Why do Christians hate muslims?

[chookyman]

First of all I am a Muslim from Turkey...Osama Ben Laden is one of the world's richest men. He could be better but he chose to fight for his religion. If USA wouldn't attack Muslims, 11th september wouldn't have happened. (sorry for my language)

Here are the reasons why Christians hate Muslims:
1- At the all time of the history, Muslims always been conquering Christian lands
2- Muslims are creators of OTTOMAN EMPIRE and MAMELUKE EMPIRE.
3- Islam is the fastest growing way of life in the world. In next 50 years, Islam will be bigger than Chrisitianity.
4- Most of the scientists, populars are Muslim. (example: Neil Armstrong, Mohammed Ali, Will Smith etc.) that creates a "losership" in christs.

I can count many more reasons. Take Care and read Qor'an. Most of the Muslims were Christians. They became Muslim by reading Qor'an and finding found the right way.

GL!

3- Islam is the fastest growing way of life in the world. In next 50 years, Islam will be bigger than Chrisitianity.

I am sorry, but I have to say something here about this.

1) Unlike most religions today, Islam still holds strongly to the fact if you want to marry a muslim (whether male or female), you must convert to islam. However if the person does this for marriage, deep in their hearts they are not a muslim if they do not practice or believe in the religion.

2) In some countries where islam is the main religion, men can still marry up to four wives, meaning in most cases their ofspring is not doubled, but Quadrupled many times over.

If it was not for these two factors, Islam today would only be a small religion..... The main point is, a religion should be judged by those who want to be in the religion based on their hearts. Only this would reflect the true follows of a belief, over those who are muslim and do not follow the faith or just by marriage who also do not follow the faith.

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

Islam is a religion of the sword. I would contest that statement of Christians killing Muslims leading to Sept. 11th. I'm tired of the guilt trip these people try to pull. One, the Muslims have tried to kill Christians for the last thousand years. Many muslim lands are former Christian lands forcibly converted by the sword. Islam is not the friendly religion that everyone thinks it is. Indeed, I believe that they have a belief that if you die in a jihad you can go to heaven with seventy virgin wives there to meet you.

 

[Runt]

Islam is a religion of the sword. I would contest that statement of Christians killing Muslims leading to Sept. 11th. I'm tired of the guilt trip these people try to pull. One, the Muslims have tried to kill Christians for the last thousand years. Many muslim lands are former Christian lands forcibly converted by the sword. Islam is not the friendly religion that everyone thinks it is. Indeed, I believe that they have a belief that if you die in a jihad you can go to heaven with seventy virgin wives there to meet you.

Now now now, aren't we being a little hypocritical? All these things can be said about Christianity. Consider these verses from your own Bible and tell me again that your religion is NOT a religion of the sword and does NOT condone killing of infidels... and all in the name of God.

And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.

And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.

And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.

And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

... the Lord spake unto Moses ... And Moses spake unto the people ... And they warred against the Midianites ... and they slew all the males ... And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones ... And Moses said ... 'Have ye saved all the women alive? ... kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that have not known a man by lying with him ... all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves. ...'

If a man have a ... rebellious son, which will not obey, ... his father and mother [shall] lay hold on him, and bring him unto the elders ... and all the men ... shall stone him ... that he die ...

Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.

No devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast ... shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death.

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation: And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation: And levy a tribute unto the Lord of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.

Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.... The king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul ... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD....And after that God was intreated for the land.

Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah.... And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.... And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child.... And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back. And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth.... And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed.

And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

And he slew all the priests of the high places that were there upon the altars, and burned men's bones upon them.

And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein , according to all that he had done to Libnah.

Then Horam king of Gezer came up to help Lachish; and Joshua smote him and his people, until he had left him none remaining.

And they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day , according to all that he had done to Lachish.

And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining , according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein.

And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining : as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.

So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

And all these kings and their land did Joshua take at one time, because the LORD God of Israel fought for Israel.

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.

And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.

Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed."

Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.

 

[anders]

LCMS Sprecher,

You wrote
"Indeed, I believe that they have a belief that if you die in a jihad you can go to heaven with seventy virgin wives there to meet you."

You won't even believe what I believe some Christian believers believe, so that is no argument.

As to the heavenly servants in Islam, they are "youths of perpetual freshness" in surah 56. I find that perfectly unobjectionable, from any point of view. The moral cleanliness of the Muslim heaven is stressed by the mentioning that the drinks will give neither intoxication nor hangovers (same surah).

 

[quick]

You folks take so many verses out of context and do not even know what is being discussed as you quote the Bible. Comical. And Christians do not hate Muslims, although the Muslims do a great job of tempting us to hate them, considering their behavior.

Muslims also confuse the West with Christianity. The West is secular, organized along ethnic and geographical lines; Islam hardly cares about national borders, as we in the West look at them; the East is filled with theocracies or near-theocracies that have little to do with national boundaries. Christianity is for all peoples--a Middle Eastern religion that is everywhere.

Here is the entire Christian moral code, summed up by the Lord Jesus, and it trumps anything else in the Bible--it is the seminal passage. There is no equivalent in the religion of submission, Islam:

22 "(28) All things have been handed over to Me [Jesus] by My Father, and (29) no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
23 (30) Turning to the disciples, He said privately, "Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see,
24 for I say to you, that many prophets and kings wished to see the things which you see, and did not see them, and to hear the things which you hear, and did not hear them."
25 (31) And a (32) lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 And He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?"
27 And he answered, "(33) YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
28 And He said to him, "You have answered correctly; (34) DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."
29 But wishing (35) to justify himself, he said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

30 Jesus replied and said, "A man was (36) going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead.
31 "And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 "Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
33 "But a (37) Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion,
34 and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him.
35 "On the next day he took out two [1] denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.'
36 "Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands?"
37 And he said, "The one who showed mercy toward him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do the same."

That is the summation of God's law, and a definition of one's neighbor. It is the entire Christian moral code--nothing about jihad, killing ones neighbor, etc. Quit quoting out of context. The Old Testament is designed and intended to show man's weakness, and how man cannot live up to God's law--even men of God fall short, men like David, Solomon, Moses and Abraham. This points us to the need for grace through faith in the risen Christ as the only means of salvation. Islam, like every other major religion, teaches its adherents that they must work/study hard to be good enough for God, sometimes even dying in Jihad to get an express trip to paradise; Christianity teaches that while we were yet sinners, God loved us--he saved us by his Son becoming incarnate, living according to the law, and dying as the sacrifice for our sins so justice would be served. God loves us so much that he reached down to and saved us! Christianity is unique and so unusual, no mere man could have dreamt it up.

Let's look at one other point. Mohammed was a powerful poltician and military leader. He was wealthy. His religion was spread by conquest by his own armies, and those of his sons. This continues unabated throughout its history, moderated only when Muslim groups were weak or poor. His religion has never really left the areas in which it was founded in great numbers, namely Asia, North Africa and the Middle East. Jesus was a pauper. He had no wealth and few adherents. He had no army and no political power. He had no sons to rule by inheritance. Yet, the religion founded by this poor, insignifcant teacher that lived only 33 years has more adherents than any other religion in recorded history, and is well-established on every continent, not just in the Middle East. How could this have happened? This is a strong indication that one religion is blessed by God and is the true religion, and one is not.

 

[DontFearMe]

I will have to address this in further detail when time permits me. First saying 'we' take the bible verses out of context, well, how so? what is out of context in those verses? secondly, muhammad wasn't a rich man. there were days when he barely had any food to eat as well as his companions. this is a lie perpetrated by propagandists. and why do christians hate muslims? well, I can address that later. until then...ta ta

 

[quick]

I will have to address this in further detail when time permits me. First saying 'we' take the bible verses out of context, well, how so? what is out of context in those verses? secondly, muhammad wasn't a rich man. there were days when he barely had any food to eat as well as his companions. this is a lie perpetrated by propagandists. and why do christians hate muslims? well, I can address that later. until then...ta ta

Here is a short biography of Mohammed; and Christians do not hate Muslims. Christians are called upon to love everyone, even Muslims. We are also called upon to do justice, which may bring us into conflict, but we are to love you nonetheless.

Mohammed was poor as a young man, but did become wealthy and powerful--see below. Jesus, quite to the contrary, never was rich at any time, never was an earthly ruler, and never was a military leader. His religion spread by the hand of God, not the hand of death. In fact, the mere existence of Christianity as the world's largest religion 2000 years after Jesus lived, considering the worldly insignificance of its founder, is surely a miracle.

Biography of Mohammed

MOHAMMED (Arab. "the Praised"), the name taken at a later period by the founder of Islam. He was originally called Halabi. He was born about the year 570, A.D., at Mecca, and was the son of Abdallah, of the family of Hashini; and of Amina, of the family of Zuhra, both of the powerful tribe of Koreish, but of a side branch only, and therefore of little or no importance. His father, a poor merchant, died either before or shortly after Mohammed's birth. When six years old he also lost his mother. His grandfather, Abd-Al-Mutallib, adopted the boy; and when, two years later, he too died, Mohammed's uncle, Abu Talib, though poor himself, took him into his house, and remained his best friend and protector throughout his whole life. The accounts which have survived of the time of his youth are of too legendary a nature to deserve credit; certain, however, it seems to be, that he at first gained a scanty livelihood by tending the flocks of the Meccans, and that he once or twice accompanied his uncle on his journeys to Southern Arabia and Syria. In his 25th year he entered the service of a rich widow named Chadidja, likewise descended from the Koreish, and accompanied her caravans to the fairs. Up to that time his circumstances were poor. Suddenly his fortune changed. The wealthy, but much older and twice widowed Chadidja offered him her hand which he accepted. Mohammed continued his merchant trade at Mecca, but without much energy, spending most of his time in solitary contemplation. He was 40 years of age when he is said to have received the first divine communication in the solitude of the mountain Hira, near Mecca. He said that Gabriel appeared to him, and in the name of God commanded him to "read" - that is, to preach the true religion, and to spread it abroad by committing it to writing. The writings are contained in the "Koran." Waraka, one of his wife's relatives, who had embraced Judaism, spoke to him of the Jewish doctrine, and told him the story of the patriarchs of Israel.

The fundamental doctrine of the Koran is contained in the two articles of belief: "There is no God but Allah; and Mohammed is his prophet." The Islamic doctrine of God's nature and attributes coincides with the Christian, insofar as he is by both taught to be the Creator of all things in heaven and earth, who rules and preserves all things, without beginning, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and full of mercy. But it differs in that Jesus is only a prophet and apostle, although his birth is said to be due to a miraculous, divine operation.

His first revelation he communicated to no one it would appear, except to Chadidja, his daughters, his stepson Ali, his favorite slave Zaid, and to his friend, the prudent and honest Abu Beker. In the fourth year of his mission, however, he made forty proselytes, chiefly slaves and people from the lower ranks; and now first some verses were revealed to him, commanding him to come forward publicly as a preacher, and to defy the scorn of the unbelievers. The Meccans did not object to his doings; they considered him a common "poet" or "soothsayer," who, moreover, was not in his right senses, or simply a liar. Gradually, however, as the number of his converts increased, they began to pay more and more attention to his proceedings; and finally, fearing mostly for the sacredness of Mecca, which the new doctrine might abolish, thus depriving them of their chief glory, and the ample revenues of the pilgrimages, they rose in fierce opposition against the new prophet and his adherents who dared "to call their ancient gods idols, and their ancestors fools." At last it became necessary that he should be put beyond the reach of his persecutors, and Abu Talib hid him in a fortified castle of his own in the country. Mohammed now conceived the plan to seek refuge in the friendly city of Medina, and about 622 (ten, thirteen or fifteen years - according to the different traditions - after his first assuming the sacred office) he fled thither, about one hundred families of his faithfull having preceeded him some time before, accompanied by Abu Bekr, and reached, not without danger, the town, called thence "City of the Prophet" by way of eminence; and from this flight or rather from the next month of the Arabic year, dates the Muslim Era (Hegira). Now everything was changed to the advantage of the prophet and his religion; and if formerly the incidents of his life are shrouded in comparative obscurity, they are from this date, known often to their most insignificant details. Formerly a despised "madman or imposter," he now assumed at once the position of highest judge, law-giver, and ruler of the city and two most powerful tribes. The most important act in the first year of the Hegira, was his permission to go to war with the enemies of Islam in the name of God - a kind of manifesto chiefly directed against the Meccans. A battle, the first, between 314 Muslims and about 600 Meccans, was fought at Badr, in the second year of the Hegira; the former gained the victory and made many prisoners. A large number of adventurers now flocked to Mohammed's colors, and his power increased so rapidly that in the sixth year of the Hegira he was able to proclaim a public pilgrimage to Mecca. His missionaries at this time began to carry his doctrines abroad, to Chosroes, to Heraclius, to the King of Abyssinia, the Viceroy of Egypt, and the chiefs of several Arabic provinces. Some received the new gospel; but Chosru Parvis, the King of Persia, and Amru, the Ghassanide, rejected his proposals with scorn, and the latter had the messenger executed. The Meccans, now thought the long desired moment of revenge at hand, and broke the peace by committing several acts of violence against the Chuzaites, the allies of Mohammed. The latter, however, marched at the head of 10,000 men against Mecca, before its inhabitants had had time to prepare for the siege, took it, and was publicly recognized by them as chief and prophet. With this the victory of the new religion was secured in Arabia.

Towards the close of the 10th year of the Hegira he undertook, at the head of at least 40,000 Muslims, his last solemn pilgrimage to Mecca, and there (on the Mount Arafat) instructed them in all the important laws and ordinances, chiefly of the pilgrimage; and the ceremonies observed by him on that occasion were fixed for all time. He again solemnly exhorted his believers to righteousness and piety, and chiefly recommended them to protect the weak, the poor, and the women, and to abstain from usury.

Returned from Mecca, he occupied himself again with the carrying out of his expedition against Syria, but fell dangerously ill very soon after his return, and died about noon of Monday the 12th of the third month, in the year 11 of the Hegira (8th of June 632).

 

[Runt]

His religion spread by the hand of God, not the hand of death.

Not the hand of death? First, Christianity did spread "by the sword" (though violence). Why do you think people in the dark ages were afraid to practice any religion other than Christianity? Because they would be burned at the stake! Why do you think so many people in early America were Protestant? Because if they expressed any sentiments slightly different than Protestant doctrine, they were killed or exiled! Have you forgotten these terms: Crusades, Dark Ages, Witch Craze, Spanish Inquizition, and Salem Witch Trials? How about these less dire but still negative terms: excommunication, Anne Hutchinson, and Parnell?

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

Answer to Time Periods for Runt:

Crusades: Total failure for Christianity. We hurt ourselves more than the muslims (we sacked Constantinople more times then getting to Jerusalem). Muslims say they were persecuted in them. Who has the propaganda machine on their side? I will remind you that before the crusades began the Muslims forced their way into the Christian provinces in that area and killed entire towns who would convert. Their methods were cruel. Take the Janissary core for instance, made up of indoctrinated orphans whose families had been massacred in the Muslim invasion. No, the crusades were not a war of aggresion, but defense. Let me remind you that the Muslims wanted Europe and if they had been stopped in Vienna in 1529. The Christians weren't trying to take muslim lands, the muslims were after Christian lands.

Dark Ages: Little historical evidence existed of this time period at all, hence the name, Dark Ages. If you could tell me what this has to do with Christianity unless you are trying to say that it led to the Dark Ages.

Witch Craze: This was a nutty time frame I will give you that. However, you have to look at it this way. Was this Christianity as stated in the Bible, or is it a sinful campaign by a few people and the corrupt catholic church to make themselves look more holy. This was an extremely limited persecution and some of the people executed did practice witchcraft.

Salem Witch Trials: I will group this with the other mentioned Witch Craze event. This was not religious persecution or conversion by the sword either. It was a misunderstanding about a disease that existed in the wheat that caused the accused witches to have visions and hallucinations (which were seen as a sign of witchcraft). The Bible does clearly state that we should put to death false prophets. witchcraft is a satanic art which is cleary anti-God and such followers should meet such an end (if not in this life then the other). This is not to say a grave mistake was made and many of the salem witch trials were politically and socially motivated.

Spanish Inquisition: This was done by a heretical Catholic church that wanted to get rid of political and religious opponents. In the end, it was not scripturally based and was an attempt by the church to maintain power against a growing Protestant threat.

I would note though that these were not conversions by the sword. The Spanish conquistadors are a good example of such a thing occuring. The ancient Catholic church was very heretical and did not truly take scripture as the supreme source of relgious doctrine. They relied on the words of man (the pope) for such doctrinal guidance. This was also related to the conquistadors (who were also Catholic). This is not Christianity, it is a perverted distortion that was created by sinful power-hungry humans. I will also point out that the Christian church did not have to make war to get followers. They were persecuted for many years until the Roman emperor Constantine embraced it. They did not raise a war against the Romans, like Muhammed did against Mecca

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

[48.16] Say to those of the dwellers of the desert who were left behind: You shall soon be invited (to fight) against a people possessing mighty prowess; you will fight against them until they submit; then if you obey, Allah will grant you a good reward; and if you turn back as you turned back before, He will punish you with a painful punishment.
[48.17] There is no harm in the blind, nor is there any harm in the lame, nor is there any harm in the sick (if they do not go forth); and whoever obeys Allah and His Apostle, He will cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, and whoever turns back, He will punish him with a painful punishment.
[48.18] Certainly Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance to you under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity on them and rewarded them with a near victory,
- Excerpt from the Koran, "The Victory"

And who said that the Koran condemned wars for the spread of Islam? This looks like a direct order to join in Jihad and that there were indeed rewards for participating in them.

 

[Runt]

Causes of First Crusade:

Natural human greed

The middle class recognizes that the east is very lucrative.

The aristocracy's need for more land

With raids no longer a threat and their populations recovering, the Christian aristocracy was starting to turn against one another, fighting for one another's land as their population continued to increase.

Royalty's desire to get aristocracy under control

The kings wanted to take power away from the aristocracy and get them to stop fighting one another.

Growth of religious power and enthusiasm needs an outlet

The clergy are becoming more and more powerful, the populace is being filled with more and more religious fervor, and everyone needs a way to express this new energy.

Muslim attacks

Christian pilgrims keep bringing home stories about atrocities committed by Muslim Turks against pilgrims and, even worse, against Christian holy places. The eastern king is worried because Muslims are attacking at his borders, and he's seen some western Christian warriors fight, so he contacts Pope Urban II and asks him to give him some soldiers.

Christian Wrongdoings of First Crusade: out of control, fanatically religious civilian mob kills thousands of Jews in Mainz, utter massacre in Jerusalem (killing people in mosques and burning a synagogue to the ground with Jews inside).

http://www.ukans.edu/kansas/medieval/108/lectures/first_crusade.html

 

[anders]

LCMS Sprecher,

You use a poor and biased interpretation of the Qur'an.

48:16 means more like "You shall go forth to war if you learn discipline, not for booty, but for a great noble cause." (Doesn't that sound very modern?) "For if your opponents sumbit to the cause, there will be no fighting and no booty."

To me, this looks like a direct order to spare any converts and their belongings - a striking contrast to the indiscriminate killings and plunderings by the crusaders.

 

[chamberlain]

Hey runt,

Back to an earlier post of yours where you said "Christianity did spread "by the sword" (though violence). Why do you think people in the dark ages were afraid to practice any religion other than Christianity? Because they would be burned at the stake!"
Your are viewing Christianity in its past. Christianity has certainly progressed from the evil of the dark ages and that of salem and the spanish inquisition. These events all happened hundreds of years ago to say that Christians hate muslims today using the above examples as proof is really silly.
In fact I havent recently seen any graphic videos of Christians beheading innocent people.
It is fair to say that both Islam and Christianity have had violent pasts however Christianity certainly is a religion of peace today as it always should have been.
And we certainly do not hate muslims in fact I pray that he will bless you with peace.

Hey LCMS Sprecher,
I find your posts really great. Are you a lutheran?
Anyway God bless ya and keep the insightful posts coming!

Chamberlain

 

[Ardhanariswar]

alright. anyone can bring up a religions violent past and use it against anything. it makes no difference. christinaity is as guilty as islam.

there are types of jihads. it hink there is jihad of the self and of the sword. somehow islamic FUNDAMENTALISTS brainwash and use the sword out of context to fight against the west (which you confuse for christians, but we are secular). Christianity has the same Fundamentalists. though perhaps they arent as violent, they use words to brainwash other christians. examples, kukluxklan and opus dei and jehova witnesses.

osama bin ladin fights for his religion?!?! are u kidding?
He does it for power. he twists Islamic ideas for his own purposes. its real horrible. but other religions do the same, in different meathods thought. jus look at christianity. they do the same. cept they use words instead of swords.

okay, ill shut up. lol.


dont generalize. not all christians hate muslims, not all muslims hate christians. i can give you my friend's names as proof. i dont need statistics. if muslims and christians did truly hate, they arent really christian or muslim at all! both doctrines dislike hate.

and i feel that the author of this thread is trying to say that islam is better than christianity. well. no. every religion has its differences, but they are valid ways to getting where they want...i hope. you may think differently, but i believe all religions are different pathes to the same goal.

sure the RCC has become increasingly corrupt (news flash), but in doctrine and ideals, they arent.

 

[Ardhanariswar]

alright. anyone can bring up a religions violent past and use it against anything. it makes no difference. christinaity is as guilty as islam.

there are types of jihads. it hink there is jihad of the self and of the sword. somehow islamic FUNDAMENTALISTS brainwash and use the sword out of context to fight against the west (which you confuse for christians, but we are secular). Christianity has the same Fundamentalists. though perhaps they arent as violent, they use words to brainwash other christians. examples, kukluxklan and opus dei and jehova witnesses.

osama bin ladin fights for his religion?!?! are u kidding?
He does it for power. he twists Islamic ideas for his own purposes. its real horrible. but other religions do the same, in different meathods thought. jus look at christianity. they do the same. cept they use words instead of swords.

okay, ill shut up. lol.


dont generalize. not all christians hate muslims, not all muslims hate christians. i can give you my friend's names as proof. i dont need statistics. if muslims and christians did truly hate, they arent really christian or muslim at all! both doctrines dislike hate.

and i feel that the author of this thread is trying to say that islam is better than christianity. well. no. every religion has its differences, but they are valid ways to getting where they want...i hope. you may think differently, but i believe all religions are different pathes to the same goal.

sure the RCC has become increasingly corrupt (news flash), but in doctrine and ideals, they arent.

 

[Runt]

chamberlain--

Your are viewing Christianity in its past. Christianity has certainly progressed from the evil of the dark ages and that of salem and the spanish inquisition.

Only because we live in a time of secular laws rather than religious ones. If this country was run by Christian laws, I know I would have been dead and gone a long time, for does not the Bible state, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", and wasn't that law enforced only about 300 years ago?

How about the Holocaust only 60 years ago? Hitler supposedly hated Christianity, but much of the propaganda used throughout Germany was aimed at making the public believe Jews had wronged Christians and Christianity.

Then there's the killing of Matthew Shepard six years ago in Wyoming. He was beaten, burned, and lashed to a fence overnight in near freezing rain because he was gay. How about the people who came to his funeral to picket, dancing on his grave, and wave their "AIDS cures ****" flags.

How about Eric Rudolph's deadly bombings of abortion clinics eight years ago? How about the anti-abortion extremists in Britain who have warned the public that there "will be casualties" in the coming war, and that they did not intend to "turn the other cheek"?

Pardon me if I don't see any real progression.

These events all happened hundreds of years ago to say that Christians hate muslims today using the above examples as proof is really silly.

I wasn’t using the above examples to show that Christians hate Muslims today. I was responding to the blatant hypocrisy of this thread (which was designed to show that Christians don’t hate Muslims and has been used instead to point out all the crimes committed by Islam and Muslims while conveniently ignoring or neglecting to mention the similar atrocities committed by Christianity and Christians.)

In fact I havent recently seen any graphic videos of Christians beheading innocent people.

Wow, you illustrate my previous point perfectly. Why, in a thread where you are supposed to be trying to argue that Christians do not hate Muslims, are instead busily pointing out all the wrongs Muslims have done?

As for graphic videos of Christian war atrocities: I have not seen any that have been attributed to Christianity. I have, however, seen graphic pictures of Iraqi prisoners standing on boxes with their heads covered and wires attached to their hands and various other abuses to Iraqi POWs. Why do Iraqi war atrocities reflect badly upon their religion but American war atrocies only reflect badly upon one tiny section of our military? Might I point out that most Christians insist this is a Christian nation?

Now, while I don't condone it, I can understand why there is terrorism in a country like Iraq-- we are far superior to them militarily so they cannot fight back honorably (with precision missiles and apache helicopters firing at people from a distance). However, what I cannot understand is why America, which has the military strength to take on extremists in an “honorable” way, resorts to terrorism (such as the recent torture and killings of Iraqi prisoners).

Christianity certainly is a religion of peace today as it always should have been.

LOL. Your religion is still filled with intolerance, not only toward other religions and ways of life, but often toward other Christians who just happen to follow a slightly different interpretation of the Bible than you. Until you banish intolerance, you cannot truly call yourself a religion of peace.

And we certainly do not hate muslims in fact I pray that he will bless you with peace.

I’m not Muslim. And I pray your God will bless you with peace as well.

 

[chamberlain]

Why would you be dead if Christians ran the place? Are you a witch?
Hitlers propaganda was aimed at germans, in his time, most germans were Christian. His perverted propaganda was aimed at making Christian germans hate Jews. And even still many Christian germans helped Jews. Im not sure what you are getting at.
It is not my place to judge but if you use the teachings of the bible as an indicator the people who killed Matthew Shepard were Christians in name only. This was a hate crime and because of that, however committed this crime (I hope they are brought to justice) committed it because they were human not because they were Christian. If they go to church they aren't listening to a word thats said about being loving.
Eric Rudolph (as you said) was an "anti-abortion extremist". Same as my last point. Any violence is against what Christs teaching. As you said he should have "turned the other cheek", that would have been the Christian thing to do.
Although these are all disgusting acts by people who claim to be Christian they are isolated events. They point I was making is that you don't here every second day on the news of another Christian suicide bombing or beheading.

"No, but I have seen graphic pictures of Iraqi prisoners standing on boxes with their heads covered and wires attached to their hands and various other abuses to Iraqi POWs."

Of course you have its all over the news. Whats your point these were soldiers doing this. Ask them if they are Christian. If they are then this point is relevant to the context you are using it in. It doesn't actually answer the point you have used it in reference to in my last post. Although I dont condone these acts they are a bit diferent. I would live through being naked and standing on a box, however if someone cut of my head...

"I can understand why there is terrorism in a country like Iraq-- we are far superior to them militarily so they cannot fight back honorably"

In my opinion there is no honor in suicide bombing, smart bombing or abortion clinic bombing or any form of violence for that matter. And i don't think that this is the reason for terrorism at all.
These attacks were aimed at the western way of life. Take 9/11 for example the focus of this attack was the world trade centre a centre for western business were thousands of civilians in the middle of NY were bound to be killed. Now I know what your thinking, they did attack the pentagon as well but there was noone in it and it wasn't the focus of there attack and they new that it wouldn't cost as many lives or cause as much damage.
Or closer to my heart as an Australian, take the Bali bombings. In no way, shape or form was this an attack on military targets. It was an attack on Australian tourists. Not a millitary threat to Islam.
I will humbley admit that that there is intolerence in the Christian church. We are a church of sinning people who by the grace of God are trying to get right. My point in all of this is that the teachings of Jesus do not condone intolerance or violence in any way. And I am not a Christian myself because I look at the other Christians and see perfection. In fact we Christians are often the worst witnesses for Jesus because we go our own away and dont do what we are supposed to in doing, we fall short of God expectations for us. But being Christian isnt about being perfect thank goodness.
In closing don't judge the message because we Christians aren't always the best messengers in the way we live.
write me back runt, ok?

God bless ya!

Chamberlain

 

[Ardhanariswar]

no religion should ever rule a country. because of intolerance! there are very few religions that are tolerant (except for the fundamentalist sects) like hinduism. but as humans, its hard to be tolerant when you fervently believe in a faith.

**********

the church has become increasingly corrupt. and many things i cannot comprehend, like why no priest marriage, or why no women priests.
i know the history of how they split form eastern ortho and in the early church they had female decons, but today, why is it the way it is?

it has denounced pagan beliefs and called them evil. when in truth pagan beliefs have no wrong in them. all it is is nature. God's gift to the world. nature is beautiful. and wiccanism celebrates it. christianity looks at hindu temple walls and says *ewww, yuck, evil vile, lust!* when all hinduism does is celebrate human sexuality, God's gift.

well those are my views...

 

[Runt]

Why would you be dead if Christians ran the place? Are you a witch?

More or less. I was literally a witch a few years ago. Now, I'm just an odd sort of Taoist. Still far from being Christian. I doubt Salem would have seen the difference between Wicca and Taoism 300 years ago…

Hitlers... perverted propaganda was aimed at making Christian germans hate Jews...the people who killed Matthew Shepard were Christians in name only...Eric Rudolph (as you said) was an "anti-abortion extremist"...Any violence is against what Christs teaching.

This is the problem I am trying to illustrate. Even if a religion teaches that violence is wrong, violence done in its name nevertheless ends up reflecting badly upon the religion as a whole, even if extremists representing only a small percentage of the religious population committed that violence. This is a problem we see in all religions. Christianity gets branded as a violent religion by outsiders because a miniscule percentage of its population goes against Christian doctrine and commits atrocities. Islam gets branded as a violent religion by outsiders because small isolated groups of extremists have hijacked Islam and used it for their own ends. Just as you assert that we cannot look at Christianity’s violent past and more recent isolated incidents as indication that Christianity as a whole is violent, so we also cannot condemn Islam as a violent religion for the same reason.

I was making is that you don't here every second day on the news of another Christian suicide bombing or beheading.

And yet, as your comment here clearly shows, it is human nature to believe that because a small group is committing atrocities in the name of a religion, that religion itself is at fault for the atrocities.

Whats your point these were soldiers doing this. Ask them if they are Christian. If they are then this point is relevant to the context you are using it in. It doesn't actually answer the point you have used it in reference to in my last post.

You know that because the majority of the American population is Christian the soldiers who committed those atrocities were probably Christian. However, this was not the point I was making. I was showing you that you cannot use the actions of a small group of individuals as evidence that an entire religion—or in America's case, an entire country—is corrupt or extremely violent.

The fact of the matter is this: An atrocity is going to get a lot of publicity. The atrocities committed by Islamic extremists are DESIGNED to get a lot of publicity—they are sending a message to the world. You have get past human nature—which is to blame the atrocity on the religion rather than the individuals committing the atrocity—and recognize that the atrocity was committed by a small group of people representing a perverted form of the religion. Islam is the biggest religion in the world right now. Compared to its total population the number of people in support of terrorism is miniscule. Terrorists are bold and therefore dangerous, but they are not a large population.

These attacks were aimed at the western way of life.

Yes, the terrorist attacks were aimed at the Western way of life. However, that is a horribly one-dimensional analysis that leads one to believe the issue is far simpler than it is in truth. If you ask yourself “Why are militant Islamists so against the Western way of life?”, you will see that the issue is far more complex than you previously thought.

Militant Islamists are against the Western way of life for two basic reasons: because they believe that the Western way of life is immoral, and they believe that it is a threat to Muslims and their way of life.

How have we threatened them? They believe that Islam as a whole is under attack by the West, specifically the United States, and that they have been under attack for quite some time.

Osama Bin Laden wrote in his Letter To America, “Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple: because you attacked us and continue to attack us… You attacked us in Palestine… You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon. You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of your international influence and military threats… Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our holy places… It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression.” http://www.thepanamanews.com/pn/v_08/issue_23/opinion_02.html

Furthermore, although 9-11 may have been aimed specifically at the Western way of life, the attacks that have occurred during our occupation of Iraq have a different purpose—to win a war. The West has big guns, precision missiles, helicopters, and highly trained militaries with which to fight. The extremists don’t have any of these things at their disposal, so they use what they do have—terrorism—to fight back. And to tell you the truth, as much as I hate terrorism, I have to admit that it is a highly effective strategy. Terrorism is a vague enemy—it submits to no central authority but rather is composed of several independently operating units. As such, it is difficult to track—it is estimated that there are about 1000 militant Islamic terrorist cells in the United States alone that could attack at any time. Terrorism is always on the offense and never on the defense. Unless the United States can identify a clear target, such as a terrorist state like Iraq, it is difficult for us to launch an attack that will have any effect. Terrorism has time on its side—unlike a military, terrorists can attack anywhere at any time without its target knowing the attack is coming. All they have to do is wait for an opportunity. Terrorism is not expected to play by the normal rules of honorable warfare and therefore it has a whole set of aggressive options not available to a military which can prove as effective in hurting the enemy as a military strike. It costs far less to launch a terrorist attack than it does to clean up after one and mobilize an army in retaliation. 9-11 cost Osama Bin Laden millions of dollars to launch that attack. It cost the U.S. billions to recover and launch the War Against Terrorism.

Or closer to my heart as an Australian, take the Bali bombings. In no way, shape or form was this an attack on military targets. It was an attack on Australian tourists. Not a military threat to Islam.

While I agree that attacks on civilians are wrong, I have to explain how Islamist extremists justify these actions. They hold that because citizens of a democratic society have the power to support or oppose the policies of our governments, we therefore share responsibility for the results of these policies. Quoting Osama Bin Laden’s “Letter To America” once again, “You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake: This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.”

 

[chamberlain]

"This is the problem I am trying to illustrate. Even if a religion teaches that violence is wrong, violence done in its name nevertheless ends up reflecting badly upon the religion as a whole, even if extremists representing only a small percentage of the religious population committed that violence. This is a problem we see in all religions. Christianity gets branded as a violent religion by outsiders because a miniscule percentage of its population goes against Christian doctrine and commits atrocities. Islam gets branded as a violent religion by outsiders because small isolated groups of extremists have hijacked Islam and used it for their own ends. Just as you assert that we cannot look at Christianity’s violent past and more recent isolated incidents as indication that Christianity as a whole is violent, so we also cannot condemn Islam as a violent religion for the same reason. "
I agree with what you are saying here!
:talk: :hi:
But you have to admit that jihad is one of the pillars of Islam.
Thus this facet of their religion condones and promotes retribution and revenge in the name of allah. Just something to think about!

ps I agree with MOST of what you are saying and you are very insightful. And I respect you a lot because you aren't just arguing with me when my opinions differ to yours.
Thanks :lol:

Chamberlain