did Britney Spears ever sell albums to people who weren't her blood relatives?

We are all dupes, and we are all quick to believe whatever just about anyone halfway decent decides to tell us.

Of course, sometimes we do believe things with evidence and even proof, but that's really quite rare.

Whereas a theists reason for belief are based almost entirely on faith.
As Mister Emu pointed out, not all Christians accept Christianity with no evidence. Many of us only accept it after receiving sufficient evidence to overwhelm any possible counter-evidence. Some even claim to have received proof.

Like Mister Emu, I would not be a Christian without having received enough evidence to convince me. It's precisely because religion is important that I actually required so much evidence.

If religion weren't so important, I would probably be content to accept it on blind faith, the same way I accept, say, the idea that Sarah Palin is the governor of Alaska — something I have only ever gotten hearsay evidence about.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but everyone on the planet works like this - If someone tells them that something exists, until evidence/proof is provided, they will not believe.

I have seen no evidence to assume this. I think individuals are prone to providing any statement credibility just by processing the meaning of the statement. In other words, skepticism requires more active thought than belief.

Yes, I did just say that.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
In other words, skepticism requires more active thought than belief.
I disagree... skepticism requires no more active thought than belief... One can be just as an ill-informed unreasoned skeptic as they can an ill-informed unreasoned believer.
 

HoldemDB9

Active Member
I don't follow another religion because I'm convinced that Christianity is true.

But have you tried any other religions? Ive always thought that if I studied the Bible and learnt about Christianity, I would think it was true as well. But if I studied any other religions in depth, I would think the same of them. Haven't you ever realized that if you were born in a different country or had different parents, friends or influences, you would believe in one of the other hundreds of religions. You would be saying the same about that religion. That the evidence is good enough for me. That I'm convinced its true. That is pretty scary to me.



I say that nonbelievers "reject" Christ if and only if they've heard the gospel and rejected it. In rejecting the gospel (whether they think they're doing so for good reasons or not), they're rejecting Christ.

So everyone is wrong and is going to be punished just because they have heard of the gospel and rejected it? If god is one bit fair, then this cant be true. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but Ive always heard that the number one rule is that you "believe". But we don't choose what we want to believe in, at least I certainly don't. So how can I be doing something wrong, if I'm not choosing to reject Christ? Don't you realize that for some people it is just a lot harder to believe? What about someone who was brought up in another religion? What about someone like me, who was brought up without religion and lives in a society where religion is almost dead? Ive certainly heard of the gospel, but Ive also heard of many other religions. I know to you, Christianity is important, but to me it is just another religion. I have absolutely no reason to pick it. So I guess I am rejecting Christ, but it cant be a bad thing. Because even if you were in my situation, you would be doing the same. I hope you understand what I mean.

Your characterization of "random" for Jesus demonstrates that you have no idea in the world what you're talking about.

Well I'm no expert on religion, far from it. But I think I do know what I am talking about. Ive come to this forum to try to find answers to some of the big questions that are stopping me from being a believer. I came here from Yahoo Answers because that place is full of highly ignorant deluded Christian nuts, who just wont give you a serious answer. This place (and you) seem a hell of a lot better so far. I called Jesus "random" because that is exactly what he is. There are hundreds and hundreds of other religions with people like Jesus in them. I have no religion at the moment, so to call Jesus a "random person" is a perfect description. I dont mean a random person like everyone in the world. I mean a random person in comparison to all of the other hundreds of religions, that are equal to Christianity. I know it might be hard for you as a Christian to think of Jesus as just a random religious figure, but that is all he his.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
But have you tried any other religions? Ive always thought that if I studied the Bible and learnt about Christianity, I would think it was true as well. But if I studied any other religions in depth, I would think the same of them. Haven't you ever realized that if you were born in a different country or had different parents, friends or influences, you would believe in one of the other hundreds of religions. You would be saying the same about that religion. That the evidence is good enough for me. That I'm convinced its true. That is pretty scary to me.

Sure, there's some truth to the idea that I have the religion I have partly because of accidents of history. Were I born in India, perhaps I'd find Hinduism or Islam more compelling than Christianity simply because of the culture I was raised in. If things were different, they just wouldn't be the same.

But what am I supposed to do in light of this? Do nothing in the face of my own deeper need to understand my world and situate myself within it? Should I therefore ignore the claims made by the religions closer to hand than those far away? I don't see why. And the beautiful thing about the modern western world is that no decision goes unchallenged. Christianity makes sense to me and accords with the evidence. But I've got loads of atheists, New Agers, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, animists, spiritists, and <insert favorite religion here> with whom I can interact and who challenge me either implicitly or explicitly. So there actually is plenty of opportunity and reason to make comparisons between Christianity and other religions on an ad hoc basis. I've taken those opportunities, and, so help me, Christianity still comes out favorably.

So everyone is wrong and is going to be punished just because they have heard of the gospel and rejected it? If god is one bit fair, then this cant be true.

You're exactly right.

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but Ive always heard that the number one rule is that you "believe". But we don't choose what we want to believe in, at least I certainly don't. So how can I be doing something wrong, if I'm not choosing to reject Christ? Don't you realize that for some people it is just a lot harder to believe? What about someone who was brought up in another religion? What about someone like me, who was brought up without religion and lives in a society where religion is almost dead? Ive certainly heard of the gospel, but Ive also heard of many other religions. I know to you, Christianity is important, but to me it is just another religion. I have absolutely no reason to pick it. So I guess I am rejecting Christ, but it cant be a bad thing. Because even if you were in my situation, you would be doing the same. I hope you understand what I mean.

I get it. I really do. I was in a situation much like yours, but eventually I did investigate Christianity and found that it simply made sense more than other views. And like you, I don't have a sense of having chosen Christianity of my own accord. It's more like it got hold of me. So to an extent, I share your worry about how God can be fair in judging me for a failure to believe in light of the fact that I can't just up and believe something that seems flat wrong (as Christianity appears to you, perhaps). May I suggest that you read the first three chapters of Paul's Letter to the Church at Rome? It addresses this worry fairly directly.

I called Jesus "random" because that is exactly what he is. There are hundreds and hundreds of other religions with people like Jesus in them.

Here, you're merely reinforcing my original statement.

I have no religion at the moment, so to call Jesus a "random person" is a perfect description. I dont mean a random person like everyone in the world. I mean a random person in comparison to all of the other hundreds of religions, that are equal to Christianity. I know it might be hard for you as a Christian to think of Jesus as just a random religious figure, but that is all he his.

Again with the reinforcement. On what basis do you say that Christianity is equal to all the others? You're going completely on presumption here. Has no one taken the time to explain to you the uniqueness of Jesus? Are you unaware that if there had been no Jesus, there would have been no Christianity? You might be able to substitute another person as the initiator of other religions, but such a substitution wouldn't work for Christianity. So there's no sense in which the word "random" fits this particular case.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
I disagree... skepticism requires no more active thought than belief... One can be just as an ill-informed unreasoned skeptic as they can an ill-informed unreasoned believer.

Ill informed is irrelevant to the statement.

We are talking about predisposition of the human brain granting credibility, or a certain level of validity, to any statement prior to any conscious attempt to accept or reject the validity of such a statement.
 
The Bible is the inspired Word of God and thus The Guide to moral living for the devout and faithful. To believe this is to accept The Truth. To accept The Truth is to hold an open heart. To hold an open heart, you have to be courageous to stand up on principle. The Truth shall set you free! (John 8:35).
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Ill informed is irrelevant to the statement.
I would consider being informed on a topic as a large part of active thought, as opposed to accepting or disregarding a claim out of hand... It is highly possible I misunderstood what you meant...

We are talking about predisposition of the human brain granting credibility, or a certain level of validity, to any statement prior to any conscious attempt to accept or reject the validity of such a statement.
From what I have seen, though I am by no means an authority on such a matter, it is more a matter of the person making the statement given a certain level of credibility that flows to all of their statements...
 
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Sententia

Well-Known Member
The Bible is the inspired Word of God

In your opinion. This is not fact. What god? Ra? Zeus? Set? Thor? Odin? Krishna? You?

Bible... what is it? Who wrote the peices of it? Who editted it? Which bible even?

The Guide to moral living for the devout and faithful.

Outrageous lies. What morals are derived from the bible? Those who claim morality only under fear of punishment can not claim to be moral. Can they? What say you? Are the two connected?

Do not confuse your personal beliefs with an imposition or requirement on others. There is no proof for what you believe but you are in a free country and free to
believe what you need too. Morality does not have its basis in religion. It does not require or need religion. Religion can minupulate and be used to justify anything... The burning of witches, hanging of blasphemers or the carving out of their tongues... just think historically what religion has done. Has the word of religion fundamentally changed since people were using it for these nefarious purposes?

What is different?

I'm not arguing religion is fundamentally evil... its obviously not... neither is a sword or a gun evil... but religion likes swords and guns is just a tool... A gun can stop a charging rhino or kill your loved ones... is the gun evil?

My wife told me once that my car crashed into the curb... Did the car do it?

What some people regard as evidence is ludicrous. People claim god speaks to them... or the saw Mother theresa in toast or the stump of a tree and thus god exists... the mind sees what you condition it to see.... Ask any detective who deals with witnesses...

Now there are numerous god faqs out there for you to reference but humor aside its just supersticious mumbo jumbo...

In my country, the US of A... most people have no ability to filter truth from fiction... if it sounds like something they have been conditioned to believe they believe it and thats really all they need. If it sounds like something that goes against their conditioned beliefs they resist it.

Click here for a million dollars a month, easy assembly, work at your own pace.... Call 1 800 Psychic friends and get your palm read today. Jesus saves and watch out for the devil hes gonna get ya... The boogey man lives in the closet and aliens are real and visiting us today. Hide under your covers cause freddy is real too.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
I would consider being informed on a topic as a large part of active thought, as opposed to accepting or disregarding a claim out of hand... It is highly possible I misunderstood what you meant...


From what I have seen, though I am by no means an authority on such a matter, it is more a matter of the person making the statement given a certain level of credibility that flows to all of their statements...

Addressing your latter statement-----that very well may be true. I have been trying in vain to find this study discussing how people grant a certain level of validity to information just through the process of the brain discerning the meaning of the statement. Unfortunately I have been unable to find it. I don't know how it applies to information taken in which we already have experience, or in other words, already developed an informed opinion. I know when someone tells me about their belief in aliens I do not grant such a concept a truth value in that the aliens exist because it's something I've read too much about and talked about. I wish I could find that study.
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
Addressing your latter statement-----that very well may be true. I have been trying in vain to find this study discussing how people grant a certain level of validity to information just through the process of the brain discerning the meaning of the statement. Unfortunately I have been unable to find it. I don't know how it applies to information taken in which we already have experience, or in other words, already developed an informed opinion. I know when someone tells me about their belief in aliens I do not grant such a concept a truth value in that the aliens exist because it's something I've read too much about and talked about. I wish I could find that study.

As a place to start... They said on the news recently that months ago the majority of the country, usa, has already decided who their going to vote for. Only a very small percentage is said to change their mind based on any contridicting information or debates.

Im not sure what their source was... Gallup perhaps? I know Obama or McCain it doesnt seem to matter. People know who their gonna vote for and really dont know anything about either candidate. Someone told me today their voting McCain because hes pro choice, religious tolerant and is running a campaign based on change and thats what our country needs... change.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
As a place to start... They said on the news recently that months ago the majority of the country, usa, has already decided who their going to vote for. Only a very small percentage is said to change their mind based on any contridicting information or debates.

Im not sure what their source was... Gallup perhaps? I know Obama or McCain it doesnt seem to matter. People know who their gonna vote for and really dont know anything about either candidate. Someone told me today their voting McCain because hes pro choice, religious tolerant and is running a campaign based on change and thats what our country needs... change.

First, I've already lost track of what this thread is about generally speaking.

Second, I also hear about the polls stating that most people are already decided in their vote. I think a lot of that is founded on the idea that many if not most people will only vote a certain party line. I do not have any evidence supporting the truth of that statement. It seems as though the debates and the post-primary campaigning are merely a formality for some. It's the party rather than the individual that matters.
 
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