Why do I only see this in Islam?

[Dawnofhope]

Fanaticism comes in many forms, but the religious flavors are particularly odious. The sad part here is that there is only one "big" religion that encourages fanaticism. The other sad reality is that due to the widely held revulsion for innovation in the Muslim world I simply don't see the Muslim world being able to achieve its own version of "the enlightenment".

Most historians would agree that the influence of Islamic civilisation was a major contributing factor for Western Europe emerging out of the Middle Ages through the Renaissance period. There is little doubt that much of Islam went into a long decline over many centuries. With forces of globalisation it is hard to imagine the so called Islamic world being able to live in a bubble and avoid Western influences.

As Neil de Grasse Tyson poignantly stated Muslim Nobel prize winners are few and far between and this is especially glaring when compared to the number of Jewish Noble Prize winners there are. There is something not quite right happening.

The lack of Muslim Nobel Prize winners is undeniable. However economic factors are probably more significant, rather than religion.

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-there-so-few-Muslim-Nobel-Laureates-in-sciences

 

[YmirGF]

The lack of Muslim Nobel Prize winners is undeniable. However economic factors are probably more significant, rather than religion.

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-there-so-few-Muslim-Nobel-Laureates-in-sciences

I've heard this canard before. Why, pray tell, are there no 'world class' universities anywhere in the Muslim world?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Good. Look, Muslims vary across the world. Unfortunately you have ignorance amongst them especially those who are fanatical.

Pope was talking about Islam, not individual Muslims. Please learn the difference.

In the 1500s Muslims were winning all the Nobel Science Prizes, overall they've done more for Science than Westerners. Century for Century

Only if you discount the scientific contributions by the ancient Greeks and European nations after the Dark Ages. Funny how you don't think to mention those in your time-travelling apologetics but you'll mention the Inquisition.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Pope was talking about Islam, not individual Muslims. Please learn the difference.




Only if you discount the scientific contributions by the ancient Greeks and European nations after the Dark Ages. Funny how you don't think to mention those in your time-travelling apologetics but you'll mention the Inquisition.

Muslims are synonymous with Islam and as the discussion evolved the subject of Muslims came up.

 

[islam abduallah]

I was reading that 20,000 Baha'i were killed for being heretics. "Thus Bahá'ís are seen as apostates from Islam, and, according to some Islamists, must choose between repentance and death."[3Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia
When was the last time you heard of Christians or Pagans killing a fraction of that many people for heresy? Baha'is are peaceful and they accept the Koran as the word of God. Why kill them?

I'm trying to overcome my negative views towards Islam, but all this cutting off of heads dates back to the behavior of the prophet himself who cut off enormous amounts of Jewish, Christian, and Pagan heads. People who do such things can look to the behavior of Muhammad to justify it.

Why is martyring people for heresy something you hear about in the Muslim world so often and not in the Christian or Pagan world?

I'm sure most Muslims are good people, but this bigotry and intolerance is sickening and has to stop! I don't see any Christian nations or predominately polytheistic nations killing people by the thousands for heresy. I only see this today in Islam. Why is that?

well, when you last time find that Muslims kill baha'i?

baha'i aren't recognized as a religion in most of Muslim nations, and they have no rights to consider in the law, that's the reality that we should notice and call for it to change but we don't kill them and i have a baha'i in my work place and all deal with him peaceful
the main problem that ppl don't know a lot about it and they just think they are a branch or sect of Islam

however you don't hear about Serbian killing Muslims in Kosovo and Bosnia ? when did a Muslim nation do the same against baha'i?
do you watch what's happening now against rohingya muslim in burma?

be fair enough before stoning others

there are some rights we should call for it

 

[Dawnofhope]

I've heard this canard before. Why, pray tell, are there no 'world class' universities anywhere in the Muslim world?

That's not true

Muslim universities

However there are low numbers compared to Western style universities. Part of the reason is poverty and the relatively slow response of the Muslim world to adapt to positive social change. I agree there has been resistance and suspicion to approaches to education, especially towards woman in some parts of the Muslim world.

 

[oldbadger]

I'm sure most Muslims are good people, but this bigotry and intolerance is sickening and has to stop! I don't see any Christian nations or predominately polytheistic nations killing people by the thousands for heresy. I only see this today in Islam. Why is that?

You need to study up on the Ebo Nigerian genocide, the Rwandan Genocide, and even today Muslims are being exteriminated upon the Burmese border. (Myanmar)

I am surprised about the numbers of extremist Christians who want to see Mecca 'glassed'.

And I won't forget about the 'Shock and Awe' destruction of Iraq carried out by Western countries, without UN sanction, back in the early 2000s, all based upon the lie that WMDs existed in Iraq. Now how many innocent Muslims did we kill in that?

 

[Dawnofhope]

well, when you last time find that Muslims kill baha'i?

According to Amnesty international 202 Baha'is have been killed in Iran since the Iranian revolution in 1979. Baha'is are often arrested and imprisoned for long periods of time without due process, prevented from attending university, have their property confiscated, and subject to negative publicity campaigns.

I agree that the persecution of all peoples based on religion is deplorable and unacceptable, Muslims included.

 

[oldbadger]

The Muslim Rohingya people in Burma are being slaughtered by Buddhists in the Military. Protests across Asia over Myanmar's treatment of Rohingya Muslims - CNN

Ah...... you beat me to that info.....

Also, the Bosnian Muslims were almost wiped out circa 1980's.

 

[oldbadger]

I was reading that 20,000 Baha'i were killed for being heretics. .....................................

We know that Bahais in Shia-Muslim Iran are imprisoned and with about two hundred executions in the last 40 years.
Could you enlarge upon details about the other 19,800 executions, please?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

I just read an article on BBC yesterday or the day before about a village of Muslims that was set on fire by some Buddhists. Kony is a Christian, and a terrorist and cannibal. A few years ago I read of village of Muslims that was butchered by a village of Christians. And even sometimes in America the Christians go absolutely squirrel turd nuts and attack (and sometimes kill) atheists, crippled atheists, abortion doctors, staff who work at abortion clinics, and they certainly do a great deal of damage by fighting to prevent same-sex adoption and to have discrimination as a legal right.

Can we get some sources for those hearsay incidents you mentioned?

 

[Notanumber]

Ah...... you beat me to that info.....

Also, the Bosnian Muslims were almost wiped out circa 1980's.

There are two sides to every story.

 

[Jumi]

Many of them are using Islam as an excuse to go out and murder people. Like the one who killed people in Finland, he was someone who had lived his life on the streets inflicting pain on others, lying who he was and where he was from. In the news it was said that it's common for fathers dump their kids into streets or send them to mosques because they didn't want them. So his tragedy started really with being an unwanted and unloved child. The radicals who have beliefs in forcing their religion, use people like this because they are easy to manipulate, but want to look strong in any way possible.

 

[LuisDantas]

Many of them are using Islam as an excuse to go out and murder people.

And that is hardly a surprise, seeing what is in the Qur'an and, more alarmingly, what little effort Muslims do to transcend it.

The book is practically bait for such a mindset.

Like the one who killed people in Finland, he was someone who had lived his life on the streets inflicting pain on others, lying who he was and where he was from. In the news it was said that it's common for fathers dump their kids into streets or send them to mosques because they didn't want them.

Telling, don't you think?

So his tragedy started really with being an unwanted and unloved child. The radicals who have beliefs in forcing their religion, use people like this because they are easy to manipulate, but want to look strong in any way possible.

Indeed. And, again, the Qur'an is hardly any help in avoiding such abuse.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I was reading that 20,000 Baha'i were killed for being heretics. "Thus Bahá'ís are seen as apostates from Islam, and, according to some Islamists, must choose between repentance and death."[3Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia
When was the last time you heard of Christians or Pagans killing a fraction of that many people for heresy? Baha'is are peaceful and they accept the Koran as the word of God. Why kill them?

I'm trying to overcome my negative views towards Islam, but all this cutting off of heads dates back to the behavior of the prophet himself who cut off enormous amounts of Jewish, Christian, and Pagan heads. People who do such things can look to the behavior of Muhammad to justify it.

Why is martyring people for heresy something you hear about in the Muslim world so often and not in the Christian or Pagan world?

I'm sure most Muslims are good people, but this bigotry and intolerance is sickening and has to stop! I don't see any Christian nations or predominately polytheistic nations killing people by the thousands for heresy. I only see this today in Islam. Why is that?

I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. The problem isn't Islam; it's theocracy.

There are still plenty of Christians with the desire to hurt and kill "non-believers" - as evidenced by the many Christian terrorist groups worldwide - but because they're just terrorist groups and don't have the full power of governments, they typically "only" kill hundreds at a time instead of tens of thousands.

In the West, thanks to a few hundred years' influence of secularism, there aren't many Christian theocracies left. I'm sure that plenty of those Christian terrorists would love to have the force and power of a government, but secularists have done a pretty good job of stopping them.

I mean, what Christian theocracies are left? Malta and Vatican City? Do they even have 20,000 Baha'i between them to begin with?

... which reminds me of another factor: traditionally, many nominally Christian countries have been very xenophobic (or even genocidal) towards dissenting religions, so in many cases, you don't get these big slaughters of big groups of religious minorities because there simply aren't big groups of religious minorities in the first place. A big part of why it's even possible for a slaughter of a large number of a religious minority in a country is that life there is tolerable for that minority most of the time.

Christianity today is less dangerous because it is being held in check by secularism, not because it's inherently more peaceful. And in many cases, it couldn't slaughter tens of thousands of a religious minority because the minority was killed off centuries ago and was never allowed to re-establish itself.

 

[Polymath257]

I suppose I should have included the word " today" in the title , but I made it clear in the OP that I was talking about our enlightened civilised age, not centuries ago at an ignorant time when slavery was still legal along with so many other barbaric inhumane practices

Well, the point is that the Enlightenment was a European movement and not a global one. So to ask why the rest of the world doesn't live up to 'enlightened civilized' society is showing a strong bias that ignores the actual history. The Enlightenment was, in part, a reaction to the excesses of Christians, complete with torture, beheadings, drowning in cages, and pretty much all the things we see in ISIS (for example). Perhaps the Islamic world needs to go through something similar to get to their own 'Enlightenment' that will moderate Islam in the same way the European Enlightenment moderated Christianity.

In historical terms, the Enlightenment was very recent. We haven't completely dealt with its consequences, even in the West. To expect areas of the world NOT subject to its influence to nonetheless adopt its principles is rather silly, IMHO.

 

[Polymath257]

Fanaticism comes in many forms, but the religious flavors are particularly odious. The sad part here is that there is only one "big" religion that encourages fanaticism. The other sad reality is that due to the widely held revulsion for innovation in the Muslim world I simply don't see the Muslim world being able to achieve its own version of "the enlightenment".

As Neil de Grasse Tyson poignantly stated Muslim Nobel prize winners are few and far between and this is especially glaring when compared to the number of Jewish Noble Prize winners there are. There is something not quite right happening.

It is an old clip, granted, but his points are spot on.

Agreed. The decline of Islamic civilization was, I think, a consequence of the philosophy of Al Ghazali, who closed the 'gates of ijtihad', i.e, free inquiry.

As far as I can tell, the only way for Islam to go through an Enlightenment is for the gates to be re-opened. There is precedent (prior to Al Ghazali) for this, but getting the religious authorities to go along will be a huge stretch.

In Europe, the split between Church and State as well as the split between Catholic and Protestant greatly helped the development of the Enlightenment. While there is a Sunni/Shia split, it doesn't appear to be promoting the same type of independent discussion the Protestant movement did in Europe.

 

[Polymath257]

In the 1500s Muslims were winning all the Nobel Science Prizes, overall they've done more for Science than Westerners. Century for Century

By 1500, that was no longer true. it was true in 1000AD, though.

 

[shunyadragon]

I was talking of today. The Inquisition was just as ugly, but it was in an ignorant, superstitious, barbaric, uncivilized, unenlightened age centuries ago.

I believe you are being too selective to justify a less biased understanding of persecution and religious genocide concerning other religions including Christianity, even in the history up to the 20th century Europe with the genocide of Jews following Martin Luther's instructions, the use of 'passion plays' to foment anti-Jewish sympathies, and using selective Biblical citations to accuse Jews of being 'Christ killers.'

 

[Polymath257]

Ugliness and niceness comes from our human nature. Religion can bring out the best and worst in people, just as secular ideology can.

The core message of Jesus was one of love and forgiveness. Even Muhammad taught there should be no compulsion in religion.

I partly agree. It is in our nature to be both nice and ugly.

The main issue with religion is that there is no way to tell who is 'right' and who is 'wrong'. That tends to push people to the extremes and to denigrate those that don't agree the 'revealed truth'.

Of course, not everyone does this, but the fanaticism itself tends to produce people who take charge and put the extremes into practice. Again, because there is no way to say they are wrong, it is easy for them to claim any opposition is 'against God'.

And yes, political movements have some of the same characteristics. Often, they have many of the characteristics of religion: belief by faith, and adherence to dogma in spite of evidence.