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Why do men have nipples?

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
I can't understand: How it's not our ancestor and at the same time it's intermediate?
Because it's still within the hominid family tree. It's still related to humans, even though it's not our direct ancestor, and it's location and anatomy provides evidence of our evolutionary past.

It's like if you were trying to figure out your heritage and you had one family member saying your ancestors were from Libya and another saying they were from Pakistan. You start looking into old records and you find a reference to a great-great-great uncle of yours that has a Libyan sounding name. You do a little more research and you get the name of the village where he lived, so you travel there and you find his grave in that village and it has your family name on it and it also says he was born in that village.

Now, this guy isn't your direct ancestor is he? He's actually your great-great-great grandfather's brother. But, all the facts you discovered about this guy lead you to conclude that your ancestry is from Libya. After all, if your distant uncle was born and died in a Libyan village, it's pretty likely that your other family members were from that area as well.

It's the same with Australopithicenes; just because they appear to be our great-great-great uncles rather than our great-great-great grandfathers, that doesn't mean they can't tell us something about our ancestry. In this case, they (along with the rest of the hominid fossil record) tell us that we share a common evolutionary history with other primates. Australopithicenes show a mixture of primitive and "human-like" characteristics, which is exactly what you agreed we should see in an intermediate specimen.

So, I think we've covered this part of our discussion pretty well. I appreciate your acknowledgement that H. Yahya's material on Australopithicenes is incomplete and has some problems with it, and I think we can move on to the next part of what you posted. Ok?
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
Because it's still within the hominid family tree. It's still related to humans, even though it's not our direct ancestor, and it's location and anatomy provides evidence of our evolutionary past.

It's like if you were trying to figure out your heritage and you had one family member saying your ancestors were from Libya and another saying they were from Pakistan. You start looking into old records and you find a reference to a great-great-great uncle of yours that has a Libyan sounding name. You do a little more research and you get the name of the village where he lived, so you travel there and you find his grave in that village and it has your family name on it and it also says he was born in that village.

Now, this guy isn't your direct ancestor is he? He's actually your great-great-great grandfather's brother. But, all the facts you discovered about this guy lead you to conclude that your ancestry is from Libya. After all, if your distant uncle was born and died in a Libyan village, it's pretty likely that your other family members were from that area as well.

It's the same with Australopithicenes; just because they appear to be our great-great-great uncles rather than our great-great-great grandfathers, that doesn't mean they can't tell us something about our ancestry. In this case, they (along with the rest of the hominid fossil record) tell us that we share a common evolutionary history with other primates. Australopithicenes show a mixture of primitive and "human-like" characteristics, which is exactly what you agreed we should see in an intermediate specimen.

So, I think we've covered this part of our discussion pretty well. I appreciate your acknowledgement that H. Yahya's material on Australopithicenes is incomplete and has some problems with it, and I think we can move on to the next part of what you posted. Ok?


You can continue at any time you want but still I can't feel convinced by what you say, it's still vague and can't provide any solid evidence at all.If the austr. posses human like characters and so does apes, so what evidence does this give? Apes have human like characters no doubt but this doesn't prove evolution as posed by the theory. That's because for evolution to occur there must be a gradual transition with many gradual intermediate fossils, which is totally not present. This leaves the theory bare and lacking evidence. As you mentioned before, the austr. isn't intermediate, so there's no proved transition up till now. Even, if there's a similarity, so God created them similar . There's still no solid proof for gradual transition. That's what I say, apes are similar to humans, yet this doesn't prove evolution. The metabolism is similar 4 all animals, but nobody said this is a clear evidence 4 evolution. If the austr. is different from both apes and humans , so what evidence does it give and what does it change?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
If the austr. posses human like characters and so does apes, so what evidence does this give? Apes have human like characters no doubt but this doesn't prove evolution as posed by the theory.
You're speaking in generalities rather than specifics. Do you really think the other apes have human-like characteristics in the same way Australopithicenes do? If so, please describe how.

That's because for evolution to occur there must be a gradual transition with many gradual intermediate fossils, which is totally not present.
No, you agreed that if humans evolved from a non-human, ancient primate, then we should find fossil specimens that show this transition, and that these fossils should show a mix of human and ancient primate characteristics, with the general overall trend being more human-like as we move forward in time?

Australopithicenes fit that pattern, i.e. they show a mix of human and ancient primate characteristics. As we start to discuss other specimens in the fossil record, you'll see that the trend towards more human-like as we move forward in time is there too.

But you can't expect to look at a single fossil specimen and demand that it, by itself, "prove human evolution". You have to consider the record as a whole.

This leaves the theory bare and lacking evidence. As you mentioned before, the austr. isn't intermediate, so there's no proved transition up till now.
So going back to the analogy, you're saying that finding your great-great-great uncle's grave in Libya is not evidence that your family's ancestry is Libyan? Since he's not your direct ancestor, he cannot tell you anything at all about your ancestry? Really?

Even, if there's a similarity, so God created them similar .
Ok, we need to stop right there. If your fallback argument to everything is going to be "Well, God just made it that way", then I really don't want to bother.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
You're speaking in generalities rather than specifics. Do you really think the other apes have human-like characteristics in the same way Australopithicenes do? If so, please describe how.

If you admitted that the Australopithecus are not intermediate and Oxnard said it was different from both humans and apes, so how do you say that it posses human-like characters?
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
No, you agreed that if humans evolved from a non-human, ancient primate, then we should find fossil specimens that show this transition, and that these fossils should show a mix of human and ancient primate characteristics, with the general overall trend being more human-like as we move forward in time?

Australopithicenes fit that pattern, i.e. they show a mix of human and ancient primate characteristics. As we start to discuss other specimens in the fossil record, you'll see that the trend towards more human-like as we move forward in time is there too.

But you can't expect to look at a single fossil specimen and demand that it, by itself, "prove human evolution". You have to consider the record as a whole.

It doesn't appear this way at all, it has distict pelvis different from man but more like apes, small brain capacity more like apes, skull and teeth different from that of humans, knee not able to lock like humans which makes walking in the human pattern so difficult, wide pelvis which also makes walking like humans very hard and energy consuming, rib cage similar to that of apes, knees with angles different from that of humans and necessary for walking upright- taking into consideration that the Orang-utan has the same angle at the knee like humans, yet it's not considered a transition and can't walk like humans-, wrist suitable for knuckle walking and hanging from trees.

So how can it be similar to humans?
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
So going back to the analogy, you're saying that finding your great-great-great uncle's grave in Libya is not evidence that your family's ancestry is Libyan? Since he's not your direct ancestor, he cannot tell you anything at all about your ancestry? Really?

How can I reach the brother of my great great great great great great grandfather, if I don't even know who's my father and the father of my father? It's a great dilemma
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
Ok, we need to stop right there. If your fallback argument to everything is going to be "Well, God just made it that way", then I really don't want to bother.

You didn't understand me, I didn't mean so. I meant that nobody said that adding a new member to the birds family means evolution is true, why not to say that all birds have been created in a similar way by God in a good and fantastic variation that serves both shape and function? Nobody said that a new bird discovered means there's evolution. So, adding a new member to the family of Primates -that is distinct from humans and more similar to apes- is not a clue for the occurrence of evolution.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
If you admitted that the Australopithecus are not intermediate and Oxnard said it was different from both humans and apes, so how do you say that it posses human-like characters?
I stated no such thing, and neither did Oxnard. You need to understand that many paleoanthropologists still argue that at least one of the australopithecine species is our ancestor. As I said before, the problem with the hominid fossil record isn't a lack of intermediates, it's that there's so many of them it's difficult to tell who fits where. There likely will never be total consensus on the arrangement of all these species in our evolutionary tree.

It doesn't appear this way at all, it has distict pelvis different from man but more like apes, small brain capacity more like apes, skull and teeth different from that of humans, knee not able to lock like humans which makes walking in the human pattern so difficult, wide pelvis which also makes walking like humans very hard and energy consuming, rib cage similar to that of apes, knees with angles different from that of humans and necessary for walking upright- taking into consideration that the Orang-utan has the same angle at the knee like humans, yet it's not considered a transition and can't walk like humans-, wrist suitable for knuckle walking and hanging from trees.
Again, you're either missing the point or deliberately avoiding it.

A. anamensis has a skull and teeth that are more primitive, but leg bones that more modern (but not exactly like humans).

A. afarensis has a more primitive skull and face, but has teeth, legs, knees, and a pelvis that are more modern (but not exactly like humans).

A. africanus has the same mixture of features as afarensis, but is somewhat larger.

These species existed 2-4 million years ago and are not that far removed from when the human and chimp lines split from the last common ancestor. Given that, we would expect them to be mostly primitive and more similar to that last common ancestor. They represent the hominid tree's early diversion from primitive ape-like ancestors. You keep pointing out that various features aren't exactly like modern humans, but we wouldn't expect them to, would we? As we discussed earlier, we expect early hominids to be more primitive ape-like.

How can I reach the brother of my great great great great great great grandfather, if I don't even know who's my father and the father of my father? It's a great dilemma
So you're saying that unless you can "reach" every single member of your ancestry and precisely determine his relationship to you, you cannot ever know anything about your ancestry?

I meant that nobody said that adding a new member to the birds family means evolution is true
Evolution is "true" because we see it happen every day, right before our eyes. Every single new trait, feature, ability, and species we've ever seen arise has done so via evolution.

why not to say that all birds have been created in a similar way by God in a good and fantastic variation that serves both shape and function?
So did this god create Sahelanthropus tchadensis, decide he didn't like it, wipe it out, and then create a little bit different Ardipithecus? And then he didn't like that either, so he wiped them out and created a bunch of Australopithicene species, each a little different than the others? But then he didn't like those either, so he wiped all of them out and created H. habilis? And then he was bored with that, so he killed all them and created H. erectus, which were slightly different than habilis? And then after a while, he decided to kill off erectus and created a slightly different species, H. heidelbergensis? But then he tired of them, so he killed them and created the first H. sapiens, which were only slightly different than heidelbergensis? And just for kicks, he created the slightly different H. neanderthalensis alongside sapiens, but then for whatever reason he just killed them off leaving just H. sapiens?

So I have to ask, just what the heck was this god doing? Trial and error? You honestly think that's a better interpretation of the hominid fossil record? Given that all we've ever seen is evolution and we never see any gods creating a single thing, you honestly think the above makes more sense than evolution?

So, adding a new member to the family of Primates -that is distinct from humans and more similar to apes- is not a clue for the occurrence of evolution.
Again, you're not examining these specimens within the context of the overall record. Given the time they existed, we would expect them to be more similar to the primitive ape-like ancestor of humans and chimps, and to only show the first evolutionary steps towards modern humans.

I think it's time we move on to the next set of specimens.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
Again, you're either missing the point or deliberately avoiding it.

A. anamensis has a skull and teeth that are more primitive, but leg bones that more modern (but not exactly like humans).

A. afarensis has a more primitive skull and face, but has teeth, legs, knees, and a pelvis that are more modern (but not exactly like humans).

A. africanus has the same mixture of features as afarensis, but is somewhat larger.

These species existed 2-4 million years ago and are not that far removed from when the human and chimp lines split from the last common ancestor. Given that, we would expect them to be mostly primitive and more similar to that last common ancestor. They represent the hominid tree's early diversion from primitive ape-like ancestors. You keep pointing out that various features aren't exactly like modern humans, but we wouldn't expect them to, would we? As we discussed earlier, we expect early hominids to be more primitive ape-like.

See the video and tell me why are they modern as you claim?
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
I stated no such thing, and neither did Oxnard. You need to understand that many paleoanthropologists still argue that at least one of the australopithecine species is our ancestor. As I said before, the problem with the hominid fossil record isn't a lack of intermediates, it's that there's so many of them it's difficult to tell who fits where. There likely will never be total consensus on the arrangement of all these species in our evolutionary tree.


There's no consensus as there are no concrete facts we can rely upon. It's a matter of fancy and imagination and personal interpretations.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
So did this god create Sahelanthropus tchadensis, decide he didn't like it, wipe it out, and then create a little bit different Ardipithecus? And then he didn't like that either, so he wiped them out and created a bunch of Australopithicene species, each a little different than the others? But then he didn't like those either, so he wiped all of them out and created H. habilis? And then he was bored with that, so he killed all them and created H. erectus, which were slightly different than habilis? And then after a while, he decided to kill off erectus and created a slightly different species, H. heidelbergensis? But then he tired of them, so he killed them and created the first H. sapiens, which were only slightly different than heidelbergensis? And just for kicks, he created the slightly different H. neanderthalensis alongside sapiens, but then for whatever reason he just killed them off leaving just H. sapiens?

You go on assuming that all these creatures are intermediate, yet you didn't give up till now any solid reliable evidence for your claims- as I see-.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
See the video and tell me why are they modern as you claim?
Sheesh, I said they were "more modern", not that they were just like modern humans. As I said, given the time in which the Australopithecines existed, we expect them to be more like the primitive ape-like common ancestor of humans and chimps, than modern humans or anything in the genus Homo. It's exactly what we agreed, i.e. that as we move forward in time, the fossils should become more human-like, and as we move back in time they should be more primitive. Do you understand?

There's no consensus as there are no concrete facts we can rely upon. It's a matter of fancy and imagination and personal interpretations.
These sorts of comments tell me you're not really interested in an open and honest discussion, and that no matter what is presented, you will just wave it all away. You honestly believe that "there are no facts"? The fossils we're talking about don't exist? Paleoanthropologists are just making stuff up?

You go on assuming that all these creatures are intermediate, yet you didn't give up till now any solid reliable evidence for your claims- as I see-.
You didn't answer the question.

So did this god create Sahelanthropus tchadensis, decide he didn't like it, wipe it out, and then create a little bit different Ardipithecus? And then he didn't like that either, so he wiped them out and created a bunch of Australopithicene species, each a little different than the others? But then he didn't like those either, so he wiped all of them out and created H. habilis? And then he was bored with that, so he killed all them and created H. erectus, which were slightly different than habilis? And then after a while, he decided to kill off erectus and created a slightly different species, H. heidelbergensis? But then he tired of them, so he killed them and created the first H. sapiens, which were only slightly different than heidelbergensis? And just for kicks, he created the slightly different H. neanderthalensis alongside sapiens, but then for whatever reason he just killed them off leaving just H. sapiens?

You honestly think that's a better interpretation of the hominid fossil record? Given that all we've ever seen is evolution and we never see any gods creating a single thing, you honestly think the above makes more sense than evolution?​
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
[FONT=&quot]In addition, religions carry everything good to the world. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Keeping in mind the importance of religion and the truth of religion are two completely different things, with either one being able to be true without the other, religion is important because it provides us with rules for living on which we advance our society. It is possible for non-religious people to act by religious morals, but in general they don't, and the ones that do are usually trying to prove that they don't need religion, rather than striving to make the world better. Religion is the hope which motivates the human race to advance itself beyond its current limitations.[/FONT]
Frankly it doesn't seem that anyone acts by morals religious or not. Guilt of anything is an indication that you crossed your own boundaries. So where everyone draws the line, they cross it anyway regardless of why they drew the line in the first place.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
So did this god create Sahelanthropus tchadensis, decide he didn't like it, wipe it out, and then create a little bit different Ardipithecus? And then he didn't like that either, so he wiped them out and created a bunch of Australopithicene species, each a little different than the others? But then he didn't like those either, so he wiped all of them out and created H. habilis? And then he was bored with that, so he killed all them and created H. erectus, which were slightly different than habilis? And then after a while, he decided to kill off erectus and created a slightly different species, H. heidelbergensis? But then he tired of them, so he killed them and created the first H. sapiens, which were only slightly different than heidelbergensis? And just for kicks, he created the slightly different H. neanderthalensis alongside sapiens, but then for whatever reason he just killed them off leaving just H. sapiens?

variation in itself is something great, it gives a clue about the ability of God to great magnificent creatures in various positions and natures, it doesn't mean they have defects. All the created creatures are extremely adapted for their lives. God didn't give the variability because the other creatures are non-functional or incompetent. Moreover, the Cambrian explosion proves that the living creatures with their different variations appaeared at the same time with their all variations and completely developed.
 

Gunfingers

Happiness Incarnate
I like how he went from "I have some doubts as a med student about the scientific validity of evolution" to being a mouthpiece for AiG.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
These sorts of comments tell me you're not really interested in an open and honest discussion, and that no matter what is presented, you will just wave it all away. You honestly believe that "there are no facts"? The fossils we're talking about don't exist? Paleoanthropologists are just making stuff up?

What are these facts?I didn't wave any fact away and I won't do. You saw yourself that once I found that Haroun Yahia had done a fault I confessed that he was wrong. I will never be fanatic-if God wishes-. The video by Doctor Menton showed that what evolutionists declare is not true. They play with science to reach their fancy. I previously explained the impossibility that gradual change would occur just by random mutations. All this doesn't appear to be feasible. You know that you didn't give facts. And you know that I am not weaseling. What you say can be categorized as fancy rather than evidence. Yet, think however you want, I'm ready to comprehend different ideas- if God wishes so-.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
ustralopithecus afarensis is one of the longest-lived and best-known early human species—paleoanthropologists have uncovered remains from more than 300 individuals! Found between 3.85 and 2.95 million years ago in Eastern Africa (Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania), this species survived for more than 900,000 years, which is over four times as long as our own species has been around. It is best known from the sites of Hadar, Ethiopia (‘Lucy’, AL 288-1 and the 'First Family', AL 333); Dikika, Ethiopia (Dikika ‘child’ skeleton); and Laetoli (fossils of this species plus the oldest documented bipedal footprint trails). Similar to chimpanzees, Au. afarensis children grew rapidly after birth and reached adulthood earlier than modern humans. This meant A. afarensis had a shorter period of growing up than modern humans have today, leaving them less time for parental guidance and socialization during childhood.
Au. afarensis had both ape and human characteristics: members of this species had apelike face proportions (a flat nose, a strongly projecting lower jaw) and braincase (with a small brain, usually less than 500 cubic centimeters -- about 1/3 the size of a modern human brain), and long, strong arms with curved fingers adapted for climbing trees. They also had small canine teeth like all other early humans, and a body that stood on two legs and regularly walked upright. Their adaptations for living both in the trees and on the ground helped them survive for almost a million years as climate and environments changed.


copied from:
Australopithecus afarensis


This what Smithsonian site says. Tell me what kind of evidence does this carry. Even walking upright is still doubted as explained in the previous video.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
variation in itself is something great, it gives a clue about the ability of God to great magnificent creatures in various positions and natures, it doesn't mean they have defects. All the created creatures are extremely adapted for their lives. God didn't give the variability because the other creatures are non-functional or incompetent. Moreover, the Cambrian explosion proves that the living creatures with their different variations appaeared at the same time with their all variations and completely developed.
You're still completely avoiding the question. I never said anything about defects, non-function, incompetence, or the Cambrian.

The question is quite simple. Do you think the following is a better interpretation of the fossils than evolutionary theory?

So did this god create Sahelanthropus tchadensis, decide he didn't like it, wipe it out, and then create a little bit different Ardipithecus? And then he didn't like that either, so he wiped them out and created a bunch of Australopithicene species, each a little different than the others? But then he didn't like those either, so he wiped all of them out and created H. habilis? And then he was bored with that, so he killed all them and created H. erectus, which were slightly different than habilis? And then after a while, he decided to kill off erectus and created a slightly different species, H. heidelbergensis? But then he tired of them, so he killed them and created the first H. sapiens, which were only slightly different than heidelbergensis? And just for kicks, he created the slightly different H. neanderthalensis alongside sapiens, but then for whatever reason he just killed them off leaving just H. sapiens?​

What are these facts?
The fossils are facts.

The video by Doctor Menton showed that what evolutionists declare is not true.
Then please post the arguments you find compelling. I'm not going to watch a video, transcribe it, and then write up a rebuttal.

I previously explained the impossibility that gradual change would occur just by random mutations.
Yet we see it happen, all the time, right before our eyes. Why would you have us deny what we see with our own eyes?

What you say can be categorized as fancy rather than evidence.
Are you saying the fossils are made up and don't actually exist?
 
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