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Why do Christians worship Mary?

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rhb100

Member
FerventGodSeeker said:
Well I am so sorry, O God of Infinite Wisdom and Knowledge, that I ever deigned to even speak in your presence, since you are so obviously superior to me intellectually. In the future I will never even try to persuade you to speak with a lower lifeform such as myself. :rolleyes:

I admire your humility. Blessed are the meek
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Care to find me any church that teaches that the intercession of saints is necessary? I'll tell you three right now that don't just to give you a head start, the Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church and the Oriental Orthodox Church. That should have narrowed down your search considerably seeing as I've just taken care of over 1.4 billion Christians for you. Or are you considering that necessary and helpful are synonyms? Because if you are you need a new dictionary.

And as for your quip about Mary further down, she need have no power of her own whatsoever. God is omnipotent for Christians remember? Through His grace, then, it would perfectly possible for the saints to hear our prayers. A doctrine (clearly one that you'll be ignorant of seeing as you seem to have less understanding of Christianity than my 4 year old, but I'll raise it nonetheless) that covers exactly this is theosis. You should add that to your list of research. On the same subject, it's clear that you have no idea what intercession is. We don't consider that the saints are passing on our prayers to God, but simply praying with us to God. They aren't the divine postal service.

Please stop pontificating about subjects on which you appear wholly ignorant.

James
 

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
rhb100 said:
It doesn't made any difference what a website says, it is what the Bible says. In the first version of animal creation in Genesis, it says that man was the last of the animals to be created. In the second version of animal creation in Genesis, it says that man was the first of the animals to be created. Thus the Bible is self contradictory and therefore false. It doesn't make any difference what people put their faith in or what experiences they have had. The only thing that matters is the specific words used in the Bible. There are many more examples of self contradiction in the Bible. See the book, "The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy" by Dennis McKinsey or the website Biblical errancy, http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/ , for more information. Mark Twain was essentially correct when he said, "Faith is believing what you know ain't so".

It's 100% apparent to me that you didn't understand my post, and you also don't understand the difference between "know" and "believe".
You, or any other atheist for that matter, have provided about as much information to prove to Christians that the Bible is worthless as any Christian could prove to you that God exists. If you want to stand by your quote and assume that every Christian reads the Bible and thinks "Oh, well I know this is all wrong and stupid, but I'm going to believe it anyway", then that gives any theist full right to know that you really do believe in God, but you're just mad at him. If I assumed this was the position of all atheists, then it would also rationally explain why many of them feel such a great need to waste thier time trying to disprove and put down religion.
I don't really care about contradictions in the Bible. If you want to talk about that, you can take yourself over to a new thread and annoy the Christians. My problem is with your use of the word "know". Clearly, you don't understand what it means.
 

mr.guy

crapsack
wnaderer said:
For Mary or any "saint" to act as an "intercessor" in prayer would require "god-like" abilites, i.e. translating millions of prayers to god back and forth simultaneously. Unless you elevate Mary to god status, it simply doesn't make sense.
Not if she ignores most of the incoming prayers. Like, duh.
 

SB Habakuk

Active Member
All your Anti-Christian post is reflective of world wide thought- that goes towards the destruction of Christendom- This you will never witness-

For You do not even know those who are Christians- you fools who think by capitulating the West they will bring the downfall of Christianity-

It is written
The kingdom of heaven is within you and without you

You think you can destroy CHristianity-
I will give you what ear has not heard and what angel has not known-
Christ is manifest
For he already came - and who recognized him? which one of them said- this is the messiah- woeful shall be your judgements al l who burn in the lust of their own selfish wisdoms - their man-made religious whimsies and half truths-all is death
as Christ said
He came and he found NONE thirsty for wisdom-
 

logician

Well-Known Member
JamesThePersian said:
. On the same subject, it's clear that you have no idea what intercession is. We don't consider that the saints are passing on our prayers to God, but simply praying with us to God. They aren't the divine postal service.

Please stop pontificating about subjects on which you appear wholly ignorant.

James

Here we go again, it's clear you have no idea what "intercessor" means". From the dictionary:

"in·ter·ces·sion
–noun 1.a prayer to God on behalf of another.
"

Praying on "behalf" of another is NOT the same as praying "WITH" another, I think you're making it up as you go. It's clear that Mary is considered as a go-between, and not a "buddy".
 

rhb100

Member
MaddLlama said:
It's 100% apparent to me that you didn't understand my post, and you also don't understand the difference between "know" and "believe".
I fully recognize that I may not have used the proper words to make myself perfectly clear and I recognize the value of your many wonderful posts. I greatly appreciate your critique of my post. It is through criticism that we have the opportunity to learn and I greatly appreciate your providing me with it. However, I was trying to make a point that was dependent only on the Bible despite the great value of your many posts.

MaddLlama said:
You, or any other atheist for that matter, have provided about as much information to prove to Christians that the Bible is worthless as any Christian could prove to you that God exists.
Again I recognize that I may not have used the proper words to make myself perfectly clear. I in fact believe that the Bible has much usefull information. I do believe that the Bible is fallible. I believe for this reason the Bible should be read with skepticism.
MaddLlama said:
If you want to stand by your quote and assume that every Christian reads the Bible and thinks "Oh, well I know this is all wrong and stupid, but I'm going to believe it anyway"
I confess that there are probably Christians who truly believe that what they have been taught the Bible says is true. I hope you will think about reconsidering the importance of contradictions in the Bible. If more people knew about the contradictions in the Bible, I think it would lead to a more peaceful world and a more capitalistic and free society.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
Why do non-Christians keep insisting that Christians worship Mary? Is it virgin-envy?

You're generalizing here, I'm only saying that SOME Christians appear to worship Mary, certainly few if any of those of protestant faiths worship Mary.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
FerventGodSeeker said:
No, they really don't. Muslims believe that the Bible has been corrupted, and only agree with the Bible when it happens to coincide with their actual holy book, the Quran. Jews only accept the Old Testament.

Not to take this off track, FGS, but neither of those objections apply to Baha'is. We don't believe the Bible is corrupted, and we accept the Jewish testaments as well as the Gospel.
 
@ wanderer085

The topic has primarally strayed slightly off topic so the big question is how do you suppose all living things came into existance, id put creation into a more contemporary scenerio

about 8 years ago me and a friend began working on a artificial life program, the program was desinged by is creators and consisted of single cell organisms that had the programming they need or required to adapt or evolve, now even though they where a form of life, they didnt just apear out of nothing, they where created, they had a creator, and everything that is created comes from an original source, you can back track any creation to an origin, thats just life in general, and for all who belive in a science form and science can hypothosise all these theries then heres a science FACT, humans are madeup of living energy we are mass Biological Mass, and biomass cannot be created without energy input. where did this energy come from? All science has done is given substantiating evidence to a creator.

and witht his scientific proof if you will, brings us back to the creators promise, the book Mathew

NASB = "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."

Virgin Mary is not God, and the Catholic Church has never ever adored her, only venerates her, honors her, mainly as the Mother of Jesus, thus fulfilling the prophecy about mary as the virgin who will bare a child in Lk.1:48 and Psalm 45

Psalm 45:
It is the Psalm of the King and the Queen:
The first 8 verses to the King, Jesus, the most excellent of men... God!... whose throne is for ever and ever.
From verse 9 is to the Queen... and the last verse, 17, is similar to the one applied by Virgin Mary to herself in Luke 1:48, I will perpetuate your memory through all generations; therefore the nations will praise you for ever and ever.
But in the Bible all prophecies applied to Mary apply also to the Church, and vice versa... in Gen.1:15, in Revelation 12:1-5... so, the Queen is Mary, and it is the Church of Christ!.
It is like a riddle: The Bride of the King is also the Daughter of the King, and the Mother of the King... it is Virgin Mary!, the Mother of Jesus, the Spouse of the Spirit, the Daughter of the Father... and it is the Church!: The bride of Jesus, the mother of Jesus who came from the People of God, and the daughter of Jesus who founded his Church!.
This prophecy of verse 17, has been fulfilled with superabundance in Virgin Mary, From now on all generations will call me blessed (Lk.1:48):
Virgin Mary has been the woman to whom more poems and songs have been dedicated in the last 2000 years... To whom more paintings, statues, chapels, cathedrals and basilicas have been dedicated, to call her blessed with all kind of arts by the best artists of the five continents...
... And in every second, of these two thousand years, somebody in the world has been repeating the words of Luke 1:42, to bless the Mother and Her Son, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus"... Alleluia, praised is the Lord!
Psalm 45:
1 My heart is stirred by a noble theme as I recite my verses for the king; my tongue is the pen of a skillful writer.
2 You are the most excellent of men, and your lips have been anointed with grace, since God has blessed you forever.
6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

9 Daughters of kings are among your honored women;
at your right hand is the royal bride in gold of Ophir.
10 Listen, O daughter, consider and give ear: Forget your people and your father's house.
11 The king is enthralled by your beauty; honor him, for he is your lord.
13 All glorious is the princess within her chamber ; her gown is interwoven with gold.
14 In embroidered garments she is led to the king; her virgin companions follow her and are brought to you.
15 They are led in with joy and gladness; they enter the palace of the king.
16 Your sons will take the place of your fathers; you will make them princes throughout the land.
17 I will perpetuate your memory through all generations; therefore the nations will praise you for ever and ever.
 
continuing:

Psalm 131: My little great one of the Blessed Mother, My Psalm!:
It has only three short verses:
1- Of David. My heart is not proud, O Lord , my eyes are not haughty; I do not concern myself with great matters or things too wonderful for me.
Virgin Mary can say that... and children always look like their mother... it is the Psalm of Mary, and it should be our Psalm... Lord, make me like Mary, pure and humble, because only the holy and immaculate can live on earth the great adventure of Christianity and can enter Heaven... and it is the eternal plan of God for you and for me, before the creation of the world!... For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight (Ephesians 1:4).
Yes, you and I are almost nothing, like a drop of water compared with the ocean... but for God, you and are great, a most important personalities on earth, right now!.
2- But I have calmed and quieted my soul, like a child quieted at its mother's breast; like a child that is quieted is my soul.
Yes, Lord, I want to trust in you like a child quieted at its mother's breast... like Jesus in the lap of Mary!... as shown in the statue of the Virgin of the Providence, patroness of Puerto Rico.
3- O Israel, hope in the LORD from this time forth and for evermore.
This third verse is for the Church, like many Psalms do in their last verses... and I pray also the same for Israel, for the Church, to trust and live always in the lap of God, like an infant just fed by his mother.
Psalm 34:
It sounds like the Magnificat of Mary (Lk.1:48-55), the great Psalm of the humble.
If you have problems at home, at work... three virtues are very important to solve them, says St. Augustine: 1- Humility. 2- Humility. 3- Humility.
1 I will extol the Lord at all times; his praise will always be on my lips. 2 My soul will boast in the Lord ; let the afflicted hear and rejoice.
3 Glorify the Lord with me; let us exalt his name together...
6 This poor man called, and the LORD heard him; he saved him out of all his troubles. 8 Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him...10 The lions may grow weak and hungry, but those who seek the LORD lack no good thing.
22 The LORD redeems his servants; no one will be condemned who takes refuge in him.


Psalm 116: 16 O Lord , truly I am your servant; I am your servant, the son of your maidservant... Jesus is the servant (slave), the son of the humble servant Mary (slave) (Lk.1:38,48)... you and I are also the children of Mary, the humble servants, as our brother Jesus... and each child looks a bit like his mother and brother!... we have to work hard to be just like them!

and further more: in what way is the christian faith barbaric?
have you ever read the 10 commandments, the beatitutes, Jesus' teachings
semron on the mound, the greates commandment, all peacful non barbaric messages
 
do Catholics worship the saints? To worship someone is to acknowledge that the one who is worshiped is divine, is God. Sometimes we can confuse cultural gestures of reverence for gestures of worship. In doing so, we often judge not as God does, by what is in the heart, but rather by appearances (see Jn 8:15, Is 11:3).
Catholics hold saints in esteem because they are such wonderful images or mirrors of Christ. Paul several times exhorts his readers to be imitators of him: "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ" (1 Cor 11:1, also Phil 3:17, 1 Cor 4:16).
Mary is the first saint, and holds high honor today, as she did in the early Church. Over the course of history, devotion to Mary has taken many forms, and even has been confused with worship. Church teaching has consistently placed Mary in the company of the saints, however.
Devotion to the saints comes back to the theology of image: Christ is God's image, the saints are Christ's image. We honor them because we desire to imitate them. We pray to them the same as we call upon earthly friends to do a favor for us. This too, is scriptural. In Acts we read of Peter and John going up to the Temple for prayer and encountering a beggar. Peter says to him, "I have neither silver nor gold, but what I do have I give you: in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazorean, rise and walk" (Acts 3:6). Peter makes it clear that he has the power of Christ in his possession.
To be sure, it is Jesus who heals, but Peter holds the right to extend that power. The same can be said of Paul. In Acts 19:11-12 we read, "So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them." These texts are the basis of the Catholic practice of asking saints to help us, of honoring (not worshiping) the bodies and relics of saints.
 
and to say that cristian faith or more specifiacally catholic faith worsips someone is an assumption, qute easily the member of the faith determines who they worship not a spectator, and quite frankly it is apparent that christians do not worship mary as evey single christian in this perticular forum has sai she is not worshiped but venerated so to argue otherwise is pointless.

if i asked you what you did last night and you said went for a drive and i didnt see you go for a drive would it be right for me to ASSUME that you did something else, only you would know the answer to that statement, and as the listener i am obbligated to belive that all you did is go for a drive, because... well... uhm.... YOU WOULD KNOW! just as i know that i do not worship mary i worship the one true GOD and thats it.
 
MaddLlama said:
Having faith in something isn't the same thing as being a part of a religion. A religion is based on more than just belief in one thing, it is based on tradition and practice. Religion implies organization and structure, and there is no such thing for atheists.
Even if it is completely personalized, the framework of Atheism does provide the organization and structure for an Atheist's philosophy and how they live their life...just as a Theistic religion does for theists.
 
Booko said:
Not to take this off track, FGS, but neither of those objections apply to Baha'is. We don't believe the Bible is corrupted, and we accept the Jewish testaments as well as the Gospel.
He didn't bring up Baha'i, so I didn't comment on it. If you wanna go further into this I would either PM me or start a new thread, because I can see how quickly it will lead to a rabbit trail, lol.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
"about 8 years ago me and a friend began working on a artificial life program, the program was desinged by is creators and consisted of single cell organisms that had the programming they need or required to adapt or evolve, now even though they where a form of life, they didnt just apear out of nothing, they where created, they had a creator, and everything that is created comes from an original source, you can back track any creation to an origin, thats just life in general, and for all who belive in a science form and science can hypothosise all these theries then heres a science FACT, humans are madeup of living energy we are mass Biological Mass, and biomass cannot be created without energy input. where did this energy come from? All science has done is given substantiating evidence to a creator."


Pure rubbish, science in string theory keeps extending the bounds of existence to where it is now deemed most likely that the multiverse has always existed, and is infinite in scope, threfore no need for a creator, and certainly not a god that just happens to look like us.

As time goes by, religious dogma will be replaced by scientific truth, until religion is only a shell with no substance.
 
Science in string theory is nothing but theory, not even speculation, it is the possiblity that multiple universes exist beyond the 4th demension (TIme) and even if there is a multiptude of dimensions beyond the 4th then whos to say god didnt create them, again it still elaves the possiblity, no where in my faith does it say evolution, or big bang or string theory cant be possible, just god is responsable for all living things in general, if he created some blob and it became man so be it, and dont come back at me with Adam and Eve because you can see where i stnad with that section by reading another discussion about it. and science will neevr replace religion , over 86 % OF Americans are Christians, and statistaly speaking more people are converting to christianity daily, so your theory has little claim, all science is doing is arising more questions, and then suppliying a answer, there must be a creator, a single cell organism or a complex organism can not "just exist" Scientifically: It must be created, look it up, get a clue, again as many have said in many forums, research before you talk, makes it sound like you have no idea what your talking about
 

logician

Well-Known Member
ApologeticsCatholic said:
Science in string theory is nothing but theory, not even speculation, it is the possiblity that multiple universes exist beyond the 4th demension (TIme) and even if there is a multiptude of dimensions beyond the 4th then whos to say god didnt create them, again it still elaves the possiblity, no where in my faith does it say evolution, or big bang or string theory cant be possible, just god is responsable for all living things in general, if he created some blob and it became man so be it, and dont come back at me with Adam and Eve because you can see where i stnad with that section by reading another discussion about it. and science will neevr replace religion , over 86 % OF Americans are Christians, and statistaly speaking more people are converting to christianity daily, so your theory has little claim, all science is doing is arising more questions, and then suppliying a answer, there must be a creator, a single cell organism or a complex organism can not "just exist" Scientifically: It must be created, look it up, get a clue, again as many have said in many forums, research before you talk, makes it sound like you have no idea what your talking about

Speaking of not knowking what you are talking about, you haven't got a clue. If life needs a creator, then who created god, was there an infinite number of gods? The "bandwagon" theory supporting Xianity cuts no ice with me, look who America voted in as POTUS. It's no secret the fundamentalists are taking over Xianity, a sure sign it is in its death throes. When a religion gets in trouble, the fundies take over, and brainwashing becomes the main method of keeping converts in the fold.
 
Science states that nothign can be in existance without a creator, can energy or bio mass just appear? Scientifically , no! Look it up. therfore there must be a creator, can fire just exist just becasue it wants to? no someone or somethign must cause it , becasue fire is energy.


If you went down the street and saw a quarter on the sidewalk, you would think naturally, "someone dropped a quarter." If you went down the street and saw a handful of quarters on the sidewalk, you would think, "Someone had a big hole in their pockets, or dropped a roll of quarters." But if you went down the street and saw one hundred quarters on the sidewalk and they were all carefully balanced precariously on their edges, you would have to think somebody did this deliberately. The Universe as we know it, is that carefully balanced. This theory is known as the Strong Anthropic Principle. The only possibility other than this Universe was created, is there are so many universes that the equivalent of one hundred quarters falling out of someone's pocket and ALL of them ending up balanced on their edges occurred, completely by random chance. This theory is known as the, "Weak Anthropic Principle." So if you are a rational thinker here are your only two choices. Either this Universe was created , or that there are multitudes of Universes.
Now here is what I call the Modified Weak Anthropic Principle. If there are that many Universes, then the chances of a Being Like God evolving would also be equally increased by all that abundance. Ecological niches tend not to stay empty. You could, of course call such a Being something other than "God." But if it quacks like a Cosmic Duck and waddles like a Cosmic Duck and builds little universe nests that produce baby Cosmic Ducklings, why not call it a Cosmic Duck? Paul did say we grow into Christ! (Ephesians 4:15).
The Blind watchmaker may have started out blind, some universe somewhere, some when, but He/She/It evolved eyes right along with the rest of Life, and you can be quite sure sure, He/She/It will do whatever is necessary to guarantee His/Her/Its own development and continued survival, just the same as any other Life Form would. God does not play dice. He Plays poker, and He continually stacks the deck in His favor! Or, if we say He plays dice, He throws so many some are bound to land with the right numbers up."
To name just a few of the finely tuned variables that are mentioned in the books, "God the Evidence," by Patrick Glynn, John Leslie, in Universes" and from George Greenstein's "The Symbiotic Universe."
Gravity is roughly 1039 times weaker than electromagnetism. If gravity had been merely 1033 times weaker than electromagnetism, stars would be a billion times less massive and would burn a million times faster. Leslie, page 5.
The nuclear weak force is 1028 times the strength of gravity. Had the weak force been slightly weaker, all the hydrogen in the universe would have been turned to helium (making water impossible, for example). Leslie, page 24. Leslie got this information from P.C. W. Davies, 1980 (Other Worlds), pp. 176-177.
"A stronger nuclear strong force (by as little as 2 percent) would have prevented the formation of protons, --yielding a universe without atoms. Decreasing it by 5 percent would have given us a universe without stars." Leslie, page 4, quoting Hawking, Physics Bulleting: Cambridge, vol. 32, 1980, pp 9-10.
The charges of the electron and proton have been measured in the laboratory and have been found to be precisely equal and opposite. Were it not for this fact the resulting imbalance would force every object in the universe--our bodies, trees, planets, rocks, stars, to explode violently. The Universe would consist solely of a uniform and tenuous mixture not so very different from air. There would be nothing else. Greenstein's "The Symbiotic Universe."
The very nature of water--so vital to life--is something of a mystery. Unique among the molecules water is lighter in its solid form than its liquid form: Ice floats. If it did not, the oceans would freeze from the bottom up and Earth would be covered with solid ice. This property is traceable to unique properties of the hydrogen atom. Leslie, p 30, quoting Barrow and Tipler pp 143-144. CF Debtys Wilkinson, Our Universes (New York: Columbia University Press, 1991), pp 171-172.
The synthesis of carbon--the vital core of all organic molecules--on a significant scale involves what scientists view as an astonishing coincidence in the ratio of the strong force to electromagnetism. This ratio makes it possible for carbon-12 to reach an excited state of exactly 7.65 MeV at the temperature typical of the center of stars, which creates a resonance involving helium-4. beryllium-8 and carbon-12--allowing the necessary binding to take place during a tiny window of opportunity 10-17 seconds long." Wilkinson, pp 181-183. See also John Gribbon and Martin Rees, Cosmic Coincidences (New York: Bantam, 1989 pp. 243-247.
A remarkable feature of the Universe is its emptiness. Stars are extraordinarily distant from one another. However, were it not for these vast reaches of empty space, violent collisions between stars would be so frequent as to render the Universe uninhabitable. The yet more frequent near misses would detach planets from their orbits around their suns, flinging them off into interstellar space where they would quickly cool to hundreds of degrees below zero. Greenstein's, "The Symbiotic Universe.
 
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