Why do Jehovah's Witnesses falsify the Bible?

[Trailblazer]

Well, here I am again. I did not forget about you, I was just super busy, but I have a little while so I will at least try to answer one of your posts. I have several of them saved in Word documents so I would not forget.

I don't understand why if he was the return of Christ and the Messiah he wouldn't understand the significance of the sacrifices. Does he mention them? And thank you VERY much for adding another book to my library Will read it.

Of course Baha’u’llah knew about the importance of sacrifices, it is me who has the problem with them because I am not well-versed in the Bible so I do not know their true significance…. Also, I am an animal lover so I cannot stand the thought of killing any animal.

Baha’u’llah wrote about sacrifices, and this is just one passage I am familiar with”

“That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Ḥusayn offered up as a sacrifice by Muḥammad, the Apostle of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 75-76

Thats cool. I would think that one always has to think of a refutation method for their belief. For Christians it is that if Christ did not die on the cross and was resurrected, then their faith is in vain.

I think the cross sacrifice was necessary and even essential to Christianity because of what Baha’u’llah wrote.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

But I do not believe that the resurrection was necessary and I do not believe it was a bodily resurrection. Rather, it was a resurrection of the Cause of Christ after three days, after He died and the disciples had become disheartened. I know the significance to Christians, that if Christ was not resurrected their bodies would not be able to resurrect when Jesus returns, but I think this a false belief. The Bible never meant that bodies would be raised from graves, resurrection means that souls would rise up from the body after it died and take on a spiritual body, in which case the body would come back to life again, in a new form.

That is a very good point. I often have that conundrum with many religions. Who would fabricate their histories? There are many reasons why someone would do what Baha'u'llah did as I have discovered from my studies of religions and cults, but whether they are true or coincidence is a whole nother story.

Here is a logical argument Baha’u’llah makes for the Messengers of God (Prophets) in general, not speaking about Himself, and He also makes a case for the next world (afterlife)...

“Wert thou to ponder in thine heart the behavior of the Prophets of God thou wouldst assuredly and readily testify that there must needs be other worlds besides this world. The majority of the truly wise and learned have, throughout the ages, as it hath been recorded by the Pen of Glory in the Tablet of Wisdom, borne witness to the truth of that which the holy Writ of God hath revealed. Even the materialists have testified in their writings to the wisdom of these divinely-appointed Messengers, and have regarded the references made by the Prophets to Paradise, to hell fire, to future reward and punishment, to have been actuated by a desire to educate and uplift the souls of men. Consider, therefore, how the generality of mankind, whatever their beliefs or theories, have recognized the excellence, and admitted the superiority, of these Prophets of God. These Gems of Detachment are acclaimed by some as the embodiments of wisdom, while others believe them to be the mouthpiece of God Himself. How could such Souls have consented to surrender themselves unto their enemies if they believed all the worlds of God to have been reduced to this earthly life? Would they have willingly suffered such afflictions and torments as no man hath ever experienced or witnessed?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 157-158

Have you read the whole of Micah 12? It starts off talking about Israel's corruption and punishment and it waiting for YHWH's mercy (verse 1-7). It is ready to be punished for its sins (the nation as a whole) until YHWH pleads Israel's case and YHWH executes justice on Israel's behalf to its enemies. (verse 8-9). The enemies then get ashamed asking "Where is YHWH your God?"and gets trampled in the streets. (verse 10). Israel will then be rebuilt, people far and wide will be called to Israel, from Assyria, the fortified cities, the fortress to the river, from sea to sea, and mountain to mountain. But when they reach Israel the land will be desolate because of the bad people who dwell in it. (verse 11-13). The verses you quote are about people from those areas going to Israel after it is rebuilt. I don't see how it relates to your prophet unless it is taken out of context. I can definitely see it being linked to the diaspora returning to Israel after it was rebuilt.

No, I have not read that but now that you mention it I will try to. Baha’u’llah wrote that the Jews were punished for a terrible sin of rejecting Jesus this turning away from the Face of God Himself. He chastised them for it.

If you are basing your view on scientific evidence then I understand your viewpoint. That makes it logical. It means you are using reality and evidence to eliminate contradictory claims. And no, sir, that would NOT be science fiction (that is evolution). It would be fantasy, a different genre involving magic. (I think science fiction has gone to my head. Although science fiction is more prophetic than any religion i know. We are making robots and hover boards now even.)I have heard that many early Christians did not believe the Genesis story was literal. It appear that that is a recent belief resulting from the rise of fundamentalists.

That is interesting. I did not know that about the early Christians, but I think they were spot on about many things that got distorted later.

The question is not whether he will raise the dead or not. The question is "Is he able to do it if he wished?" (The way you are explaining these things is funny though. "Just because God is omnipotent does not mean God is an idiot" literally made tears come out of my eyes) I am beginning to understand your thought process though.

Well, I am glad you are starting to understand my thought process when it comes to God, as not many people do, but then I mostly post to nonbelievers who keep telling me “God is omnipotent so God can do anything” which really translates to “God should do what I think God should do.” Ironically, that thought process is not much different than Christians who believe that God can do anything so God should do everything for humans, which is ludicrous given God gave humans free will to do our own work.

In what way is it recreated? Also how does that coincide with Science?

The Manifestations of God recreate the world when they appear, as that passage about the Son of Man above says about Jesus: “By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things.” It is not a scientific thing, it is a spiritual thing. Here it is described again:

“One who does not know God’s Messengers, however, is like a plant growing in the shade. Although it knows not the sun, it is, nevertheless, absolutely dependent on it. The great Prophets are spirits suns, and Bahá’u’lláh is the sun of this “day” in which we live. The suns of former days have warmed and vivified the world, and had those suns not shone, the earth would not be cold and dead, but it is the sunshine of today that alone can ripen the fruits which the suns of former days have kissed into life.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 72

That makes perfect sense. I understand your viewpoint now. Progress! Thanks for the patience.

Thank you for your patience in waiting for me to respond.

I will try to get to your other posts in the next few days, barring any more unforeseen circumstances. My life is like that, very stressful and complicated.

 

[Sandra Jayne]

That refers to the dead body. The brain and mind die when the body dies so the dead body knows nothing.

I do not think that proves that nobody goes to heaven. Please not the different translation:

John 3 New King James Version (NKJV)13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a]

Ascending to heaven is not the same as going to heaven and other translations probably say something slightly different.

Besides that, one cannot cherry pick one verse to try to prove that nobody goes to heaven but Jesus because I am sure there are many other verses that would refute that.

Besides that, why would there be a heaven where only Jesus resides? That makes no sense.

I don't believe I did 'cherry pick' I suggested a number of verses not just one.
When Lazarus was resurrected after being dead for four days he made no mention of having gone to heaven, something one would have expected him to be rather excited about and to have at least made some mention of.
Daniel 7:10 A stream of fire was flowing and going out from before him.a A thousand thousands kept ministering to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
Revelations 5:11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads* and thousands of thousands..
There are countless numbers of angels in heaven.

Ascended can also mean to go up.

 

[Sandra Jayne]

It just so happens that over the years I have written a lot about those verses and what they mean from a Baha’i perspective. I saved several versions of posts I have written in a Word document, so I will now have to pick the version I think is best to answer your questions.

First, let me say that you are right on track in your thinking about why so few people find the narrow gate.

The narrow gate was Christianity in the early days of Christianity when it was a new religion because only a few people chose to follow Jesus. But Christianity is not new anymore... Obviously Christianity is not the narrow gate now since many have now entered and one third of people in the world are Christians.

Christians all have different idea about what those verses mean but most of them believe they refer to their particular sect of Christianity, which would make all the other sects false. Some Christians such as JWs believe only a few are chosen and they will be favored when Jesus returns.

In the early days of Christianity and in the early days of every new religion there were only a few followers of the Prophet (Messenger) and most other people said it was nonsense, but eventually those religions grew to be recognized worldwide. The same thing will happen to the Baha’i Faith.

In this new age, the narrow gate is the Baha’i Faith and it is narrow because only a few people recognize and follow God’s new religion in the beginning. That is why the Baha’i Faith is still relatively small.

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

In every new age, the religion at the narrow gate is the new religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

Jesus told us to enter through the narrow gate, the gate that leads to eternal life, and He said few people would find that gate... It is narrow, so it is difficult to get through... It is difficult to get through because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel. That is human nature.

Eventually it won’t matter how small the Baha’i Faith was in the beginning because in the distant future everyone will recognize Baha’u’llah and enter through the same gate, the gate that leads to life. However, those that enter now will have a huge reward in this life and in the afterlife, because they made the effort to look for the narrow gate and they had the courage to walk through it, rather than following the crowd.

So what I kind of comically tell people is that they can get in on the ground floor or they can wait, but unless they are young, I would not recommend waiting too long. On the other hand, nobody should ever believe in a religion out of fear. They should only believe because of the evidence for that religion and because it makes sense to them.

I just created another version to add to my Word document that is already 13 pages long. This is a very important subject worthy of attention.

Sorry but I disagree with pretty much everything you claim and being agnostic I try to be objective. Much in the New Testament is for teaching and a warning for our time, I reiterate there can only be one truth.
For example just imagine if God said "On January 20th 2022 all My people must draw a star on their door so they won't be destroyed for disobeying my law."
Over time the truth becomes corrupted by many for various reasons so on January 20th 2022 some draw a circle on their door, others a triangle or a cross and so forth but those who believed and remained true to the one God put a star on their door.
Whilst all these people believed in God and indeed may even have worshiped Him but nevertheless they will die because they corrupted the word of God and lost sight of the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't believe I did 'cherry pick' I suggested a number of verses not just one.
When Lazarus was resurrected after being dead for four days he made no mention of having gone to heaven, something one would have expected him to be rather excited about and to have at least made some mention of.
Daniel 7:10 A stream of fire was flowing and going out from before him.a A thousand thousands kept ministering to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
Revelations 5:11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads* and thousands of thousands..
There are countless numbers of angels in heaven.

Ascended can also mean to go up.

I do not see any point trying to figure out if there is a heaven by looking at various Bible verses, because Bible verses can be used to prove whatever people want to prove.

Yes, there are angels in heaven because all humans who lived a good life and were close to God died and went to heaven. That's why there are countless numbers of angels in heaven.

I suggest you read this book if you want to know about heaven. It is based on the scriptures.

Heaven and Hell

 

[Sandra Jayne]

Being well educated in the wrong things only works in this world. That kind of education does not mean much to God, who always educated his people in the important things...those that pertain to everyday life. Living the best way possible, "making sure of the more important things".

Jesus had no formal education but even in his youth could run rings around the religious leaders, confounding them with his knowledge and ability to understand the scriptures at a much higher level than they ever could. He deliberately chose uneducated men as his apostles for a good reason.....the education that the Jews received in the rabbinical system was distorted. He castigated the Pharisees for promoting their traditions over scripture. He called their teachings "leaven" (corrupting)

Jehovah's Witnesses receive the best education anyone could ever want or need.....how to live life in this world ruled by satan, without the distractions that lead people away from God rather than to him. (1 John 5:19; 1 John 2:15-17)

One aspect of higher education that many forget is the environment in college campuses, often the scene of immoral, drunken or drug fuelled behavior that should be unacceptable to any Christian. To place our young people in such an environment would be irresponsible to say the least. There are many ways to educate ourselves online these days, so some of our members will gain qualifications for a chosen form of employment through this means, apprenticeships or other on the job training. We do not reject higher education per se, but we do not see it as the be all and end all of life.

How many well educated people can't find a job, so they wait tables and tend bars.

Many of us would rather be window washers or office cleaners and have our days free to serve our God in the important matter of preaching the good news, before the fast approaching "end" to this current world system of things. (Matthew 24:14) Those who are slaves to this world have all their time taken up with mundane things like making money or gaining this world's measure of success, yet what are they slaving for? Most of them never have time to enjoy the things that they sacrifice their time for!

I live in a coastal holiday destination. There is a marina here where millions of dollars worth of water vessels of various descriptions are sitting moored at the dock and rarely see any time out of it. The people who own them have lavish holiday homes here but they are empty for most of the year. What is the point? It seems as if the status of what you own is more important that the calibre of who you are. What foolishness!!



Indeed.....I do not see anyone else doing what we do. There is so much more to being "educated" than this world will ever know. Jesus educated people with God's word.....we try to do that too.



What makes you doubt? Jehovah has been my guide, my friend, and my go-to for any and all problems. I cannot have doubt when I have experienced his hand in my life in more ways than I can count.....

Paul called a lack of faith, "the sin that easily entangles us" and it's easy to see why. Doubt was the thing that undid Eve right at the beginning. Causing doubt has been one of the devil's favourite tactics all along because it works so well for him. He just has to plant that seed and then fertilise and water it.....we don't let him fertilise and water it.

The Bible gives us the best advice and it always works. To the extent that we apply its recommendations, that is the extent to which they work. God gives us back way more that we could ever give to him.....

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry but I disagree with pretty much everything you claim and being agnostic I try to be objective. Much in the New Testament is for teaching and a warning for our time, I reiterate there can only be one truth.

If you are saying that only one religion or holy book can be the truth that is illogical. God is All-Powerful, so God can reveal a new holy book whenever he wants to, and He does. If these holy books contradicted each other that would be a problem, but that is not what we see. We see additional truth being revealed in every new age. The new holy books reiterate former spiritual truths and add to them. Since mankind and the world he lives in are continually evolving, he needs new truth revealed in every new age.

For example just imagine if God said "On January 20th 2022 all My people must draw a star on their door so they won't be destroyed for disobeying my law."
Over time the truth becomes corrupted by many for various reasons so on January 20th 2022 some draw a circle on their door, others a triangle or a cross and so forth but those who believed and remained true to the one God put a star on their door.
Whilst all these people believed in God and indeed may even have worshiped Him but nevertheless they will die because they corrupted the word of God and lost sight of the truth.

You are right. That is exactly what happened, according to my religion. The truth from God gets corrupted by humans over time, and that is one reason God has to send a new Messenger in every new age. The other reason is because we need a new message in every new age, since people and their world change over time.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when 172 the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

 

[Sandra Jayne]

Being well educated in the wrong things only works in this world. That kind of education does not mean much to God, who always educated his people in the important things...those that pertain to everyday life. Living the best way possible, "making sure of the more important things".

Jesus had no formal education but even in his youth could run rings around the religious leaders, confounding them with his knowledge and ability to understand the scriptures at a much higher level than they ever could. He deliberately chose uneducated men as his apostles for a good reason.....the education that the Jews received in the rabbinical system was distorted. He castigated the Pharisees for promoting their traditions over scripture. He called their teachings "leaven" (corrupting)

Jehovah's Witnesses receive the best education anyone could ever want or need.....how to live life in this world ruled by satan, without the distractions that lead people away from God rather than to him. (1 John 5:19; 1 John 2:15-17)

One aspect of higher education that many forget is the environment in college campuses, often the scene of immoral, drunken or drug fuelled behavior that should be unacceptable to any Christian. To place our young people in such an environment would be irresponsible to say the least. There are many ways to educate ourselves online these days, so some of our members will gain qualifications for a chosen form of employment through this means, apprenticeships or other on the job training. We do not reject higher education per se, but we do not see it as the be all and end all of life.

How many well educated people can't find a job, so they wait tables and tend bars.

Many of us would rather be window washers or office cleaners and have our days free to serve our God in the important matter of preaching the good news, before the fast approaching "end" to this current world system of things. (Matthew 24:14) Those who are slaves to this world have all their time taken up with mundane things like making money or gaining this world's measure of success, yet what are they slaving for? Most of them never have time to enjoy the things that they sacrifice their time for!

I live in a coastal holiday destination. There is a marina here where millions of dollars worth of water vessels of various descriptions are sitting moored at the dock and rarely see any time out of it. The people who own them have lavish holiday homes here but they are empty for most of the year. What is the point? It seems as if the status of what you own is more important that the calibre of who you are. What foolishness!!



Indeed.....I do not see anyone else doing what we do. There is so much more to being "educated" than this world will ever know. Jesus educated people with God's word.....we try to do that too.



What makes you doubt? Jehovah has been my guide, my friend, and my go-to for any and all problems. I cannot have doubt when I have experienced his hand in my life in more ways than I can count.....

Paul called a lack of faith, "the sin that easily entangles us" and it's easy to see why. Doubt was the thing that undid Eve right at the beginning. Causing doubt has been one of the devil's favourite tactics all along because it works so well for him. He just has to plant that seed and then fertilise and water it.....we don't let him fertilise and water it.

The Bible gives us the best advice and it always works. To the extent that we apply its recommendations, that is the extent to which they work. God gives us back way more that we could ever give to him.....

What makes you doubt? I really can't answer this question, I want to believe and maybe that concerns me, do I believe because I know there is a god or because I want it to be true?
I ran away from a horrible home life when I was only 15yrs so have always relied on myself, maybe I find it difficult to 'let go' and rely entirely on someone else, in this case God. Nevertheless I get the sense I am being 'called' for want of a better word because it is constantly on my mind. Strangely Jehovah's Witnesses always seem to cross my path, holiday in Portugal they knocked on my door, same when I was in Cyprus and have come into contact with them a couple of times in New Zealand they are most certainly preaching about the Kingdom all over the world.

 

[Sandra Jayne]

If you are saying that only one religion or holy book can be the truth that is illogical. God is All-Powerful, so God can reveal a new holy book whenever he wants to, and He does. If these holy books contradicted each other that would be a problem, but that is not what we see. We see additional truth being revealed in every new age. The new holy books reiterate former spiritual truths and add to them. Since mankind and the world he lives in are continually evolving, he needs new truth revealed in every new age.

You are right. That is exactly what happened, according to my religion. The truth from God gets corrupted by humans over time, and that is one reason God has to send a new Messenger in every new age. The other reason is because we need a new message in every new age, since people and their world change over time.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when 172 the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

 

[Sandra Jayne]

Why would an all powerful god need more than one book containing his word.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6
So if one uses your argument Jesus must have been lying here.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation: 22:18-19

 

[Sandra Jayne]

Something interesting I noticed about this post: "sometimes things are meant to be taken as they are without looking for other explanations." If one doesn't look for alternative explanations for verses then wouldn't that mean you are being biased to one interpretation only? For all you know you could be missing vital information, history and cultural references which might cause a person to have a more accurate understanding.

Also, because of the context I mentioned earlier, I have no reason to think that that verse is referencing anything other than the reality that he sees in front of him. It has nothing to do with commenting on a soul. Proof texting a verse without addressing the context doesn't reveal the true meaning of a verse.

As I said I love Ecclesiastes so I do understand the context and whilst I agree with what you say nevertheless if taken with other scriptures I think it is clear we do not 'have' a soul that drifts of to heaven when we die despite many people wanting this to be the case.
Perhaps one needs to go back in time to find out what is true, God promised Adam and Eve eternal life on Earth so why would He have given them a soul when it is obvious it was never His intention that humankind would 'live' in heaven.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would an all powerful god need more than one book containing his word.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6
So if one uses your argument Jesus must have been lying here.

That was true for the Dispensation of Jesus, Jesus was the Only Way, because in every religious dispensation the Messenger of God who appears is the Way, and He is the Only Way in the sense that He is the Way God wants us to choose.

The Dispensation of Jesus Christ ended when Muhammad came. Muhammad was then "the Way" to come to the Father. People can still come to the Father by way of Jesus, but Jesus is not the Only Way.

Do you think that nobody could get to God before Jesus appeared? What about the Jews? They had Moses, and the Hindus and other religions also had other ways to God.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation: 22:18-19

That is absolutely true. Nobody should add to any holy book after it has been completed. But the Qur'an and the Writings of Baha'u'llah are not additions to the New Testament, they are new revelations from God.

The Old Testament also says that nothing can be added,

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

However, the New Testament is a separate revelation from God, so it is not an addition.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

What makes you doubt? I really can't answer this question, I want to believe and maybe that concerns me, do I believe because I know there is a god or because I want it to be true?
I ran away from a horrible home life when I was only 15yrs so have always relied on myself, maybe I find it difficult to 'let go' and rely entirely on someone else, in this case God. Nevertheless I get the sense I am being 'called' for want of a better word because it is constantly on my mind. Strangely Jehovah's Witnesses always seem to cross my path, holiday in Portugal they knocked on my door, same when I was in Cyprus and have come into contact with them a couple of times in New Zealand they are most certainly preaching about the Kingdom all over the world.

Jehovah is calling you, it seems! He sees something "desirable" in you (Haggai 2:7). That should give you a wonderful feeling, that you are being found by the Angels in different places! Jehovah is actually noticing you...in a good way!
Just come to a meeting, there's no obligation!
Don't expect to find perfect people, but do expect to learn some wonderful teachings!

There is somebody else on here, who studied for a while, then moved way out in the country. But he prayed to Jehovah, and he said the next day, JW's were knocking at his door!

I wish you the best, and hope I can call you, my sister, one day.

 

[Deeje]

Jehovah is calling you, it seems! He sees something "desirable" in you (Haggai 2:7). That should give you a wonderful feeling, that you are being found by the Angels in different places! Jehovah is actually noticing you...in a good way!
Just come to a meeting, there's no obligation!
Don't expect to find perfect people, but do expect to learn some wonderful teachings!

There is somebody else on here, who studied for a while, then moved way out in the country. But he prayed to Jehovah, and he said the next day, JW's were knocking at his door!

I wish you the best, and hope I can call you, my sister, one day.

That goes for me too @Sandra Jayne.

If Jehovah is "drawing" you, then he sees great potential in you. He found you in all those places.....that should be enough to convince you to give him a chance to prove himself to you. He provides the means....we provide the will.

 

[Desert Snake]

First point me to the earliest statement of the Trinity doctrine in its accepted form. I want you to demonstrate to me that it existed before the 4th century CE ─ not just sentences loosely associating the Father, Son and Ghost, but the doctrine itself, that 'mystery in the strict sense'.

It's my argument that no such doctrine is found in, or implied by, the NT, and that to associate it with the NT is a chunky anachronism.

The Spirit is both present via Spirit of God, and is literally related to God interacting with Believers. That is in the OT also.

The ugaritic tablets have changed everything.

The Christian Bible already has a usage of 'gods' for Elohim, actually more than one, however in a basic literal sense. Some of these would be called 'gods of the nations', and often actually just called Angels.

Jesus explicitly states that he has no powers of his own , only those that God allows to him ─

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”​

It follows that even if your list were to make well-based claims, which in my view it doesn't, all of Jesus' qualities would be explicable as powers which God has given his envoy Jesus.
So tell me why ─

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

don't mean that Jesus acknowledges the Father as the only true god, and as the God that Jesus himself worships.

If Jesus means what he says then the Trinity notion is untenable. So don't invoke the doctrine in your explanation.
So you don't know when the Trinity doctrine was invented? You don't know that it didn't exist before the 4th century? Then go and check it out ─ don't take my word for it, satisfy yourself that this statement is correct. (And remember, we're talking about the doctrine, not earlier ideas associating God, Jesus and the Ghost in various ways ─ they were rejected by the church.)
What, with Jesus NEVER ONCE SAYING, I AM GOD! ? With Jesus saying the Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD? And the God Jesus worships? And the only source of Jesus' power, in heaven and on earth? Why on earth would anyone think this meant that Jesus was anything but God's envoy? Why on earth would anyone think the Ghost was 100% of God?
As I said to you before, Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh. Not anywhere. Not even once. I already demonstrated to you that the purported readings of Isaiah are in fact hopelessly inadequate misreadings, perversion of the text. A passage about King Ahaz and his troubles with the kings to his north is NOT a foretelling of Jesus. Nor is the concept of the Trinity doctrine found anywhere in the bible, no mention of it in the Tanakh, no mention of it in the NT. And incidentally, the Tanakh's ruach, the breath / spirit of Yahweh, is a manifestation of Yahweh himself, not of any distinct divine person.
All that is dealt with by my first point above ─ Jesus himself says all his qualities are allowed to him by God, whose envoy he is. (I also dealt with them, or anyway sufficient of them, back in my first reply to you.)

James 1:27
'God and the Father'

Their translation is entirely legitimate. You refuse to listen so you never learn, eh?

Ah well. You had your chance to do the right thing but it didn't appeal to you.

That 'translation' isn't direct at all; the kjv has a few instances of non direct translation, however the words are interchangeable, by their methodology. The translating method you are saying is legitimate is only by so if one agrees with the word change methodology. The KJV is pretty good at maintaining direct correlation, however as mentioned, isn't entirely word specific all the time.
That being said, entirely reinventing of what a word signifies, isn't there.

Personally, I don't really like the modern method , version, of writing LORD, and Lord, elsewhere, however the KJV does maintain methodology in that it doesn't necessarily change direct quote references where that is found, Old Testament, to New Testament.
Matthew 22:37
Matthew 22:42
Matthew 22:45

 

[blü 2]

The Spirit is both present via Spirit of God, and is literally related to God interacting with Believers. That is in the OT also.

As I understand it, the ruach is a manifestation of God, not a different 'person'. In the Trinity doctrine, the Father is not Jesus or the Ghost, and Jesus is not the Ghost. (The doctrine's incoherence arises from the claim that each of them is nonetheless 100% of God and that only one God exists.)

The Christian Bible already has a usage of 'gods' for Elohim, actually more than one, however in a basic literal sense. Some of these would be called 'gods of the nations', and often actually just called Angels.

The evolution of Yahweh from one of many tribal gods to the only god can be traced from the Torah to Isaiah and beyond. The god of the NT is (says Paul) both the god of the covenant with the Jews and the god of everyone else, too. The triune God is not invented till around the 4th century CE.

James 1:27
'God and the Father'

The TR is [παρὰ] τῷ θεῷ καὶ πατρὶ, which is 'god and father', two titles for one being, rather than than two beings. Two beings would be [παρὰ] τῷ θεῷ καὶ τῷ πατρὶ.

That 'translation' isn't direct at all

Ahm, the translation I set out back in #70 is literal and direct; in line 1 is the Greek from the TR and in line 2 each English word is placed directly under the Greek word it translates. I invite you to go back and have a(nother?) look.

 

[Desert Snake]

Ahm, the translation I set out back in #70 is literal and direct; in line 1 is the Greek from the TR and in line 2 each English word is placed directly under the Greek word it translates. I invite you to go back and have a(nother?) look.

Here is a an example, of what one type of translation, differs from another.

Theo=God, Theo=God, Theo=God
Three different verses

As opposed to

Theo=God, Theo=a g-d, Theo=Zeus

Notice how in the first example, although 'god' can mean another god, sometimes, like in the OT, examples of that, the word is the same
Elohim=God
Eloah or elohim, gods, Angels, gods of the nations
Notice how without Specification, and talking about the Biblical God, it means 'the Biblical God', however with specification, such as 'Baal', or 'false god', so forth, it doesn't.
What you seem to unaware of, is that the methodology that changes a 'god' reference, by word, to the Tetragrammaton, does not even claim to be 'direct', it maintains a theory or belief that the Tetragrammaton was actually replaced with the 'god' word, and thusly should be "changed" in the Scripture.
I really doubt you understand the methodology of either the standard translations, or more interpretive translations, or the claimed reasoning for such.

 

[Desert Snake]

Bearing in mind that λόγος can be translated not only as 'word' but in a number of other ways, John 1:1 reads ─

Ἐν....ἀρχῇ......ἦν....ὁ...λόγος..καὶ...ὁ...λόγος..ἦν....πρὸς....τὸν.θεόν.καὶ.θεὸς.ἦν...ὁ...λόγος.
At beginning was the word and the word was towards THE god and god was the word.
​

As you can see, the first mention of god, τὸν θεόν [ton theon, the accusative case of ὁ θεὸς ho theos], is preceded by the definite article τὸν ─ the god, which is the standard Greek expression for 'God' in the NT.

And the second mention of god, θεὸς [theos], has no definite article. This is how old Greek conveys the sense of our indefinite article, and is correctly translated as 'a god'. (That is, were 'the god' intended, it would be ho theos.)

So there's nothing wrong, or even unusual, with the translation.

Wonderful. You do realize that in context, Jesus being 'a god' makes Him the Tetragrammaton, and 'G-d', a separate God, ie not the Tetragrammaton. Of course you didn't realize that, because you keep saying that Jesus worshipped the Tetragrammaton.
In other words, Jesus correlates to the Tetragrammaton aspect of God, the Lord who helped Joshua, so forth.

That's why Jesus is called Lord.

 

[blü 2]

Here is a an example, of what one type of translation, differs from another.

Theo=God, Theo=God, Theo=God
Three different verses

As opposed to

Theo=God, Theo=a g-d, Theo=Zeus

Notice how in the first example, although 'god' can mean another god, sometimes, like in the OT, examples of that, the word is the same
Elohim=God
Eloah or elohim, gods, Angels, gods of the nations
Notice how without Specification, and talking about the Biblical God, it means 'the Biblical God', however with specification, such as 'Baal', or 'false god', so forth, it doesn't.
What you seem to unaware of, is that the methodology that changes a 'god' reference, by word, to the Tetragrammaton, does not even claim to be 'direct', it maintains a theory or belief that the Tetragrammaton was actually replaced with the 'god' word, and thusly should be "changed" in the Scripture.
I really doubt you understand the methodology of either the standard translations, or more interpretive translations, or the claimed reasoning for such.

The Trinity doctrine did not exist when the NT was written and was not invented till the 4th century CE. I really doubt you understand the influence it has nonetheless had on the word choices of even the most careful translators.

If you want to write 'God' in koine Greek, you write ὁ θεὸς.

If you want to write 'a god' in koine Greek, you write θεὸς.

 

[blü 2]

Of course you didn't realize that, because you keep saying that Jesus worshipped the Tetragrammaton.

No, I didn't say that. Paul and Jesus said that eg

1 Corinthians 8:6 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”​

John 20:17 ... I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

And of course as well as saying through Paul and in all four gospels that he wasn't God, Jesus never once says, I am God ─ meaning that were he indeed God then his entire ministry was one long deceit.

Incidentally, my interest is historical, and it's of zero concern to me whether Paul or any of the gospel writers thinks Trinitarian or not. I simply point out that none of the Jesuses they portray is a Trinitarian, not least because the doctrine doesn't exist before the 4th century CE. The Jesus of Paul pre-existed in heaven and created the material world (as the Gnostic demiurge does), hence is called Lord, and the Jesus of John pre-existed in heaven 'before Abraham' and on a number of occasions points out his lack of personal power and his subordination to the Father. By contrast, the Jesus of Mark is an ordinary Jew until God adopts him at his baptism on the model of Psalm 2:7, and the Jesuses of Matthew and Luke are the son of God by the divine insemination of their mother, but none of them has pre-existed. That's simply to observe the obvious, that the NT offers five or more Christologies, not one. But none of them is Trinitarian.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Do you really want to know? Are you all wanting to turn this thread into an inquisition?

No one is really interested in the answers but because you all want to believe the lies and twisted half truths, it's not really worth my time to reply to this stuff. You will believe whatever you like anyway. (Matthew 5:11)

Actually, Deeje, I think that people would be VERY interested in any sort of counter arguments you could invent to show where those statements were lies and/or twisted half truths. A couple of them, in my opinion, seemed slightly exaggerated, but overall the statements are truthful and accurate. And, of course, highly embarrassing for JWs and are things that they don't want the "world" to know.