Why do Christians worship Mary?

[mr.guy]

I thought I would paint Atheism with strokes as broad as the ones wanderer painted Christianity with

Then you'd like to recant your statement, Fgs?

 

[MaddLlama]

I thought I would paint Atheism with strokes as broad as the ones wanderer painted Christianity with

For the record, it doesn't really help your argument or make you look any better. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I really hate to play the devil's advocate here, but according to Islamic doctrine and the way we think I would bother to ask the same question as wanderer asked. To go to dead saints or dead pious people, and ask anything of them at all including to pray for us is considered worship. There is a fine line in loving someone, honoring someone, and involving oneself in forms of worship to them. We as muslims love Muhammad, have a great respect for him for who he was, but would never in a million years ask anything of him at this point. Specifically since he's no longer with us. If he were alive and let's say I asked him to make dua for me and my family that is perfectly fine. Since he is dead, it crosses a very thin line over into worship. Being dead makes the difference here. One may ask why. From the islamic point of view, to ask a dead person to intercede for you or pray to them, or ask them of anything, one assumes a couple of things. The first thing one must assume is that they can hear you. The second thing one must assume is that they have the power to apporach God as an intercessor of any kind. It also begs the question as to why one cannot simply ask God themselves for what they want.

I do understand what the christians are saying about just honoring a person is not worshipping them. I also understand that a figure being tied into a religion does not a deity make. Muhammad's name is tied into the very kalima (statement) that it takes to become muslim. A muslim not only says that there is nothing worthy of worship besides Allah, but also says that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. However, the fisrt part negates worship of the second. As prominately as Muhammad figures in Islam is it expressely forbidden in no uncertain terms to worship, seek help from, seek favors of, ask prays from, make a statue of (as making a statue of him would inevitably lead some people to errantly worship the statue), or any other way seek succour or anything from him or any other thing in existance.

Since it was brought up about how religions define worship is different than what websters dictionary defines it, I am using the definition of worship from a religious POV. I would reckon that it is not only Islam that views the asking of spiritual favors from people, saints, etc, as a form of worship. In short IMHO, what some catholics admit to doing as far as veneration of Mary would be classified as a worship to us.

Note: Muslims accept the virgin birth of Jesus as well as the christians do. Maryam is a special woman in history, but never to have any prayers directed at her. And for the naysayers about virgin births, it is worth a mention that whip-tailed lizards have virgin births all the time. As far as what I have read about them, there is no such thing as a male whip-tailed lizard. They are all female and birth children through a process called parthenogenesis. It is not far fetched for people of faith to believe that if God is all powerful, then can He not give this ability to one human in the history of mankind as a show of power? Atheists do not believe so, but people of faith have no problem with this.

Now before anybody jumps mad, I'm not trying to redifine anyone's faith or tell them what they beleive. However, this is an religious debate forum and I see no reason why christianity cannot be questioned.

 

[Quiddity]

I really hate to play the devil's advocate here, but according to Islamic doctrine and the way we think I would bother to ask the same question as wanderer asked. To go to dead saints or dead pious people, and ask anything of them at all including to pray for us is considered worship. There is a fine line in loving someone, honoring someone, and involving oneself in forms of worship to them. We as muslims love Muhammad, have a great respect for him for who he was, but would never in a million years ask anything of him at this point. Specifically since he's no longer with us. If he were alive and let's say I asked him to make dua for me and my family that is perfectly fine. Since he is dead, it crosses a very thin line over into worship. Being dead makes the difference here. One may ask why. From the islamic point of view, to ask a dead person to intercede for you or pray to them, or ask them of anything, one assumes a couple of things. The first thing one must assume is that they can hear you. The second thing one must assume is that they have the power to apporach God as an intercessor of any kind. It also begs the question as to why one cannot simply ask God themselves for what they want.

I do understand what the christians are saying about just honoring a person is not worshipping them. I also understand that a figure being tied into a religion does not a deity make. Muhammad's name is tied into the very kalima (statement) that it takes to become muslim. A muslim not only says that there is nothing worthy of worship besides Allah, but also says that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. However, the fisrt part negates worship of the second. As prominately as Muhammad figures in Islam is it expressely forbidden in no uncertain terms to worship, seek help from, seek favors of, ask prays from, make a statue of (as making a statue of him would inevitably lead some people to errantly worship the statue), or any other way seek succour or anything from him or any other thing in existance.

Since it was brought up about how religions define worship is different than what websters dictionary defines it, I am using the definition of worship from a religious POV. I would reckon that it is not only Islam that views the asking of spiritual favors from people, saints, etc, as a form of worship. In short IMHO, what some catholics admit to doing as far as veneration of Mary would be classified as a worship to us.

Note: Muslims accept the virgin birth of Jesus as well as the christians do. Maryam is a special woman in history, but never to have any prayers directed at her. And for the naysayers about virgin births, it is worth a mention that whip-tailed lizards have virgin births all the time. As far as what I have read about them, there is no such thing as a male whip-tailed lizard. They are all female and birth children through a process called parthenogenesis. It is not far fetched for people of faith to believe that if God is all powerful, then can He not give this ability to one human in the history of mankind as a show of power? Atheists do not believe so, but people of faith have no problem with this.

Now before anybody jumps mad, I'm not trying to redifine anyone's faith or tell them what they beleive. However, this is an religious debate forum and I see no reason why christianity cannot be questioned.

Is that what you are doing? Questioning?

I hope I have misunderstood you but it seems that you have already concluded that we worship Mary irregardless of what we say. So what is there to talk about?

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Is that what you are doing? Questioning?

I hope I have misunderstood you but it seems that you have already concluded that we worship Mary irregardless of what we say. So what is there to talk about?

Somewhere in this thread someone stated that they seek some form of intercession from Mary. According to my logic and beliefs, this amounts to worship. That however, is purely from an Islamic point of view, and I stated only to state my side and opinion of the issue. The thing is, it doesn't really matter what I think as it doesn't really apply here except to state my position. What I want to know is that what do catholics view as the difference between what they do with Mary and what they do with Jesus/God? Or what is it that makes it not worship according to them? The answer may not sway my opinion and doesn't have to. I simply am curious about the answer that will be given.

It seems as though there is a bit of hostility that the question was even posed at all. I see no reason for this. I don't feel that I was offending anyone when I re-asked the question posed in the OP.

 

[rhb100]

When you say

No,that would be a non-Christian. An Athiest is one who rejects belief in any god, not just the Biblical One.

, this indicates you apparently don't even understand that Jews and Muslims also worship the God of the Bible.

When I ask, What do you mean by the religion of Atheism, you respond with the silly comment,

Pretty much everyone has faith, even if they don't realize it or refuse to admit it..

This certainly does not provide an explanation of what you mean by the religion of atheism. Your failure to do so indicates you probably don't know what you are talking about. You talk about faith but you fail to provide a definition. When we talk about faith we should always remember, "Faith is believing what you know ain't so" as pointed out by Samuel Langhorne Clemens.

I thought I might be able to get an intelligent answer as to what you mean by the religion of atheism but all I see is evasion and silly answers. I have concluded that it is a waste of time to get any information of value from you.

 

[James the Persian]

Somewhere in this thread someone stated that they seek some form of intercession from Mary. According to my logic and beliefs, this amounts to worship. That however, is purely from an Islamic point of view, and I stated only to state my side and opinion of the issue. The thing is, it doesn't really matter what I think as it doesn't really apply here except to state my position. What I want to know is that what do catholics view as the difference between what they do with Mary and what they do with Jesus/God? Or what is it that makes it not worship according to them? The answer may not sway my opinion and doesn't have to. I simply am curious about the answer that will be given.

It seems as though there is a bit of hostility that the question was even posed at all. I see no reason for this. I don't feel that I was offending anyone when I re-asked the question posed in the OP.

Do Muslims ask other Muslims to pray for them? I honestly don't know, but I can ask one of the guys in the office if necessary. Even if you don't, would you consider asking someone else to pray for you to be worshipping them? If you answer yes to that question then you have a point (though a really odd definition of worship), otherwise you do not, because all asking for the intercession of a saint means is asking for that saint to pray to God for you. The only difference is that one of the people you might ask is a live her on earth and the other is not. However, neither we nor the RCs consider those who have passed on to be dead or unconscious (some post-Reformation groups do) but rather to be alive in God and so really there is very little difference at all. Hopefully you will understand now what is meant by praying to and the intercession of the saints - neither is what you appear to have assumed.

James

 

[ApologeticsCatholic]

The best way ill explain faith how it works , sort of......

1. Have you Ever seen 1,000,000,000 dollars cash, In front of you?
No?
Well it exists, I never seen it but i know its there.

2. Ever hear a story from a friend, Maybe sounds A Little farfetched, But you believe him/her, and it becomes a story you tell and belive from that point on?
Yes?
Thats how faith works.

It has become so easy to have faith in Lots of things, Sports teams, friends, Politics, Economy, But when it comes to A virgin With child, Or a supreme entity, its hard to have the same faith?

I Believe Mary Was with child and was a virgin, Not because i have seen it , But i have faith in that face, its a crucial role in the christian faith.

You can get ready to watch your Favorite sport team play after losing Every Game and have "faith" they will win, without ever seeing them win a game.

Its the same concept, you dont always have to see Something to belive it, Instead us as humans pick and choose wat to believe, because we all have Blind faith, Maybe not religious but we all have faith in Something or someone, again we pick and choose,

You dont need to have seen the Angel Come to see mary to believe the angel did, Just like you dont need to see your favorite sports team finally win a game to have faith they will win. Most just choose not to believe.

You say you need a cause or effect or need to see it, and thats most likely not the case, because in everyday life we all have faith in something most things we cant see or touch, and no way of knowing if it happened or will,

and that my friend is faith

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Do Muslims ask other Muslims to pray for them?

Yes we do.

I honestly don't know, but I can ask one of the guys in the office if necessary. Even if you don't, would you consider asking someone else to pray for you to be worshipping them?

If they are alive then I do not consider it an act of worship. If they are dead, it takes on another dimension. In order for me to ask a dead saint to pray for me, I must assume they can hear me, and take up my request. The real issue for a muslim in this area is that harm and benefit ultimately come from Allah. The saint cannot bring benefit to me in any way whatsoever, so I should not take my needs before the saint, which cannot do anything for me. Rather I should take my needs before Allah, because it is He whom I worship and He whom I seek aid and help from, and it is only Allah that bring a harm to me or a benefit to me. There is a line that we draw for asking prayers to be made for us. Like if I am having a really tough time, I might in passing ask a friend of mine to make dua for me. That is normal and I agree that it is not a form of worship. I might be taking it to another level though if every time I have a problem I go to the friend. It seemed as though last time I asked that friend to make dua for me it got answered. So because of this I began to believe that somehow the connection that the friend has with Allah is better then mine in some way. Now at this point an important and dangerous thing happens. My yaqeen (certainty of faith) is placed in the dua of the friend, rather than on Allah. Allah answered the dua because it was Allah's will to answer it, not because of any special quality of my friend. If I had made the dua myself, Allah would have answered it if it was His will to do so. It is difficult to truly express this difference because it is extremely subtle, but important to muslims. Basically I am trying to say that it is putting your trust in the power of the saint, rather than putting one's full trust only in the power of Allah.

After all that is said, it is a muslim belief that is not applicable to the question raised which was directed at the christians.

However, neither we nor the RCs consider those who have passed on to be dead or unconscious (some post-Reformation groups do) but rather to be alive in God and so really there is very little difference at all.

Muslims also beleive that people still have a form of consciousness after death. I don't argue with that point. Having consciousness is irrelevant to me because even with it, I do not believe they have the ability to either answer a prayer, or a request for one.

Hopefully you will understand now what is meant by praying to and the intercession of the saints - neither is what you appear to have assumed.

I understand it, I just don't agree with it. I guess my next question would be why some christians feel that the intercession of saints is necessary for a prayer to reach God? Are your prayers not good enough or potent enough to get God's attention?

 

[James the Persian]

I understand it, I just don't agree with it. I guess my next question would be why some christians feel that the intercession of saints is necessary for a prayer to reach God? Are your prayers not good enough or potent enough to get God's attention?

I don't believe that there are any Christians that believe the intercessions of the saints are necessary. We just believe that they are helpful, just as we believe that the prayers of other Christians here on earth are helpful. You say you understand, but you actually appear not to as you seem to assume that we believe the saints have some power apart from, or some special influence on, God. This is not the case, we just draw far less of a distinction between those here on earth and those who have pased on than many religions do. The only things we do believe is that those who are with God have been shown to be righteous, that through God's grace they can hear us, and that they pray for those of us left here on earth. And as Scripture says, the 'prayer of a righteous man avails much'.

James

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

When you say , this indicates you apparently don't even understand that Jews and Muslims also worship the God of the Bible.

No, they really don't. Muslims believe that the Bible has been corrupted, and only agree with the Bible when it happens to coincide with their actual holy book, the Quran. Jews only accept the Old Testament.

When I ask, What do you mean by the religion of Atheism, you respond with the silly comment,
This certainly does not provide an explanation of what you mean by the religion of atheism. Your failure to do so indicates you probably don't know what you are talking about. You talk about faith but you fail to provide a definition.

Well, if Atheists say there is no God, they have faith in that; therefore, that is their religion. It frames their entire outlook and worldview and lifestyle, just as belief in God does to theists.

When we talk about faith we should always remember, "Faith is believing what you know ain't so" as pointed out by Samuel Langhorne Clemens.

Fortunately, neither you nor Mr. Clemens are in charge of what words actually mean. Think before you go crowning yourself Word Definition Police, please.

I thought I might be able to get an intelligent answer as to what you mean by the religion of atheism but all I see is evasion and silly answers. I have concluded that it is a waste of time to get any information of value from you.

Well I am so sorry, O God of Infinite Wisdom and Knowledge, that I ever deigned to even speak in your presence, since you are so obviously superior to me intellectually. In the future I will never even try to persuade you to speak with a lower lifeform such as myself.

 

[MaddLlama]

Well, if Atheists say there is no God, they have faith in that; therefore, that is their religion. It frames their entire outlook and worldview and lifestyle, just as belief in God does to theists.

Having faith in something isn't the same thing as being a part of a religion. A religion is based on more than just belief in one thing, it is based on tradition and practice. Religion implies organization and structure, and there is no such thing for atheists.

 

[Quiddity]

*WAVES HANDS*
CAN WE TRY TO STAY ON TOPIC PLEASE.
​

 

[rhb100]

I disagree. Faith is believing in something that hasn't been proven to be true or not true. To say that all people who believe in God know he isn't real is, well, ludicrous.

It is true that there are cases in which faith is believing what has been proved not true. For example it has been pointed out at Dennis McKinsey's Biblical Errancy, http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/ , that the Bible is self contradictory. It therefore follows that the Bible is false without giving any consideration to the scientific evidence contradicting the Bible (evolution, erc.). But truly religious Christians say they have faith that the Bible is absolute truth. Since the contradictions in the Bible are pretty much self evident, these truly religious Christians are believing what they know ain't so. Therefore I think Mark Twain (Samuel Langhorne Clemens) hit the nail on the head when he said "Faith is believing what you know ain't so".

 

[MaddLlama]

Ooo, some website quotes the Bible and says "these dont make sense together", therefore the Bible has been 100% proven to be untrue.

Riiight.

It's a matter of opinion and belief. Besides, it doesn't even really address what I said. The quote you're giving says that faith is believing something you know isn't true. Well, people who put faith in the Bible or something else know it to be true, in thier experience. Believing in God when some people disagree is not the same thing as believing that humans are reptiles.

 

[logician]

" Religion implies organization and structure, and there is no such thing for atheists."

Pure rubbish, an atheist can lead a very organized and structured life based upon any number of philosophies.

 

[logician]

" As prominately as Muhammad figures in Islam is it expressely forbidden in no uncertain terms to worship, seek help from, seek favors of, ask prays from, make a statue of (as making a statue of him would inevitably lead some people to errantly worship the statue), or any other way seek succour or anything from him or any other thing in existance.
"

Somehow Catholics cannot reach this obvious conclusion, that what they are doing are far as Mary is concerned is worship. CALLING it something else doesn't MAKE it something else.

 

[Random]

Because she's cool.

 

[logician]

For Mary or any "saint" to act as an "intercessor" in prayer would require "god-like" abilites, i.e. translating millions of prayers to god back and forth simultaneously. Unless you elevate Mary to god status, it simply doesn't make sense.

 

[rhb100]

Ooo, some website quotes the Bible and says "these dont make sense together", therefore the Bible has been 100% proven to be untrue.

Riiight.

It's a matter of opinion and belief. Besides, it doesn't even really address what I said. The quote you're giving says that faith is believing something you know isn't true. Well, people who put faith in the Bible or something else know it to be true, in thier experience. Believing in God when some people disagree is not the same thing as believing that humans are reptiles.

It doesn't made any difference what a website says, it is what the Bible says. In the first version of animal creation in Genesis, it says that man was the last of the animals to be created. In the second version of animal creation in Genesis, it says that man was the first of the animals to be created. Thus the Bible is self contradictory and therefore false. It doesn't make any difference what people put their faith in or what experiences they have had. The only thing that matters is the specific words used in the Bible. There are many more examples of self contradiction in the Bible. See the book, "The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy" by Dennis McKinsey or the website Biblical errancy, http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/ , for more information. Mark Twain was essentially correct when he said, "Faith is believing what you know ain't so".